Thoughts on the new Space Marine Codex

[WestRider]

The 3 Wyverns cover 50% more area than the 3 Whirlwinds. I'm extrapolating from that to a 50% increase in number of Hits, and thus overall damage, since I'm comparing S4 Ignores Cover Shred for both. Now I think about it more, the Wyverns probably actually have an even greater advantage in damage, especially against small Units, between the greater odds of getting a Hit and being able to put the Marker just where you want it, and the larger number of Blasts. Against a Unit with only 3 Models, for example, the Whirlwinds will get at most 9 Hits, while the Wyverns can potentially rack up 36.

[Guest]

The 3 Wyverns cover 50% more area than the 3 Whirlwinds. I'm extrapolating from that to a 50% increase in number of Hits, and thus overall damage, since I'm comparing S4 Ignores Cover Shred for both. Now I think about it more, the Wyverns probably actually have an even greater advantage in damage, especially against small Units, between the greater odds of getting a Hit and being able to put the Marker just where you want it, and the larger number of Blasts. Against a Unit with only 3 Models, for example, the Whirlwinds will get at most 9 Hits, while the Wyverns can potentially rack up 36.

So, if we assume both move and fire, they cover the same area?

 

As for decisive notes between the two, the ignores cover profile of the Whirlwind is ap5, while the stormshard is ap6. I'd also note that if the target isn't in cover, or just has better saves that arn't cover, the whirlwind is S5. This profile is also ap4.

 

That whirlwind can also hit vehicles and actually do damage against AV10-11 and that Ordnance rule does aid here, even if minorly. Side arc for barrage, so (treating the Ordnance rule as re-roll for math) 4/9 to glance/pen AV10, 7/36 against AV11. Certainly not winning awards for AT, but it's mostly better than those wyverns in this role. And as you say, a common counter to barrage is mounting models in transports.

 

Anyway, this is really a silly argument, as the squadron is 195pts, making it comparable to a Deathstrike or Manticore, of which I think either is a much better option than 3 whirls or wyverns as a unit (don't debate the deathstrike with me, half it's value is the giggles related to fielding such a weapon).

[WestRider]

Why would I move the Wyverns? With 48" Range and decent original Deployment, they can cover pretty much the whole area of the board that matters. Twin-Linking makes them far less dependent on LoS than the Whirlwinds, too.

 

If you're using Whirlwinds to go after Vehicles, something has already gone horribly, horribly wrong with your game plan. With either of those Units, you use something that's actually efficient to pop the Transport, and then slather Blasts all over the dudes who fall out.

[Guest]

Why would I move the Wyverns? With 48" Range and decent original Deployment, they can cover pretty much the whole area of the board that matters. Twin-Linking makes them far less dependent on LoS than the Whirlwinds, too.

 

If you're using Whirlwinds to go after Vehicles, something has already gone horribly, horribly wrong with your game plan. With either of those Units, you use something that's actually efficient to pop the Transport, and then slather Blasts all over the dudes who fall out.

Well, I think one of the strong points of the whirlwind is that it can move and fire. If comparing stationary SM artillery, the wyverns should be compared to the thunderfire cannon, which is a better weapon if moving isn't in the cards.

 

As for vehicle destruction, I agree, it isn't a primary role. But, one of the things the whirlwind can do, is shoot the wyverns/bassilisks hiding out of LOS. An ideal attack would simply force them to snap for a turn and lose a hull point.

 

In general, like the other SM (especially prior to 6th), the whirlwind is above average at everything, but rather unimpressive compared to specialized units. Those Wyverns are certainly superior at stationary barrage anti-personnel.

[generalripphook]

Doesn't cause pinning and requires a non-marine detachement and bunch other minor differences, but yeah, AM does mech-artillery better than SM, no real surprise there. AM's always had better mech-artillery.

Yes it does cause pinning as well.

 

Also a snap causes you to lose 4 blasts...against a whirlwind it loses all its attacks.

[Guest]

Yes it does cause pinning as well.

The AM? They don't cause pinning because GW decided that barrage weapons don't need the pinning rule in 7th. Apparently, sniper rifles are still command respect but barrage just doesn't make people think they want to dive for cover anymore.

[generalripphook]

The AM? They don't cause pinning because GW decided that barrage weapons don't need the pinning rule in 7th. Apparently, sniper rifles are still command respect but barrage just doesn't make people think they want to dive for cover anymore.

Wait no you are right.

[WestRider]

The AM? They don't cause pinning because GW decided that barrage weapons don't need the pinning rule in 7th. Apparently, sniper rifles are still command respect but barrage just doesn't make people think they want to dive for cover anymore.

Snipers don't have Pinning anymore, either.

 

All the things you mention about the Whirlwind are true, but they're things I never feel the need for. Trust me, I love Whirlwinds, I have four, I've been running them since 3nd Ed*. I discount those various abilities because in actual practice, they don't matter 99% of the time, and that 1% is not enough to justify the lack of performance in its primary Role.

 

*I actually got one in 2nd, but my group never managed to figure out how their Indirect Fire Rules were supposed to work in 2nd, so I didn't actually play it until 3rd.

[WestRider]

Wait no you are right.

It's an understandable mistake, tho. The Stormshard has just about every other relevant special rule ;)

[Burk]

WHATS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE???????

 

THE BURK is bringing the psychedelic whirlwind of death to OFCC

 

sack up and grow a pair

 

/THE BURK

[Guest]

Snipers don't have Pinning anymore, either.

Hmmm...checking...Wow....go figure. Less annoyed with the loss of pinning on barrage now .

[pretre]

WHATS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE???????

 

THE BURK is bringing the psychedelic whirlwind of death to OFCC

 

sack up and grow a pair

 

/THE BURK

Is Sylvos' crazy sexually transmitted?

[Burk]

Is Sylvos' crazy sexually transmitted?

nah..its my alter ego..of an egomaniac.....you know my alter-ego....alter

[Doug_L]

This may be a super obvious question but... when you take 2-3 predators, do they form a single squadron type unit?

 

In the entry, it says:

 

Options:

- May take up to two additional predators... 75 points - this doesn't really imply they form a unit but just that they are taken from the same heavy support slot. I will allow that it's the same wording used for Tactical marines and other units and we certainly assume they're the same unit there. The confusing part is that the wording squadron isn't used.

 

Above that is:

 

Killshot:

Whilst this unit contains three predators, all predators in the unit have... - that certainly seems to imply they are a unit or at least are unit when 3 are chosen.

 

I then go back and read the rulebook and it is very explicit that all vehicle units are called "squadrons."

 

Then in the Dark Angels book, the Hammer of Caliban formation comes out and says:

 

Might of the Lion:

All vehicles in this formation must form a single Vehicle Squadron...

 

So that's really straightforward. But what about the predators? Am I reading too much into this - are they a single vehicle squadron or are they separate units under the same heavy support slot?

[InfestedKerrigan]

The Hammer of Caliban has different Types of Vehicles, doesn't it?  Rather than being a unit of 1-3 Predators from a single Unit Entry, it's a mix of multiple Unit Entries, which is why it needs the distinction saying that they are to be treated as a squadron.  

[InfestedKerrigan]

But yes, Predators are purchased in Squadrons of 1-3 per Slot and are treated as Vehicle Squadrons, because they are Vehicle Squadrons.

 

 

It would have said something to the effect of "May purchase up to 2 additional Predators.  Although all Models are deployed at the same time, they act independently during the game" 

[Guest]

This may be a super obvious question but... when you take 2-3 predators, do they form a single squadron type unit?

 

In the entry, it says:

 

Options:

- May take up to two additional predators... 75 points - this doesn't really imply they form a unit but just that they are taken from the same heavy support slot. I will allow that it's the same wording used for Tactical marines and other units and we certainly assume they're the same unit there. The confusing part is that the wording squadron isn't used.

 

Above that is:

 

Killshot:

Whilst this unit contains three predators, all predators in the unit have... - that certainly seems to imply they are a unit or at least are unit when 3 are chosen.

 

I then go back and read the rulebook and it is very explicit that all vehicle units are called "squadrons."

 

Then in the Dark Angels book, the Hammer of Caliban formation comes out and says:

 

Might of the Lion:

All vehicles in this formation must form a single Vehicle Squadron...

 

So that's really straightforward. But what about the predators? Am I reading too much into this - are they a single vehicle squadron or are they separate units under the same heavy support slot?

This one works as written.

 

If the squadron contains 3 "predators" then you get the special rules....Doesn't matter how many land raiders are in the squadron.

 

On a side note, the Hammer of Caliban confers all the special rules of the 3-pred bonus to all units/vehicles in the squadron. So, really, it doesn't do anything for Predators. Those Vindicators and Whirlwinds, on the other hand, are affected by both their 3-man bonus, and that of the hammer of caliban special rules.

[AbusePuppy]

If you take multiple vehicles as a unit- such as the Land Speeder, Predator, Whirlwind, and Vindicator from the SM and DA books- they form a squadron. "Multiple vehicles in a single unit" is the definition of a vehicle squadron.