peter.cosgrove Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 Are the spearhead formations legit for competition.. if so, or not so why. From the 2010 Spearhead warhammer 40k supplement. they keep coming up on Army Builder as legit formations in the Chaos Space Marines Codex but the button to add units hasn't been updated. Also, in there is all the new fortifications kind of mixed and matched so I don't know if it was compiled oddly. http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=85966&d=1270178918 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savion47 Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 Moved to 40k thread so it has a better chance of getting answered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 I don't think it's available for sale on GW or Black Library, which would suggest to me that it is not ITC legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted September 27, 2015 Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 The Spearhead... things are not actually formations by the current rules and are not legal for use in "normal" 40K. In fact, they are only legal when used as part of a game using the Spearhead rules- so not even in Apocalypse, unless otherwise decided by you and your opponent. Not sure why Army Builder would allow you to take them, but not exactly surprised, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 27, 2015 Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 I don't think it's available for sale on GW or Black Library, which would suggest to me that it is not ITC legal. Though those warhammer world formations are not really being sold by GW or black library.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted September 27, 2015 Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 Warhammer World IS GW. Your argument is invalid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 Warhammer World IS GW. Warhammer World is a Convention for GW's products. If they produce special rules it would be entirely reasonable to assume that they are only intended to function within the convention. Lots of events impose their own rules, and it is somewhat unreasonable to assume they carry over to other events. Though on a side note, FW is GW, but for years they were producing rules that weren't allowed in 40k. Heck, special characters didn't used to be allowed in 40k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 Warhammer World is not a convention; it's a retail store/event space. Things they sell there are official GW products. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 Warhammer World is not a convention; it's a retail store/event space. Things they sell there are official GW products. Is that what it is? I can't really make heads or tails of it from their web site. Looks like a convention. It is a UK-only event, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 Is that what it is? I can't really make heads or tails of it from their web site. Looks like a convention. It is a UK-only event, right? It's the store/event space/etc attached to HQ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 http://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/visitor-information/warhammer-world-faq/ How is Warhammer World different to my local Games Workshop? What can I do there?Warhammer World is Games Workshop’s visitor centre, based at our global HQ in Nottingham. Our Empire castle Events Hall welcomes thousands of gamers each year, and you can battle on our dramatic gaming tables. We have an Exhibition with 5 exhibition areas packed full of miniatures and displays, including miniatures you know and love form our publications. You can browse 3 retail stores, including the Warhammer World store, and the world’s first and only Forge World and Black Library stores. Because of our location, our Retail Store is the only one to provide a same day service for almost anything available in stock on the website! Here too you’ll find the fabled Bugman’s bar, purveyor of excellent food and drink and provider of exclusive souvenirs. Warhammer World truly is the home of the hobby! - See more at: http://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/visitor-information/warhammer-world-faq/#sthash.UfqQhiFY.dpuf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 I'm going to call BS. Rules that aren't even being sold to the USA, are supposed to be intended for normal 40k games in the USA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 I'm going to call BS. Rules that aren't even being sold to the USA, are supposed to be intended for normal 40k games in the USA? They are the same as 'out of print' rules and other sources that are still legal. Not to mention, FW is not sold in the US as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 They are the same as 'out of print' rules and other sources that are still legal. Not to mention, FW is not sold in the US as well. And FW isn't allowed everywhere. Many groups limit it, others ban it. And with FW, you can buy their rules directly from FW, via their website. They will ship to the US, even if they don't have a US store. Warhammer World rules are not sold online (by GW), is not sold in the USA, is not sold by GW to the USA via shipping or webstore, why exactly would the rules apply? If I got a the german version of a codex and wanted to use it because it had a better wording (in my favor) of a particular rule, would this be allowed? I would think the answer would be no, because it isn't intended for the USA's version of 40k. As for 'out of print' rules, I'm not sure which you are referring to. Do you mean the digital only? Or do you mean truly out of print rules, like those movie marines or the VDR rules? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 And from a practical standpoint, games of 40k should be even in the sense that all players have access to the same rules. Even if their army can't use the rules, a player should be able to acquire the rules of their opponent's armies without much effort. You should not have to go on Ebay or illegally torrent rules (or fly to another country) just to prepare for your opponent's potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisruptiveConduct Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 Are we even talking about the spearhead formation? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 Are the spearhead formations legit for competition.. if so, or not so why. From the 2010 Spearhead warhammer 40k supplement. they keep coming up on Army Builder as legit formations in the Chaos Space Marines Codex but the button to add units hasn't been updated. Also, in there is all the new fortifications kind of mixed and matched so I don't know if it was compiled oddly. http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=85966&d=1270178918 Pretty sure spearhead is it's own variant of 40k. So while you could still use them in a spearhead event, they aren't intended to function outside of a spearhead game. Since ITC doesn't make spearhead games, it's not going to be legal. In a similar respect, the planetstrike rules are also intended as their own variant of 40k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 I don't allow people to use any models that they didn't purchase from me, personally- they may have been sold at an official Games Workshop store somewhere, but they were clearly only intended for use at that particular GW store and nowhere else. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter.cosgrove Posted September 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 Spearhead formations were the first formations. It was the first cohesive document in the whole game that said "take a FOC that looks like this and you can get this benefit from it" So, while I understand the whole out of print/not currently on sale (currently sourced) discussion point (because the ITC rules I have found state that it has to be available for sale from GW/FW to be usable), I don't think the "spearhead is spearhead" works because the thought process of "normal mission/normal FOC" means that no formations can be used. The normal game rules have to already be modified to use formations, so someone would then have to say " you can use any formations except the formations that are documented in the white dwarf issue 366, because there are a lot of formations listed throughout GW/White Dwarf after issue 366 that are ALSO spearhead formations. In the current Space Marines codex, pg 182, is a Land Raider Spearhead formation, so saying you can't use spearhead formations you are saying you can't use that spearhead formation in the current sourced codex. I also don't think the "currently sourced" thought process would work if I could still call up GW and ask them if I can purchase an out of print copy of issue 366, because the rules say currently sourced, so if I can still buy it from GW I can still use it. I also don't think the "in print during 7E only" would work either because the CSM codex is 6th Edition which means you can't use the entire codex. The BRB states that the benefit to having a battle forged army "as a reward for adhering to these requirements, each detachment grants it's own Command Benefits" and "If you opt to choose an army using this method, your units are organized into Detachments" and "you will find further Detachments to use in your games of Warhammer 40k in our codexes and other Games Workshop publications" and "formations are a special type of detachment" and "It is not uncommon for them (sic Formations) simple to describe a number of special rules" So the spearhead rules were written so you could use formations before there were any rules for using formations, and these rules were for spearhead formations. We have the newest set of spearhead formations in the most recent codexes and White Dwarf 366 is a GW publication. So if I could call up GW and purchase an out of print copy of WD 366 then what additional restriction would limit the use of the formations described in WD 366 according to the current BRB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 So the spearhead rules were written so you could use formations before there were any rules for using formations, and these rules were for spearhead formations. We have the newest set of spearhead formations in the most recent codexes and White Dwarf 366 is a GW publication. So if I could call up GW and purchase an out of print copy of WD 366 then what additional restriction would limit the use of the formations described in WD 366 according to the current BRB? Don't do that. Just go to WOW and look at a copy in our library. Should have that one. No need to pay GW for anything. As for their use in normal games. The magazine is from 2010, 7th edition is much later than that. You'll probably meet resistance in an event. You might also meet it in casual play. Really depends what rules those formations confer to your army and how game breaking it is. Technically speaking, there isn't a written rule that requires the current codex to be used in normal play. That said, expect resistance both to the concept of using clearly outdated rules, and resistance in-game, as GW power creep tends to make older rules obsolete. As a final note, formations require models of the exact name for their requirements. Many times, dated formations cease to work unless your opponent is willing to houserule an "equivalent" unit for one of the units that doesn't exist as such anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Note that Spearhead Formations do occupy an FOC slot on the Unique Detachment FOC used for Spearhead Missions. They are designated as "Spearhead Formations", and are part of that FOC, not designated as "Formations", for general use. They're like the other big class of "restricted" Formations, Apocalypse Formations, which were also forerunners of the more general Formations that we're more familiar with, and are likewise not usable outside of their intended environment. Also note that the Land Raider Spearhead Formation is not a Spearhead Formation. It is a regular Formation titled "Land Raider Spearhead", not a Land Raider "Spearhead Formation". It has the general Formation symbol on the Datasheet, instead of the Spearhead Formation symbol, and is designated for use in regular 40K. EDIT: Actually, pulling up the .pdf and reading through it again, not only does it specify that they're only for use in Spearhead Games, but it never actually refers to them as "Formations" of any kind. They're simply called "Spearheads", and there is no provision in 7th Ed 40K for the inclusion of "Spearheads" in a List. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Thanks for coming, folks! Remember to tip your server! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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