Elvensword Khorne kin list ideas

[Skkipper]

So I am chewing through Khorne kin list ideas and am at a loss.

Khorne items I have

Lord of skulls

24 crushers

50 some letters

100 cultists

100 berzerkers

2 mauler fiends

6 dreads

8 fleshhounds

Demon princes and bloodthirsters

Lords galore

20 termis

Land raiders

Hell drake

20Raptors

10 possessed

Skull cannon

Firestorm redoubt

Plasma obliterator

 

 

I was thinking about fast stuff to cover the board quickly to smash face or load up on shooting from the plasma oblit and lord of skulls and make people come to me.

 

Torn. I haven't played since ofcc. So probably will put both lists together and go have some rest games.

[WestRider]

Dude. You need more Flesh Hounds. Best Unit in the Dex.

 

From my own experience, the fast version is more fun to play, and does a better job of grabbing Objectives.

[Guest]

Do kills from the Plasma Obliterator count towards the Blood Tithe? If not, I'd defintitely drop it. As is, probably too many points when combined with a lord of skulls. 

 

I'd also get more Skull Cannons. Easily one of the best units for the army, and easily overlooked. BS5 S8 large blast that ignores cover mounted on what is basically a dreadnought chasis. Plus, adds a token to the enemy hit where models assaulting them don't take penalties to assault, which is pretty huge because because most of the daemon models lack assault grenades (Including the Lord of Skulls). Skull cannons are probably the hardest counter unit for Genestealer Cults.

 

For the list, I think it depends how you want to represent Khorne at this event. That codex is pretty solid in terms of options. You could even make an entirely long range daemonkin army and really throw off the opponent's understanding of what Khorne is all about. I suppose you should probably pick a general range (long, mid, or shot) you want to fight at, then select models according to that. 

 

@West: I think the flesh hounds are lacking in a pure Khorne Daemonkin army. Decent, but they don't bring anything that isn't already common in the daemonkin codex. And those collars are pretty limited in their current incarnation, since Khorne has no method of generating additional dispel dice. The Chaos Daemon versions are still the same, basically, but they don't get the same relic access and don't have other characters to cast psychic powers to boost them. 

[Lord Hanaur]

Ambassadors in all cases will want to be cognizant of this mission.

Secure the Escape Tarmac and Break their Force Cohesiveness

[WestRider]

@West: I think the flesh hounds are lacking in a pure Khorne Daemonkin army. Decent, but they don't bring anything that isn't already common in the daemonkin codex. And those collars are pretty limited in their current incarnation, since Khorne has no method of generating additional dispel dice. The Chaos Daemon versions are still the same, basically, but they don't get the same relic access and don't have other characters to cast psychic powers to boost them. 

They're fast without a Transport, Fearless, and dirt cheap for their durability and damage output. You need to have other stuff with them to handle heavier Vehicles and some stuff with 2+Svs, but they're a rock solid basis for a list. There are other things that are as fast, there are other things that are tougher, there are other things that hit harder, but nothing in the Dex combines those characteristics as cheaply and efficiently as Flesh Hounds. I have like 50 of them, and I kind of still want more.

[Guest]

They're fast without a Transport, Fearless, and dirt cheap for their durability and damage output. You need to have other stuff with them to handle heavier Vehicles and some stuff with 2+Svs, but they're a rock solid basis for a list. There are other things that are as fast, there are other things that are tougher, there are other things that hit harder, but nothing in the Dex combines those characteristics as cheaply and efficiently as Flesh Hounds. I have like 50 of them, and I kind of still want more.

Fast without a transport, but also unable ride in transports. All the khorne daemons are fearless. And in the khorne daemonkin army, I can put bloodletters in rhinos or land raiders. They also don't have character models, which does matter to Khorne daemonkin because it means less blood tithe points. I can even attach ICs to the unit, ICs which are not daemons.

 

And regarding speed, almost all the daemons can deep strike, so if speed really is the main objective, I'd rather have rhinos and bloodletters than Flesh hounds.

 

For cost, 8 bloodletters (with character) and a rhino is 120pts. 8 flesh hounds is 128pts.

 

Now the rhino isn't dedicated, so it's a waste in that respect. Plus they can't assault out. Still, probably worth it.

[Lord Hanaur]

The hounds are awesome.  Soooo so awesome.  Real awesome.  Like really super awesome.  There's more awesomes that i could express but I'm like...tired from all the awesomeness they are.

[AbusePuppy]

Hmmm. Unfortunately with the models there I think that there are a couple things you're missing to really take advantage of Daemonkin's big strengths. You could build an alright list out of it, and one that would threaten some armies, but there will be others that you really struggle with. The Lord of Skulls is a reasonable unit and depending on how you kit him he can be a nightmare for some factions (that Hellstorm flamer is just brutal), but at the same time he is a huge investment of points and isn't nearly as resilient as he might seem at first glance.

 

Maulerfiends and Skull Cannons give you some good backups in the list, bringing a host of other armor value units to overwhelm enemy guns, but having only two Fiends and one Cannon is a big limiter. Similarly, only eight Hounds is problematic, since they would normally be excellent for supplementing an all-aggression list.

 

Bloodletters are pretty reasonable troop choices and I imagine that 2-3 squads of them would be solid inclusions in any list; Cultists aren't bad, but are less useful in Daemonkin than they are in CSM. Berzerkers have several good formations in CSM these days, but I don't believe they have anything specific in Daemonkin- or at least nothing that we have access to, since the one formation I'm aware of is a Forge World release and thus can't be used at the Elvensword.

 

The Heldrake and Bloodthirsters are both pretty solid units and would be well worth including. The 'Drake in particular can answer a number of things nothing else in the codex can, which is useful- investing 300+ pts into the Firestorm Redoubt just to shoot down airplanes feels like a bit of a weak option in a Daemonkin army, I think.

 

I've never seen Bloodcrushers used particularly well, but the formation of them + Terminators is actually fairly decent I think, so if you have any Termie squads then that could be an option? The Elvensword's rules about Decurions are a bit limiting, but it might be worth looking at. Drop in, fire off a bunch of Combi-Meltas and then hopefully be ready to assault next turn while they're dealing with your other fast stuff.

 

Do kills from the Plasma Obliterator count towards the Blood Tithe? If not, I'd defintitely drop it. As is, probably too many points when combined with a lord of skulls. 

 

I'd also get more Skull Cannons. Easily one of the best units for the army, and easily overlooked. BS5 S8 large blast that ignores cover mounted on what is basically a dreadnought chasis. Plus, adds a token to the enemy hit where models assaulting them don't take penalties to assault, which is pretty huge because because most of the daemon models lack assault grenades (Including the Lord of Skulls). Skull cannons are probably the hardest counter unit for Genestealer Cults.

 

I believe they do- a model firing an emplaced weapon counts as shooting their own gun for all intents and purposes, so the unit inside the Obliterator would be the one that is technically scoring the kills. It could be fairly nasty if you had a Herald of Khorne shooting it, but it'd still be quite expensive in any case.

 

I feel like the Skull Cannon is pretty "meh" unless you're running the formation with three of them that adds Ignores Cover and Apocalyptic Blast. And yeah, that shot is dangerous, but it's also pretty easy to disrupt (or ignore) for a lot of armies.

 

Ambassadors in all cases will want to be cognizant of this mission.

Secure the Escape Tarmac and Break their Force Cohesiveness

 

The thing to remember about this mission is that while distributing your points across many different battlefield roles means you don't automatically give up points for a particular, it also means that you will have fewer units in any given battlefield role and thus makes it easier for the enemy to kill those particular units and thus claim the points anyways. I generally take it as a matter of course that my lists will lose out on one slot automatically, and even having two that you're missing isn't unbearable if the rest of your list is appropriately resilient.

 

It is a significant deterrent to taking a fortification and/or Lord of War, however.

 

 

They're fast without a Transport, Fearless, and dirt cheap for their durability and damage output. You need to have other stuff with them to handle heavier Vehicles and some stuff with 2+Svs, but they're a rock solid basis for a list. There are other things that are as fast, there are other things that are tougher, there are other things that hit harder, but nothing in the Dex combines those characteristics as cheaply and efficiently as Flesh Hounds. I have like 50 of them, and I kind of still want more.

 

Yeah, Flesh Hounds are one of the best units that Daemonkin have access to. Point-for-point they are as resilient as a Space Marine or better and they are a great way to deliver a killy HQ unit, control the enemy's access to the board, etc, etc.

[Guest]

II feel like the Skull Cannon is pretty "meh" unless you're running the formation with three of them that adds Ignores Cover and Apocalyptic Blast. And yeah, that shot is dangerous, but it's also pretty easy to disrupt (or ignore) for a lot of armies.

The formation doesn't add Ignores cover, skull cannons normally have it. The formations lowers the AP (normally ap5, I think the formation makes it ap3) and boosts the blast size by one step. So against vehicle targets, the formation adds nothing except a larger blast.

 

S8 ignores cover on a large blast is pretty impressive alone. BS 5 is nice too.

 

The vehicle can also deep strike, which should not be overlooked. And that deep strike can be reduced to nothing, if within 6" of a Banner of Blood (since he's a khorne daemon). Also, as a chariot, he is immune to becoming immobilized, which is a pretty slick feature in my book, especially when debating if you should deep strike your vehicle.

[Guest]

The Heldrake and Bloodthirsters are both pretty solid units and would be well worth including. The 'Drake in particular can answer a number of things nothing else in the codex can, which is useful- investing 300+ pts into the Firestorm Redoubt just to shoot down airplanes feels like a bit of a weak option in a Daemonkin army, I think.

That Soulgrinder has an AA weapon by default (Harvester Cannon). And two of the Bloodthirsters do have some rather nice whippy weapons which can function as low ap AA weapons while they fly. Plus both the Forgefiend and the Lord of Skulls can field those Hades weapons with enough S8 volume fire to reliably hit airborne targets. And then that drake, of course (who can also take a hades weapon, if you don't want to exclusively rely on their vector to hit flyers.).

 

Khorne Daemonkin are actually very well equipped to deal with flyers (not as good as TAU, but easily as good as space marines). Only shame is the lack of flakk missiles for the helbrutes and chaos marines.

[AbusePuppy]

He doesn't have any Soul Grinders, though, so that's a bit of a moot point.

 

And yeah, I forgot that the Skull Cannon gains AP3 from its "mega-blast" formation, not the Ignores Cover. Ignores Cover with only AP5 is a lot less impressive, although not completely useless.

[WestRider]

Fast without a transport, but also unable ride in transports. All the khorne daemons are fearless. And in the khorne daemonkin army, I can put bloodletters in rhinos or land raiders. They also don't have character models, which does matter to Khorne daemonkin because it means less blood tithe points. I can even attach ICs to the unit, ICs which are not daemons.

 

And regarding speed, almost all the daemons can deep strike, so if speed really is the main objective, I'd rather have rhinos and bloodletters than Flesh hounds.

 

For cost, 8 bloodletters (with character) and a rhino is 120pts. 8 flesh hounds is 128pts.

 

Now the rhino isn't dedicated, so it's a waste in that respect. Plus they can't assault out. Still, probably worth it.

Why would they need to ride in a Transport? They're basically as fast as any of the KDK Transports, more durable to massed mid-range firepower than the Rhino+Bloodletters per Point (e.g. the number of Scatter Laser shots that will wipe the Rhino and Letters on average will leave the Hound Unit you compared them to with 2 Wounds), and can continue being fast even on Turns after they Deep Strike. Go MSU, and Blood Tithe management really isn't an issue.

 

I do take Bloodletters as well, and they are useful for Deep Striking in and sitting on an Objective, but they don't really accomplish much beyond that. Flesh Hounds are MVP, almost every Game.

[Guest]

Why would they need to ride in a Transport? They're basically as fast as any of the KDK Transports, more durable to massed mid-range firepower than the Rhino+Bloodletters per Point (e.g. the number of Scatter Laser shots that will wipe the Rhino and Letters on average will leave the Hound Unit you compared them to with 2 Wounds), and can continue being fast even on Turns after they Deep Strike. Go MSU, and Blood Tithe management really isn't an issue.

 

I do take Bloodletters as well, and they are useful for Deep Striking in and sitting on an Objective, but they don't really accomplish much beyond that. Flesh Hounds are MVP, almost every Game.

Definitely depends on the opponent. Some opponents cope with vehicles better than others. Main value of the rhino is if the opponent has lots of S3 or S4 shooting (like bolters or lasguns). You can also use the rhino as a LOS shield, rather than transporting the unit - doesn't solve the speed issues, but can be useful in its own right. 

 

Even if you take a transport for the bloodletters, you can still deep strike them, so no loss there. Destroying the Rhino does grant the KDK player a blood tithe point, if the unit is going to be wiped out anyway, I'd much rather get 2 blood tithe points. 

[pretre]

Are there armies who can't pop rhinos nowadays?

[Guest]

He doesn't have any Soul Grinders, though, so that's a bit of a moot point.

 

And yeah, I forgot that the Skull Cannon gains AP3 from its "mega-blast" formation, not the Ignores Cover. Ignores Cover with only AP5 is a lot less impressive, although not completely useless.

ap3 and ap5 are the same against vehicles. S8 and ignores cover is a pretty solid option for shooting at vehicles, especially skimmers. And ignores cover is pretty useful against armies with easy 2+ cover access (tyranids, IG vets, Dark Angels, SM and Aegis lines), even if it doesn't deny their armor save.  

[WestRider]

Any Army that can't crack a Rhino is going to get roflstomped by my MaulerFiends. And, again, I rarely have problems with generating enough Blood Tithe. I prefer it to come from my Opponent's Units anyhow ;)

[Skkipper]

On a look into my miniatures cabinet I have 3 maulerfiends and 2 soulgrinders.

Zero rhinos because I hate rhinos.

 

 

 

He doesn't have any Soul Grinders, though, so that's a bit of a moot point.

 

And yeah, I forgot that the Skull Cannon gains AP3 from its "mega-blast" formation, not the Ignores Cover. Ignores Cover with only AP5 is a lot less impressive, although not completely useless.

[Guest]

Any Army that can't crack a Rhino is going to get roflstomped by my MaulerFiends. And, again, I rarely have problems with generating enough Blood Tithe. I prefer it to come from my Opponent's Units anyhow ;)

Totally agree, but if you present enough vehicles targets, most opponents will have to choose if they rather engage your maulerfiends or the rhinos. More so the case with land raiders. 

[AbusePuppy]

ap3 and ap5 are the same against vehicles. S8 and ignores cover is a pretty solid option for shooting at vehicles, especially skimmers. And ignores cover is pretty useful against armies with easy 2+ cover access (tyranids, IG vets, Dark Angels, SM and Aegis lines), even if it doesn't deny their armor save.  

 

Eh, a single S8 shot really doesn't scare vehicles very much. It takes you, what, four turns to kill a single Rhino? Not exactly the most exciting use of your 120pt cannon. And yes, being able to ignore cover is great against Ravenwing and handful of other units even when you don't penetrate their armor save, but all in all it's not a huge ability in that respect.

 

 

On a look into my miniatures cabinet I have 3 maulerfiends and 2 soulgrinders.

Zero rhinos because I hate rhinos.

 

That does help. Rhinos aren't really necessary, although they could sorta maybe have some use here- but honestly, I don't think you really need them at all, and they wouldn't be on my list of "ideal" units in the first place.

 

If you can, I would look to be adding two Skull Cannons or a big ol' horde of Flesh Hounds to your army. There are lots of cheaper alternatives to the standard Flesh Hounds if you're willing to do that, and as West says they are a unit that will almost always be golden for you. Fast, reasonably killy, and great for delivering a character on a Juggernaut or bike.

 

Failing that, you could do either some kind of "Lord of Skulls + lots of walkers" list or possibly a "just so many Bloodletters, you guys" army. I don't think the latter would perform all that well in the objective missions, though.

[Skkipper]

Will there be any knights at the elven sword? because that is the biggest weakness for the Khornedozer.

[Lord Hanaur]

Stompa, Stormsurge or (maybe?)Brass Scorpion are possible.

[WestRider]

How is the Brass Scorpion possible? I thought FW was banned.

[InfestedKerrigan]

FW is the Greater Brass Scorpion.

 

 

GW has the Brass Scorpion kitbash of two Defilers.

[WestRider]

FW is the Greater Brass Scorpion.

 

 

GW has the Brass Scorpion kitbash of two Defilers.

Where are the Rules for that? I haven't seen them since like 4th Ed.

[Lord Hanaur]

Hellforged Hunting Pack includes one yes?  I think it does....  Rory plays with one sometimes but I can't say that i am overly familiar with it since he's like the only person i know who does it.