Gathering Storm - Cadia Drift - Third Book Coming?

[WestRider]

15 hours ago, AbusePuppy said:

I'd take the Fearless that half the legions get over ATSKNF.

Agreed on the VV weapon pricing, though.

Only a third of them, excepting specific circumstances (Iron Warriors in forts, Word Bearers near a Dark Apostle), and they're not the Legions that really like Chosen. All my Chosen Squads are for Legions that don't get Fearless :P

@LordHanaur: I've always seen Seize as a mitigation of Alpha Strikes (other than Drop Pods). If they get the first Turn and Deploy like it's guaranteed, they're setting themselves up for the potential of a serious reversal.

[Lord Hanaur]

if you know its coming you can avoid it with strategic deployment, not some random roll.  And now it wont be random.  So....

[WestRider]

Strategic Deployment can include being ready to take advantage if you do manage to Seize. It's not the expectation that you will. It's what the possibility does to the Alpha Striker's Deployment calculations.

[Lord Hanaur]

Its circular thinking.  ULTIMATELY the alpha striking stuff is going to alpha strike.  

 

You choises are:  Choose to go second and make it irrelevant but that actually doesn't "solve" the advantage of alpha striking it just concedes it.    The other choice is to roll off and have the alpha strike happen because it seized...  in which case you are forced every single time to deploy AS IF you're going second which again underlines the value of the super alpha stuff.  This is the pressure the Alpha strikes put on you, and is advantaged unnecessarily.

You've already rolled for first turn.  That was a roll. Random and fair.  You should both agree that was fair and move on.  It forces the alpha guy to consider that perhaps some list variety would be wise.  The game is better for it when no one can just line up like this Warlord allows you to and have to make absolutely ZERO concession to the idea of going second.  The good of the game isnt served, it seems to me, but it also is just an added roll for a decision that was fairly made that I object to.

I'm not exactly saying anything new nor anything any thinking person hasn't considered.  Seizing initiative just makes it less fun for one of the players.  when it happens three times in a row, as it did for me for example, its just so wearying.  So I find it hard to be excited or supportive of the mechanic if it causes that "eye rolling feeling" inside you that says "ugh, fine, geez...".  No one enjoys that feeling and no one thinks the initial roll off isnt fair.  So since everyone agrees that the roll off is fair and that it creates a really negative experience for the other guy when it happens...  meh.

And now +4.  You don't see how that would be quite frustrating?  it would be one thing if going second was somewhat of an advantage.  it used to be.  Then this wouldnt be the issue it is.  But the ITC says you dont score things until the beginning of your turn.  So going second doesn't even provide you that advantage.

I'm expounding on this just so you can appreciate the argument.  I dont expect anything to change by saying it obviously.  Maybe 8th will see it done away with.  Who knows.

 

 

[pretre]

From Atia:

[pretre]

And more:

[WestRider]

45 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said:

Its circular thinking.  ULTIMATELY the alpha striking stuff is going to alpha strike.  

 

You choises are:  Choose to go second and make it irrelevant but that actually doesn't "solve" the advantage of alpha striking it just concedes it.    The other choice is to roll off and have the alpha strike happen because it seized...  in which case you are forced every single time to deploy AS IF you're going second which again underlines the value of the super alpha stuff.  This is the pressure the Alpha strikes put on you, and is advantaged unnecessarily.

You've already rolled for first turn.  That was a roll. Random and fair.  You should both agree that was fair and move on.  It forces the alpha guy to consider that perhaps some list variety would be wise.  The game is better for it when no one can just line up like this Warlord allows you to and have to make absolutely ZERO concession to the idea of going second.  The good of the game isnt served, it seems to me, but it also is just an added roll for a decision that was fairly made that I object to.

 

You're missing my point. I'm not talking about the Alpha Strike Player Seizing. I'm talking about them getting Seized on. If the Alpha Strike Player wins the roll to go first, they have to be careful how aggressively they Deploy, because getting Seized on can absolutely wreck them. If there's no Seize and they get First Turn, the Game is pretty much set by the Deployments, and actually Playing it out is often more or less irrelevant.

[pretre]

Voldus:
Gear:
- Terminator Armour
- Storm Bolter
- Frag grenades
- Krak grenades
- psyk-out-grenades
- Iron Halo

Special rules:
- Aegis
- TSKNF
- Preferred enemy (demons)
- purity of spirit
- Psyker ML3
- Independent character

BEGABUNG DES KRIEGSHERRN = Talent of the warlord
Voldus gets an additional psy-power from the discipline daemonology (sanctic).

Psyker:
Dämonologie (Erhaben) = daemonology (sanctic); Prophetie = Divination; the others should be clear

Weapon: Melee, daemonbane, concussive, force, special weapon

Victrix Guard
Auserwählte des Primarchs = Chosen of the Primarch: Roboute can take look out sir if a unit of that formation is within 3" of him.
Kämpfende Halbgötter = Fighting demi-gods: Add 1 to WS and BS to all models of this formation.
Can´t take dedicated transports.

Detachment
- Obj. sec. for all non-vehicles
- can use each of the doctrines (tac, assault, dev); and those can be taken in any combination within one turn.
- reroll warlord traits

Cypher
Gear:
- Frag grenades
- Krak grenades

Special rules:
- TSKNF
- Eternal Warrior
- Infiltrate
- Shroud
- Fleet
- Independent character
- Hit & run

[Threejacks]

Reading other forums and some are saying this Gathering Storm stuff is leading to a June reboot of the game..any truth to that?

 

 

[Lord Hanaur]

4 hours ago, WestRider said:

You're missing my point. I'm not talking about the Alpha Strike Player Seizing. I'm talking about them getting Seized on. If the Alpha Strike Player wins the roll to go first, they have to be careful how aggressively they Deploy, because getting Seized on can absolutely wreck them. If there's no Seize and they get First Turn, the Game is pretty much set by the Deployments, and actually Playing it out is often more or less irrelevant.

I don't see that.  A person who thinks they are going first...deploys accordingly. the person going second knows it and deploys accordingly.  This person is essentially the "defender" in the story.  So let it be what it is.  Even if you are the Pod army for example and you roll and decide you want to go first and then they seize...that doesnt really change what I am saying because either way its BAD for one of the players and its really just re-rolling a roll.  No point to it in my estimation.  +4 makes it absurd to bother going first.  You wont be so why show your hand?  Honestly its just not great for the game.  Nothing I can do about it but since the Warlord trait is now an issue, its going to naturally come up for discussion.

[pretre]

1 hour ago, Threejacks said:

Reading other forums and some are saying this Gathering Storm stuff is leading to a June reboot of the game..any truth to that?

 

 

You know as much as they do. ;)

 

no solid rumors yet yet but there is a locked date on June for something, allegedly. 

[WestRider]

3 hours ago, Lord Hanaur said:

I don't see that.  A person who thinks they are going first...deploys accordingly. the person going second knows it and deploys accordingly.  This person is essentially the "defender" in the story.  So let it be what it is.  Even if you are the Pod army for example and you roll and decide you want to go first and then they seize...that doesnt really change what I am saying because either way its BAD for one of the players and its really just re-rolling a roll.  No point to it in my estimation.  +4 makes it absurd to bother going first.  You wont be so why show your hand?  Honestly its just not great for the game.  Nothing I can do about it but since the Warlord trait is now an issue, its going to naturally come up for discussion.

I specifically called out Pod Armies as an exception to my point. They usually want to go second anyhow, to make the Opponent waste a Turn of shooting. Think more like Tau or Eldar Alpha Strikes.

[AbusePuppy]

6 hours ago, Threejacks said:

Reading other forums and some are saying this Gathering Storm stuff is leading to a June reboot of the game..any truth to that?

No, not really. If there was a June reboot of the game, the rulebook (and models) would already be in production at this point (or more accurately, would've gone into production 2+ months ago) and we've gotten essentially no word on that.

Basically, it boils down to the fact that people are unhappy with the state of the game and they want things to be different, and the easiest wish-fulfillment fantasy that gets them that result is the release of a new edition.

10 hours ago, WestRider said:

You're missing my point. I'm not talking about the Alpha Strike Player Seizing. I'm talking about them getting Seized on. If the Alpha Strike Player wins the roll to go first, they have to be careful how aggressively they Deploy, because getting Seized on can absolutely wreck them. If there's no Seize and they get First Turn, the Game is pretty much set by the Deployments, and actually Playing it out is often more or less irrelevant.

More or less this, although you'll never convince LH of it. The real problem is the fact that players are acting with every unit in their army before the opponent gets to do anything to respond; if it used a system more like Malifaux/Infinity/X-Wing/etc where there were alternating activations, Seizing wouldn't be necessary as a mechanic because alpha strikes as a concept wouldn't be so overwhelmingly powerful in so many situations.

[pretre]

6 hours ago, AbusePuppy said:

No, not really. If there was a June reboot of the game, the rulebook (and models) would already be in production at this point (or more accurately, would've gone into production 2+ months ago) and we've gotten essentially no word on that.

Well, I agree but for different reasons. I think a new edition is coming, maybe this year or the next. I'm not sure it is June though. And as for knowing about production before hand, rumors are a weird game and we have been consistently surprised. We don't always know about stuff that far in advance.

[pretre]

[spagunk]

Not 100% relevant but atia posted the following image on her blog:

Looks like my army is about to be "squatted". Fare the well my imperial brethren!

[pretre]

From Atia

[pretre]

[Lord Hanaur]

On 3/8/2017 at 11:45 PM, AbusePuppy said:

More or less this, although you'll never convince LH of it. The real problem is the fact that players are acting with every unit in their army before the opponent gets to do anything to respond; if it used a system more like Malifaux/Infinity/X-Wing/etc where there were alternating activations, Seizing wouldn't be necessary as a mechanic because alpha strikes as a concept wouldn't be so overwhelmingly powerful in so many situations.

What does this have to do with whether or not seizing makes the game better?  Chess is not reviled for being turn based and most War games are turn based.  Alternating deployment has its own perils, which Warmachine players can tell you and Bolt Action definitely can.  But thats not really the discussion is it?   The discussion would be, given that its turn based, does Seizing ADD to the fun or just complicates and/or detracts from it?

GIVEN that Warhammer 40K is turn based, the reality is...we had a roll off.  it was random and fair.  Why are we doing it again?  Why?  To add more randomness, which YOU Abusepuppy have railed against in your posts before and in articles you wrote?  You have not been the largest propoent of adding randomness to the game, yet you're suggesting here that you suddenly ARe a fan of this particular randomness on top of randomness?  I see inconsistency in that point of view is what i see.

I think the argument FOR seizing is simply to make the game more unpredictable.  But if we are competing and its supposed to be two peoples skill competing as part of the equation, as well as their forces competing for dominance, what does a random "Ah ha, i gotcha!" roll do to test either one?  It doesn't.  

So to support the Seize mechanic, you have to support the idea that added random unpredictability is an asset to competitive play.  Are you arguing that?

[WestRider]

The sheer level of randomness isn't necessarily the issue. It's how it interacts with choices the Players make. This is a case where the presence of this bit of randomness substantially changes how Players have to approach some of those choices, but can be planned for.

[AbusePuppy]

I started to type up a post here to argue the point with you, LH, but then I remembered why I had avoided bothering to do so in the first place. So sure, strawman me into whatever argument you want to think that the imaginary version of me in your head is in favor of if it makes you feel better- nothing I say is gonna change your mind about how you approach mission design nor how you assume the game to work, and you certainly aren't going to bother reading the things that I actually type.

Quit while you're ahead, West. It ain't gonna get you anywhere.

[DisruptiveConduct]

Mod Note:

Please pay attention to the title of the thread when posting. If you want to talk game mechanics, go start your own thread.

 

Otherwise keep it on topic. Whomever cannot follow the forum rules will face my wrath.

 

If it helps, you can set someone to Ignore on the forums. This will hide their posts from your view so you arent triggered into replying.

 

For the good of the Order.

Khan

[Lord Hanaur]

1 hour ago, AbusePuppy said:

I started to type up a post here to argue the point with you, LH, but then I remembered why I had avoided bothering to do so in the first place. So sure, strawman me into whatever argument you want to think that the imaginary version of me in your head is in favor of if it makes you feel better- nothing I say is gonna change your mind about how you approach mission design nor how you assume the game to work, and you certainly aren't going to bother reading the things that I actually type.

Quit while you're ahead, West. It ain't gonna get you anywhere.

mod note heeded.