peter.cosgrove

At a 4+ BS. And they make up the gunline behind the screening forces that people are talking about in reference to the OP's original query. They are just another component of "gunline" that people are adding to the mix for the meta.

Basement actually. Same thing

So, here is a quote from your's truly regarding Obliterators. "Obliterators. I put these on the table ONCE. They are crap. Compared to EVERYTHING else deep strikable they are absolute garbage. And to put them on the board with their pitiful 24" inch range they become a laughable pile of fluffy clowns compared to ANYTHING that can take plasma guns." So, here is the hidden change. In the Index Choas: Heretic Astartes. Obliterators get fleshmetal guns. Assault 2 However... in the Codex Heretic Astartes, Obliterators get Fleshmetal Guns Assault 4 Assault 4.. THIS.. IS HUGE.. A unit of 3 oblits deep striking will now get 12 guaranteed shots of S7, AP -1, 1 damage. Averaging S8, Ap -2, 2 damage at 24" range. This, with NO Get's Hot! So, it is now time to compare them to the Plasma gun and do some points costs. 3 oblits, 65 points each, for 3 is 195 points. 12 Plasma gun equivalent shots at 24 inch range, deep strikeable. The most obvious is of course Choas Terminators. To get 12 shots you would need 12 Terminators with combi plasma. 10 Choas Terminators is 310 points plus 2 reaper auto cannons (Heavy 4, S7, AP-1,1 Damage) with combi plasma and power axe/sword would make it around 510 points for 20 wounds. This will give you 8 plasma shots and 8 reaper auto cannon shots at -1 to hit. Oblits will get 8 hits and 5 wounds at AP-1 against T4. Terminators will get you 5 and 4 hits, and 6 wounds at AP-1/3 against T4. HOWEVER.. that is around 85 points per wound for the terminators and only 39 points per wound for the Obliterators. Obliterators have 2+/5+, 3W and 3A at S5. 195 points gets 9 wounds and 9 S5 attacks. Terminator equi would be 5 termies for 10 wounds, 2+/5+ and 11 S5 attacks for 255 points. Obliterators are 21 points per wound/attack. Termies are 25 points per wound and 23 points per attack. Obliterators now beat termies EASILY for first strike/deep strike attack by fire. So, over to Raptors. 3 plasma guns per unit of 5, 4 units to make 12 plasma gun shots at 24" range. 5 raptors is 17 for 85 points plus 2 plasma for 13/26 and a combi plasma at 15 is 126 points for 1 unit. 4 units is 504 points. Thats 8 hits and 5 wounds at AP-3, so around 100 points per wound compared to the Obliterator 39 points per AP-1/2/3 wounds. Raptors at 3+, 1W and 1A for the plasma gunners/2A for the BP/Chainsword would make 9 attacks per unit. Raptors are 25 points per wound/14 points per attack, however, that attack is S4. Obliterator unit will get 6 hits and 4 wounds on T4 for 195 points, Raptors will get 6 hits, but only 3 wounds on T4. So Raptors are 42 points per T4 wound and Obliterators are 48 points per T4 wound. Obliterators are half again cheaper per wound, around the same cost for attacks/CC wounds as Raptors. And the 2+/5+ makes up for that. So Obliterators beat Raptors for the first strike/deep strike attack by fire. So, next up, Scarab Occult Terminators. Full unit 10 SOT's with 2 Soul Cannon/Helfyre Missile Racks/Inferno Combi Bolter. 1 Damage from Smite, 4 shots HMR/8 shots SC/16 shots ICB. 2 Hits HMR/5 hits SC/10 ICB. 2 wounds HMR/3 wounds SCR/5 wounds ICB all at AP-2/3. 11 wounds total for 457 points. That's 41 points per wound compared to the 39 for the Obliterators. So. Obliterators now beat both Terminators and Raptors and are Even with Scarab Occult Terminators. Your only other option is to take Alpha Legion and infiltrate a 6 model squad of Chosen in with 6 plasma guns. And that would be 96 points plus 5x Plasma guns/1x combi plasma for 65/15 is 80 would be 176 points total. And that would still only get you 6 shots at 24" for 4 hits/3 wounds, so 58 points per wound. And the Obliterators beat that hands down. I now want to put my unit of Obliterators on the ground once again and see if I am right.

But genestealers ftw!

It was my characters that were trying to be shot at and i couldn't believe that he couldn't shoot at them. What do you mean you can't shoot at them, they are out in the open, no cover, no screen, just.. standing there waiting to be slaughdakkafied.

we even had a situation come up where the shooter was between two characters, but because the closest character was in CC, the other character couldn't be shot at.

ya, we figured this one out by looking at it like this. You have a character, In front of the character is an infantry unit. Your opponent wants to shoot the character so he assaults the infantry unit. After assaulting the infantry unit he try's to shoot the character. You can't do that. It's the closest unit without regard to it being in combat or not. If it is in combat this essentially makes both the infantry unit and the character immune to shooting attacks until someone falls back or is wiped out.

The Death Guard Helbrute with 2 lascannon and missile launcher is VERY hard to beat. BS 3 with no move/shoot heavy weapons penalty and the points cost is very economical for a single 8 wound model with 3 48" threat distance D6 damage weapons. cheap troop choices are very good, the pox walkers/plague zombies with the 5+ FNP disgustingly resilient and the pox walker can't fail a morale check plus the plague zombie stuff. Plague marines have always been able to take 2/3 plasma guns and now the combi/plas can shoot every turn Taking a brigade detachment is cake, 3 preds with 4 lascannons, 3 helbrutes with 2 lascannon/ML, and 3 nurgle beasts to block out the deep strike in the back corners. Lastly, the ability to take a stock index sorc with dark hereticus and a DG sorc of some kind gives you access to 4 smites a turn plus Warp Time. Mortarion sounds like he's going to be billy badass, worse than Magnus.

You know, the more I read this thread the more uncomfortable it's making me. Let me see if I have the scenario correctly. Someone is running a tournament coming up this next weekend. They have an Eldar player signed up who may be asking to use the new codex. So, someone, for whatever reason, in lieu of having all the codex rules already written up for the tournament, is asking an opinion now, essentially after the fact, to make advised rules regarding codex usage for the tournament. And, may be or may not be fine with having some players with codexes already to use them, with all the relics/traits/strategems, and/or may or may not be fine with some other players who would or might have them, to have them. Have I got that right? So, what about all the players who don't have a codex at all? How is it fair to them?

oh no. I get it. I got what it is, I just think it changes the mechanic a bit too much. It's always been the case when you are playing assaulty against shooty that you are safe once you get into CC. An army, to break or fall back, had to put together a lot of complicated stuff. But now, your assaulty army can get shot up pretty much no matter what, UNLESS you decide to be an ass and stick a hand through someone's arm or tank tread or whatever to keep them from "moving" your model so they can't fall back. Of course, the ass part is, "oh, you are falling back, well ok but you see that arm sticking through your model? you can't move that, at all" "uh, you have to keep your base on the ground when you move unless you are going up levels, you can't pick the model up so you can twist it around to clear my claw sticking through your model". "Dude, you CAN"T fall back, my sword is sticking through your model and you CAN'T move my model when you fall back, ok? I put that antenna there specifically to keep you from falling back"

There was a time when game stores had a deal going with GW, where the game stores were required, when running events, that all models had to be at least 75% GW models and you couldn't bring copied codexes. The point being that you had to buy GW stuff to play. If someone has a copied codex that's been around a while, but only released on that day, or later that day it's bad form to say you can't have this or use this if you don't also require GW models to be used. Nowadays it's usually in the rules of a tournament that you have to bring a copy of the codex to the table but unless it specifically says it has to be an official release copy then you are generally fine just bringing copies of the the relevant pages, for the same reason that very few people care if you are bringing GW models or not. In this particular instance it would be a very poor sportsman to say, well since I have MY codex I can have all the relics/warlord traits/faction traits and special strategems, but since YOUR codex won't drop for a couple hours I won't allow YOU to have ANY relics/warlord traits/faction traits or strategems even though the store copies have been out for a while now. It's always been my instant response, since 5E, when I have a better codex than my opponent to immediately drop all the special doo-dads and play my army vanilla to match their's.

You assume there is a partnership to the conversation. However, I did not address an original comment to you. It was, in fact, you who started the side bar. It would have been more appropriate for you to send me a private message I think.

I wasn't saying I dislike it. It's out of place for something for me to say. When I use that term it has a specified purpose. By placing that colloquial saying into one of my statements it changes it's tone. And since I did not want to convey that particular tone to the statement it wasn't something that I would add. By adding the term you are, in essence, putting words into my mouth.

you added the blah blah blah. Pretty sure I didn't put that in there. I would appreciate it when you quote me in the future to not change what I type. Please.

Looks like an in between league day Tue for 40k. LFG 2k chapter Approved

Where?

I can't tell you how irritating it is to see how they keep splitting units away from where they were supposed to be good and now another unit is better. compare Blood Angels Death Company to Black Templars Vanguard Veterans. Black Templars gain a free re-roll on the charge. You have to put Lemartes in with Death Company to get that. Lemartes point cost is the same as a whole additional unit of Vanguard Veterans. I mean.. really, what's the point of trying anymore. Ultramarines are now better bikers than both White Scars AND Dark Angels. Just.. boggles the mind. I have to say that I keep looking at Legion of the Damned. They can drop in with a Multi Melta double tapping on 4's and a melta on 3's. They bring their own ablatives with a 3+ invuln. 2 attacks in melee. All in all, very expensive for what is essentially only a 5 wound unit. But, every time I look at a deployment on turn 1-2 there is always too much space to bridge the 12" gap for the double tap to be worthwhile. Really, nobody is going to give you the deep strike capability either for shooting or assault on their gunline. Not when they have cheapy troops just to have sit there and eat dakka.

Now, take the Razorback example even further. The other little mechanic that 8E brought in was that you can assault from a vehicle. MMkay, that's what we wanted. You can assault from a Rhino/Razorback. MMMkay, that's icing on the cake of what we wanted. BUT.... in order to assault from a vehicle you have to disembark from the vehicle BEFORE it moves. Ok.. now see, that little bit there.. breaks the transport assault concept in twain. Because even with the 3" free movement from the disembark, you still only get 9" of movement depending on the model movement. Even in the best case scenario, where you take jump pack units in a Land Raider of some form, you still only get a 15" movement. And the average deployment neutral distance is.. 24". What's 24-15? 9". which is the same as the mandatory deep strike distance. So, if that's the case, why bother trying a jump pack assault from a transport. There are no guarantees in the deep strike mechanic. Not only is it random, but trying to place any type of threat density into it still means that you are going to lose a LOT of wounds sitting there waiting for your next turn so you can move/assault.

I mean, it's brutally easy to build the meta. Take 6 20 model troop units, take enough stationary guns to guarantee a kill on a Baneblade/Landraider, take some HQ to make the guns better and add whatever midfield fire options you need to take out a 30 model tarpit within 24 inches after movement/advance. The more wounds you put onto the board the better. I don't know if they deliberately designed the balance to work the way it does, or if it's just painful simplicity of the 7E D weapons or what. The fact is, template weapons are gone, large scale destruction of the tarpit is gone. You HAVE to kill each model, one by one. In every codex you take a look at the weapon sets. Find the best tarpit killer, then start running the cost to kills ratio and the tarpits win EVERY time. For example. Space Marines Twin Assault Cannon. Very good weapon. Heavy 12. Most likely course of action hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1's with a Captain. Average 9 hits, ap -1, average 6 kills. ONLY 6 kills. To take out a 120 point tarpit (don't count the morale because the tarpits bring their moral saves w/ them) you have to have 5 twin assault cannons. But you can't just take 5 twin assault cannons, you have to put them ONTO something. One of the least expensive choices would be the Razorback, 5 Razorbacks with Twin Assault Cannon, 500 points. Good threat dispersion, the enemy has to pick and choose which razorback to kill, But still, 500 to 120. To make the cost ratio EVEN .. JUST even, you would have to kill 5 tarpits just to break point cost across 5 turns. And THAT is exactly what the tarpit guy wants. The only way to effectively put threat down on the enemy's backfield is massed long range threat dispersed firepower, and lots of it. Because the guy that puts a gunline down in the backfield that you want to put effects on is also going to put cheap cheap units screening those gunlines and preventing the deep strike into the backfield. And you have to put together a dual threat mechanic where you spend a turn killing off those screening forces (which requires a 36" MINIMUM range threat), leaving those big guns 2 full turns to shoot at you before you can get an effective deep strike down onto the guns. Because movement is first/shooting is second. It would be different if it was shoot first/move second, but they condensed the old Run into the movement phase so you can't even get a little additional movement closer after you kill off some of the screening forces. And then add in the whole free no penalties fall back of 8E, means even if you DO get half of your deep striking forces stuck in, either you are going to kill off all the screening forces, in which case the consolidation move won't get you in range, or the screening forces will just fall back closer to the guns leaving you out on your tod, swimming in a barrel of dakka.

Yes. That's the point. 8E is very much bringing back the high model count cheap screening forces from 2nd in front of high point gunlines from 4th. This, combined with a mandated deep strike distance means it's very easy to block off the side/backfield from deep strike, which means any deep strike will still end up in the midfield. 8E is bringing back the old school backfield/midfield concepts, and on a 6 foot by 4 foot board you either need a lot of models to control space. or very precise placement of select units that really can't move. Because this is so easy now, and the high cost of deep strike transports, and the odd way that 8E has to control first turn assaults, the use of 5E style first turn midfield control just turns into a target rich environment. Add in the 6E requirement that half the units need to be on the board on first turn means that the army lists that take advantage of high cost stationary weapons platforms and high model count screening forces become the most dependable/durable army's Also add in that pretty much any list can take advantage of the most durable list means that every game you can expect to fight the meta. The side meta, the one that.. some.. people are shaking their heads at is the smite meta. Since this is most easily taken advantage of by Choas armies, that also can use the whole range of cheap multiple tarpits and gunlines.

You need to be able to kill a 30 model tarpit and a land-raider each turn. Anything less and you end up getting wiped.

The key element is, does the tournament allow non-GW models. If so, then it doesn't matter what time the codex is dropped.

Scott are we playing, am I showing up. My wife wants to know.

yet another shameless bump.

umm. short range? 5 plasma guns and a lascannon is now considered short range? with their own re-rolls of 1 when stationary? Foo on you.