peter.cosgrove

right.. so, if you have LOW leadership it should be HARDER to accomplish this.. orderly intentional withdrawal yes/no? And if you are in combat with a unit with high leadership they should have an easier time deciphering your intention to orderly withdraw from combat yes/no? And then take advantage by hitting you from behind as you turn around to run away? So the best way to represent this would be some form of a leadership check yes/no? Higher leadership, more chance to accomplish this.. orderly intentional withdrawal, lower leadership.. lower chance.. yes/no?

so.. where's the leadership check when you fall back from combat?

Sadly, abaddon works best just walking him across the field in a sea of cultists and heavy weapons. Lots of heavy weapons. Think 24 missile launchers and work your way up from there. Hitting on 4's, re-rolling 1's.

I mean.. come on.. Death Guard Helbrutes.. FTW? If I had the plague marines and the poxwalkers I would be playing them instead of trying to mix/match the land raider/predator for the lascannon goodness.

Ya, but wheres all the special goo. Get your own codex and you get all the goo that goes along with it. No point in just running as troops w/o the goo.

The thing that sets them apart is the 2 attacks.. 2 attacks for a shooty troop choice. That's awesome.

6 Blastmasters at assault D6 36" range, 6 Doom Sirens at Assault D6 8" range and 24 Sonic Blasters at Assault 3, 24" range. 72+ average 21 shots at 24" range plus the average 21 hits at 8" range. 93 shots. You might take out a cheap 30 model tarpit with that.

Noise marines are cheaper, if only they could take chainswords in exchange for their bolt pistol instead of their boltgun. Actually, what is really needed is a codex that designates Noise Marines as troop choices, as they have done for Plague marines in the Death Guard, and Rubric Marines for Thousand Sons. That would mean being able to fully kit 6 5 model squads of Noise Marines with full Sonic Blasters/Doom Sirens/Blastmasters and just advance/shoot forward on turn 1 for really only about 75+22+16+20 times 6. so 143 is 858 points. That's a hard amount of threat density for any shooter to deal with. Put them into 3 Rhinos for the 3" bonus distance and some protection against the seize.

You make a lot of good points regarding synergy, some very good points.

ya. only play Alpha Legion in 8th E. -1 to ballistic is the best defense currently in the game. As long as everyone is going to keep playing the meta of integrating IG units with 4+ ballistic skill, making them hit on a 5+ takes half their points away.

DA is base 9, Black legion is 10, Warlord trait is 11. What you are trying to do is figure out how to swap the DA's leadership of 11 to the CSM squad and THEN give the CSM squad the +1 for Black Legion, and the +1 for the Inspiring Leader warlord trait and the +1 for the Icon of Vengeance. for 14 leadership.

no.. whatever the DA's leadership is, IS the final value. no more adjustments. Because the current stats for both the CSM and the DA are calculated to their current levels, THEN the swap happens. You can't say ok I am just going to calculate the current level for the DA, then swap, and THEN calculate the current level for the CSM. The stats are calculated instantly before the swap occurs and it's calculated for both units at the same time.

There was a point there, quite a while ago, where I was trying to build models that would fit in a variety of situations. Back then you had the force org where you took 2 HQ/6Troops/3Elite/3HS/3 FA. And that was it. So I figured, ok, well, I need 3 units of heavy support, but what weapons do I take? so.. I need 12 lascannons, 12 missile launchers, 12 multi-melta's, 12 heavy bolters. Black Templars could take a heavy weapons and special weapon in a 5 man squad with a razorback. And the lascannons were only 10 points. Same thing with Blood Angels. How many melta's can I put on the board? 32? ok. let's put that together. The balance is the cost. As long as a 5 man unit is limited to 2 expensive weapons, like Sternguard or Assault marines or whatever. Then PL is fine, it's just when you get to units that can take as many as they want that you have issues.

no. you would apply the DA's current leadership as a fixed value instead of the CSM's current leadership of 10. not 8 If you give the icon to the CSM squad it would equal the DA's leadership. In this particular instance there aren't any multipliers. That particular example applies to cases where you have Sx2 effects then apply a +1 to Str effect. You aren't going to be able to get a situation where you get leadership 11 +1 +1. If the leadership of the DA is 11, then that's the final value. No more adjustments.

So, would you count 5 Havocs with 4 lascannons/Combi-Melta/Power Axe as an abuse? Or 5 Fallen with Lascannon/4 combi-plasma/power axe? This is the part I don't like about power level. Some units are supposed to have big expensive weaponry, but the power level for them is based on their initial loadout. Buying those units means buying the models with the big expensive weaponry. There really isn't something in place that prevents someone from bringing, say, 24 lascannons for 36 power levels other than if they actually have the models with the lascannons.

Ok. if a unit takes an icon of vengeance, it does so at roster creation. So the leadership for each model is changed before the beginning of the game. The detachment trait for the Black Legion is also applied at the beginning of the game. The warlord trait adds 1 to the model, and adds one to the units within 6". The leadership exchange for the DA is an absolute. The units leadership no longer applies. So only the DA's leadership has a value when making a swap.

you apply the bonuses to your unit first before adding any bonuses from other units.

ya. I just noticed that HQ's can't take an Icon. Which is.. stupid. Khorne Characters can't take an Icon of Wrath, giving them a chance to reroll their charge distance.

I need to fill exactly 86 points. Sadly at that exact number taking chosen with 3 combi bolters seems the best, because the KZ only other option is either Chain Axes or plasma pistols. 86 points would be 6 shots at 24", 14 shots at 12" and 14 attacks at S4.

Taking a look at CSM specifically how Noise Marines compare to Chosen. The first thing I am looking at is number of attacks. Both Chosen and Noise Marines have 2 attacks base. Both have to give up their Bolter for a chainsword. Ok. so even there. The statline is the same. So even there. The cost is interesting. Noise marines are cheaper than Chosen. 15 points a model for Noise Marines, 16 for Chosen. 75 points for 5 Noise Marines, 80 for Chosen. 5 Points is a LOT. The Chosen Champion vs the Noise Marine. Both have the same options. The only diff. that benefits Chosen is the Leadership. Chosen have 1 more point of leadership. This naturally brings up the conversation of low model units vs high model units. High model units 10/15/20 models, point for point, have more need for leadership vs low model units of 5 models. This comes into effect when you try to balance a 10 model unit against 2 5 model units. Now. a specific comparison relatively unique to chosen vs noise marines. Combi Bolter vs Sonic Blaster. Combi Bolter is 2 points, Sonic Blaster is 4 points. Combi Bolter is rapid 2, 4 shots in 12" range but only 2 shots in 24" range. Sonic Blaster is Assault 3, 3 shots in 24 inch range. To get either both the Chosen and Noise Marines have to give up the chainsword to get them. Chosen with 2 combi bolters and rest chainswords is 84 points. Noise marines with 2 Sonic Blasters and rest chainswords is 83 points. Both would get the same amount of attacks in fight phase. 15 Attacks at S4. At 24" range Noise marines would get 6 shots, Chosen would get 4 shots. At 12" range Chosen would get 11 shots, Noise marines would get 9 shots. For 85 points the Noise marines can get 8 shots at 24" range and 12 shots at 12" range with 14 attacks at S4 by giving the Noise Marine Champion a Combi Bolter/Chainsword. To compare this, a Khorne zerker squad with just BP's/Combi Bolter on the Champion and chainswords would get 2 shots at 24", 8 shots at 12", but 16/32 attacks at S5 for 82 points. You know, the benefit of taking CSM in the past was being able to take a chainsword for free, CSM used to come base with Bolter/BP/Chainsword/Frag/Krak. Having to pick and choose makes it hard.

The only really odd thing that I do that I have found helps ALOT, is instead of removing models from the table, lay them down when they die so you keep an accurate track for the end of turn morale check. Then once the morale check is done remove them

Andy's post. This. this is it.

I don't have the words to extemporize just how FAST 8E is. Once you get your rules down and the general play down. It is REALLY fast. The only thing making the game slow down is just how many dice you have to roll.

Shameless bump, because reasons

You can get to 12. DA is base 9. If you give the DA the icon of vengeance, that's 10, Plus the black legion trait for 11, Plus the inspiring leader from BRB for 12. Because the warlord IS a friendly unit within 6".