Tyranids are here!

[AscentStudios]

When I look at the Instinctive Behavior (IB) chart I see pretty much all positives except Feed and even Feed has good results.  The chart doesn't even come up until you fail morale which you may never do.  Live in fear of what may rarely happen?  Not this guy!  I'll Deep Strike 4 inches from you because its WHY THAT UNIT IS HERE!

Uh, losing control of your units is BAD. Period. Basing that on a Ld check you are more likely than not to fail (avg leadership amongst non Synapse bugs = Ld 6.5, btw) does not make this statistically comforting. I could also say "Why play a shooting Tau army? I mean, you might never hit." As for accepting risk or casualties in a game - let's just say you know nothing of my armies or my play style, so we can just keep that out of the conversation.

 

I am on a lot of forums.  And on those forums I hear VERY little talk about how to USE this codex.  All I hear is how bad it LOOKS (with, by the way, maybe three games to back it up if that before they spouted, if that).  I hear that ONE Instinctive Behavior table CAN bone you.  CAN.  But as for useful tactica?  Forget about it.

Well, I've tried to start a discussion, as have others. Perhaps we can start here and perhaps you can contribute rather than expecting us to cram in some acceptable number of games to prove to you that we are somehow capable of providing criticism?

 

I think if you keep tinkering with it, you're going to find that what I said earlier is true:  Lists will change and results will improve.  I don't think they will be "top tier", but then, most agree an arms race isn't a good idea anyways.  I think this codex falls in the "Good Generals are going to mop up like they always do, but look awesome doing it" category of middle tier.

So...do you want to have a discussion, based on what I know, both from *actually* playing a game, and *actually* owning and playing this army for the better part of 3 years? Cause I'm willing to have that discussion. But repeating to me that armies will change, as if I am a child, is not necessary.

[WestRider]

A couple of things on the Dakka article: I would actually say that the Psychic Powers are potentially excellent, not just decent. The problem is that they're almost all specialized, and they're random. If you could actually plan around any of them beyond Dominion, it would open up a lot of options, but as it stands, it's a recipe for frustration.

 

That guy also has no understanding of why Regeneration is bad and how it fails. At 1500 or above, there's no Nid MC (except possibly a T-Fex) that a decent Shooting Army of basically any stripe can't drop in a single Turn. It doesn't matter what you're rolling to get that Wound back, because an Opponent who knows what they're doing will never let you roll for it, anything that has Regen will get focus fired down in a single Turn. If it were cheaper, it would be worth gambling on a bunch of MCs until they could make it into Assault, where the damage can't be controlled like that, but as it stands, if you take it on enough MCs to be worthwhile, you could just buy an extra MC or two with it and get more value that way.

 

More generally, my feelings on this Dex are mixed. I certainly don't believe it's worthless, but it's clearly very limited and clumsy, and many of the Rules directly contradict the fluff. Power Level-wise, I think it was a sidegrade. Some things got better, some things got worse, the Dex is still useable, but you have to really work at it. The number of Units and the number of options they have are lacking compared to other Armies of similar age, and more of those options feel like they aren't worthwhile.

 

I like that I can actually run my combat Fexen again without feeling like I'm completely hamstringing myself, and it's nice to have a few more Points to play around with, but that's about all I'm finding that I actually enjoy in the changes. Running the Army still feels like I'm playing against my own Codex as much as against my Opponent's Army, and I don't get to play 40K enough to waste time on frustrating Games like that when I've got 5 other Armies that play better that I can use instead.

 

The dex isn't useless, but the pollyanna-ish "The Dex is awesome, you're just not seeing/using it right" Posts that I'm seeing all over the place, usually from people with little or no experience with Nids and little or no actual detail, just overuse of terms like "synergy", "adaptation", and "specialized", are no more use than the doom and gloom posts. Neither is an honest and critical look at the actual reality.

[AscentStudios]

Well said. I feel bad about being so damn bitchy about this thing, but I think as a game designer, seeing something that's just so...lazy really pushes my IRRITATE! button. Mostly I'm baffled as to why they felt the need to make an almost arbitrary set of changes to a bunch of OK units, but leave so many other direly crappy units the same and excessively nerf some of the remaining good stuff.

 

While most discussion has focused on the negative, it's nice to see Carnies and T-fexes get a vital price drop, to see some shifting of units out of Elites to other slots (Deathleaper I'm looking at you), and the addition of the Exocrine which isn't that bad. I even respect the points changes to the Terv, and the removal of the Doom (pours 40 on the curb). But I put very little stock in an army being about points - or the fallacy of "earning your points back" - in general. It's how you use it that matters; an "overpriced" 'dex like Nids 5E did just fine with a little thought. And what we got was more complexity for no payoff...also known as "pointless work."

 

The dex just screams Lost Opportunity to me - not because they needed to utterly remake the bugs, but because they could have just made a popular army legitimately balanced and fun in 6E, and obviously chose not to.

[dashneeb]

While I won't disagree that usually as a player of said armies, that you can make the argument that a dex sucks upon sight, goodness knows I've been very well versed at doing that.  I can also say that getting a few games under your belt with new dex before truly going off on it can actually support/tear down said arguments.  I've often heard game designers tell me as a playtester that you need to get games under your belt, that it's too easy to say that something looks good/bad and that you need to have better arguments.

 

However, I can say that the Sisters are pretty much in the same boat.  I felt that the WD codex was just all about Celestine, and this new codex I thought was so horribly uninspired and boring and stupid I can't bring myself to play it.  However, a lot of people said that it was a good codex, and most of them weren't Sisters players.  Most of the Sisters players I know said that they thought it was crap too.

[Lord Hanaur]

eh...I never said that.  Definitely would not say that.  Sisters work great.

[Guest]

The dex isn't useless, but the pollyanna-ish "The Dex is awesome, you're just not seeing/using it right" Posts that I'm seeing all over the place, usually from people with little or no experience with Nids and little or no actual detail, just overuse of terms like "synergy", "adaptation", and "specialized", are no more use than the doom and gloom posts. Neither is an honest and critical look at the actual reality.

People who disagree are dishonest? I expect better of you, westrider. Although often critical of me, you are often the voice of reason.

 

I read the book. It doesn't scream overpowered, but also not underpowered. Changes were predictible, GW's consistent approach of nerfing the models that people bought the most of last edition/codex and ensuring their new sets see sales.

 

I do agree that TAU and eldar seem overpowered, but I don't think the solution here is to make the bugs also overpowered.

 

I hate how tyranids finally get a new codex and all the tyranids players can think of is how not over powering the codex is. Say thank you to GW for your update and count your blessings that GW didn't discontinue bug product support.

-Pax

[AbusePuppy]

I hate how tyranids finally get a new codex and all the tyranids players can think of is how not over powering the codex is. Say thank you to GW for your update and count your blessings that GW didn't discontinue bug product support.

-Pax

 

Oh come on now, you wouldn't thank me for punching you in the gut because I could've stabbed you with a knife. Tyranid players are fully within their rights to have hoped for an interesting and well-written codex with enjoyable options; the fact that GW did not deliver that is a legitimate complaint.

[WestRider]

I didn't say people were lying. I said boundless optimism is not an honest look at the Dex. That point of view cannot be obtained without ignoring huge swathes of suck in the book. It's about error, not intent to decieve. That's an important distinction.

 

GW's pattern is not just nerfing what was seen as OP. That's half of it. The other half of the pattern is buffing the things that were seen to suck. That's the part we didn't really get.

 

Speaking of which, actually read our complaints before dismissing them. I haven't seen anyone here asking for Riptides or Wave Serpents. We want Warriors and Genestealers and Rippers that can actually do something other than look cool before they get shot away. We want the parts of the book that suck to be brought up to par. We want Rules that actually match our fluff. We want more options than just a new set of MCs to spam along with a flood of Gaunts. We want a Codex that had enough work put into that it's worth us putting the work into making it function.

[Guest]

Speaking of which, actually read our complaints before dismissing them. I haven't seen anyone here asking for Riptides or Wave Serpents. We want Warriors and Genestealers and Rippers that can actually do something other than look cool before they get shot away. We want the parts of the book that suck to be brought up to par. We want Rules that actually match our fluff. We want more options than just a new set of MCs to spam along with a flood of Gaunts. We want a Codex that had enough work put into that it's worth us putting the work into making it function.

Well, rippers did get a much softer penalty for going out of synapse...Instead of just getting wiped because of low leadership. they now have a 50% chance to not take any damage and a 50% chance to each hit themselves a single time, armor allowed. With 3 or 4 wounds each, this is a major boon for rippers that go out of synapse.

 

The tactic with stealers I saw recently is to infiltrate them and then use the broodlord's power (horror?) to pin the enemy turn 1. They start in range, so it's pretty effective. Opponent had orks with lootas which failed their pinning. Not a huge loss for the lootas, being BS1 instead of 2, but helpful. Also meant the stealers weren't doing nothing turn 1 due to the limitiation on turn 1 assaults after infiltration. Player noted that this one works very well against TAU and was used to good effect in pinning the enemy riptide turn 1.

 

As for warriors, those lashwhips have actually a pretty neat new role. As per the GK halberds, the + to initiative is resolved after fixed numbers, so those warriors are initiative 4 after charging through terrain without assault grenades (reduced to 1, then +3). Also functions against necron whip coils, making the warriors swing before necron wraiths. The warriors are pretty easy to hide synapse, they score, and can be kitted to a number of roles/unit sizes. You can also put them in buildings, if your opponent is able to deny armor, cover and need for LOS.

-Pax

[Lord Hanaur]

According to some online sources, part of the reason certain elements were omitted were competitiors poaching on their stuff and selling models.  Apparently there was a sizable lawsuit attached to this.  There's several places where they site (unnamed sources of course) as saying that play testing didn't start early enough and so playtesting results weren't conclusive enough by the time upper management forced them to "finish playing with their toys and sell something already".  I dont know the sources and cant verify any of it but its plausible.  

 

I thought it funny because I remember all the online chatter about 5 years ago where people were really upset at the way GW was always releasing things later than scheduled.  Well now they are apparently on a breakneck strict schedule I'd say.  Maybe they should decide on an author next time a lot sooner?  That could give him more time to think about it before the project ACTUALLY starts.  

 

Who was the project manager for the book.  Does it say?

[AscentStudios]

According to some online sources, part of the reason certain elements were omitted were competitiors poaching on their stuff and selling models.  Apparently there was a sizable lawsuit attached to this.  There's several places where they site (unnamed sources of course) as saying that play testing didn't start early enough and so playtesting results weren't conclusive enough by the time upper management forced them to "finish playing with their toys and sell something already".  I dont know the sources and cant verify any of it but its plausible.  

 

I thought it funny because I remember all the online chatter about 5 years ago where people were really upset at the way GW was always releasing things later than scheduled.  Well now they are apparently on a breakneck strict schedule I'd say.  Maybe they should decide on an author next time a lot sooner?  That could give him more time to think about it before the project ACTUALLY starts.  

 

Who was the project manager for the book.  Does it say?

I mean this in the most civil possible way - but how is any of this relevant? While I'm annoyed at the loss of Spores, that's not the underlying problem with the book that the bug players here in this forum are actually discussing. Nor is who's to blame. The problem is the book has serious problems in terms of being on par with the rest of this edition, and so obviously so. We as consumers don't have to look any further than that.

[fluger]

Let me put it this way, when each book dropped, people immediately figured out most of the "power" units in each (Daemons did take a while to suss out, so there's hope yet, I guess).  Ravenwing, Heldrake, Riptide/Missilesides, Wave Serpent/Jetbikes, Gravguns/White Scars.  All of those things, experienced players looked at and said, "Holy [big bad swear word]!  That unit/army is Awesome!"  What is the consensus "Holy [big bad swear word]!" unit of the Nid dex?  

 

*crickets*

 

Again, I think we might be missing something, and given time, something strong might emerge, but I just don't see much to be excited about.

[WestRider]

Well, rippers did get a much softer penalty for going out of synapse...Instead of just getting wiped because of low leadership. they now have a 50% chance to not take any damage and a 50% chance to each hit themselves a single time, armor allowed. With 3 or 4 wounds each, this is a major boon for rippers that go out of synapse.

 

The tactic with stealers I saw recently is to infiltrate them and then use the broodlord's power (horror?) to pin the enemy turn 1. They start in range, so it's pretty effective. Opponent had orks with lootas which failed their pinning. Not a huge loss for the lootas, being BS1 instead of 2, but helpful. Also meant the stealers weren't doing nothing turn 1 due to the limitiation on turn 1 assaults after infiltration. Player noted that this one works very well against TAU and was used to good effect in pinning the enemy riptide turn 1.

 

As for warriors, those lashwhips have actually a pretty neat new role. As per the GK halberds, the + to initiative is resolved after fixed numbers, so those warriors are initiative 4 after charging through terrain without assault grenades (reduced to 1, then +3). Also functions against necron whip coils, making the warriors swing before necron wraiths. The warriors are pretty easy to hide synapse, they score, and can be kitted to a number of roles/unit sizes. You can also put them in buildings, if your opponent is able to deny armor, cover and need for LOS.

-Pax

Rippers weren't even close to worth their points before. Making their drawback slightly less painful is not worth an extra Point per Base.

 

Stealer trick only works if you're going first. Otherwise, you have to spend a whole turn with your Broodlord in sight and within 24" of your Opponent, which is usually a very unhealthy place for a Unit that fragile to be. Not a good way to gamble with 130+ Point Units if you ask me. Also has nothing to do with what's supposedly the Genestealer's Role: They're supposed to be one of the most terrifying CC foes in the Galaxy. Instead, they're bolter bait and mediocre combatants.

 

Lash Whip thing doesn't work. 6th Ed is very clear on how you apply Modifiers and Set Value Modifiers (like Charging through Cover) always bat last. Pg.2. Warriors are, again, full of potential, but in practice, they're far too fragile. Don't think I haven't tried here. They're possibly my favorite Nid Unit in terms of Fluff and Models, and I wrote pages and pages on how best to use them under the 4th Ed Dex. When the 5th Ed Dex came out, I spent ages trying to get them to work, because I still have almost 30 of them (if you include Shrikes, and Raveners, which suffer from the same problems and fail for the same reasons). I have run every significant variation possible under the 5th Ed Dex (which means almost all the variations possible under the current one, because they hardly changed). They're just too fragile to be reliable as anything but a minimum-sized Backfield Objective Camper/Synapse Unit with maybe a Barbed Strangler to take potshots. Anything else is a gamble that I've seen fail far too many times to risk again.

[Lord Hanaur]

I mean this in the most civil possible way - but how is any of this relevant? While I'm annoyed at the loss of Spores, that's not the underlying problem with the book that the bug players here in this forum are actually discussing. Nor is who's to blame. The problem is the book has serious problems in terms of being on par with the rest of this edition, and so obviously so. We as consumers don't have to look any further than that.

Umm...  this is a "Tyranids are here" thread and it seemed very on topic to discuss that.  Plus, I am running out of ways to stay interested in the trend of "uh huh" and "Nuh uh" that it's turning into.  Correction.  Past tense.  HAS turned into.

 

So, its an aspect of the Tyranids arrival we could ALSO discuss.

[Munkie]

Let me put it this way, when each book dropped, people immediately figured out most of the "power" units in each (Daemons did take a while to suss out, so there's hope yet, I guess).  Ravenwing, Heldrake, Riptide/Missilesides, Wave Serpent/Jetbikes, Gravguns/White Scars.  All of those things, experienced players looked at and said, "Holy [big bad swear word]!  That unit/army is Awesome!"  What is the consensus "Holy [big bad swear word]!" unit of the Nid dex?  

 

*crickets*

 

Again, I think we might be missing something, and given time, something strong might emerge, but I just don't see much to be excited about.

 

I totally agree with your perspective here. Nobody is finding gold yet and that's worrisome. But, FWIW, I started a thread on this very board about a month after the Tau book was out, asking if people thought it was top tier. I was told almost unanimously "no". Average was the general consensus. Some things in 6th need to settle before they're properly assessed. But people are looking hard for that "something" and not really seeing it. That doesn't bode well.

[Aventine]

Let me put it this way, when each book dropped, people immediately figured out most of the "power" units in each (Daemons did take a while to suss out, so there's hope yet, I guess).  Ravenwing, Heldrake, Riptide/Missilesides, Wave Serpent/Jetbikes, Gravguns/White Scars.  All of those things, experienced players looked at and said, "Holy [big bad swear word]!  That unit/army is Awesome!"  What is the consensus "Holy [big bad swear word]!" unit of the Nid dex?  

 

*crickets*

 

Again, I think we might be missing something, and given time, something strong might emerge, but I just don't see much to be excited about.

 

Put me on the spot and I would say its the Mawloc. I saw a lot of them in action over the weekend, and they were doing work. That said, all one amazing unit does is encourage mono-builds.

[fluger]

I agree mono builds are bad.  

[pretre]

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/574025.page

 

Amusing Battle Report where the Nid player uses a Bastion and Venomthrope to good effect. :)

[WestRider]

I can't remember if I posted it here, but I've been thinking about using a Firestorm Redoubt for a similar purpose. Possibly Joining a Tyranid Prime with the Norn Crown to the Venomthrope to get a good Synapse Bubble off that, too.

[pretre]

I can't remember if I posted it here, but I've been thinking about using a Firestorm Redoubt for a similar purpose. Possibly Joining a Tyranid Prime with the Norn Crown to the Venomthrope to get a good Synapse Bubble off that, too.

I think we talked about it previously. Obviously, since the FSR has good anti-air it is better for that, but the bastion is dirt cheap comparatively.

[Guest]

Let me put it this way, when each book dropped, people immediately figured out most of the "power" units in each (Daemons did take a while to suss out, so there's hope yet, I guess).  Ravenwing, Heldrake, Riptide/Missilesides, Wave Serpent/Jetbikes, Gravguns/White Scars.  All of those things, experienced players looked at and said, "Holy [big bad swear word]!  That unit/army is Awesome!"  What is the consensus "Holy [big bad swear word]!" unit of the Nid dex?  

 

*crickets*

 

Again, I think we might be missing something, and given time, something strong might emerge, but I just don't see much to be excited about.

Ravenwing, really? Any particular units, or just that third/half of the codex? In practice, I really haven't found most of the RW to be that overwhelming, given their high cost and low squad sizes. They're good, but not overwhelming. The Knights (DW and RW) are very good, but they aren't scoring. DA really shine in support units/abilities for use as allies, as they seem designed around a synergy heavy list.

 

Anyway, I don't see the tyranid army as having powerhouse single units, so I guess we agree there. They seem like each unit covers the weak points of the next, like a phalanx. They do certainly have some failings, like a glaring lack of invulnerable saves.

 

As for must have units, some of the special characters seem like they have pretty awesome potential in lots of roles. The Deathleaper, in particular, is very interesting because of the implications of a unit that always requires snap shooting to hit. In example, Blast and Template weapons can't snap, so can't shoot at the deathleaper. The Red Terror also looks like an interesting character assassin, especially if you find a way to boost his odds to hit. In particular, you could swallow mephiston with this one...

-Pax

[Hobbitron]

Anyway, I don't see the tyranid army as having powerhouse single units, so I guess we agree there. They seem like each unit covers the weak points of the next, like a phalanx. They do certainly have some failings, like a glaring lack of invulnerable saves.

 

As for must have units, some of the special characters seem like they have pretty awesome potential in lots of roles. The Deathleaper, in particular, is very interesting because of the implications of a unit that always requires snap shooting to hit. In example, Blast and Template weapons can't snap, so can't shoot at the deathleaper. The Red Terror also looks like an interesting character assassin, especially if you find a way to boost his odds to hit. In particular, you could swallow mephiston with this one...

-Pax

Two things.

 

Number One:

Phalanx is a bad example. Phalanxes were made up of the same exact dudes. If you killed one, another could step up to take its place. With nids imagine it's a Phalanx, but their shields are puzzle pieces. You can set it up so everything is completely covered at first. But if one dies, then a hole opens up. You can move a piece in to cover up the gap, but it won't be perfectly shaped, and a hole will remain.

 

Number Two:

If an opponent casts the divination power to overwatch at full BS, and Deathleaper assaults that unit which also has a flamer, how does that play out? I suspect it's that they fire at full BS and the flamer gets to flame, which makes me sad. Deathleaper is actually safer not assaulting.

[Guest]

Number Two:

If an opponent casts the divination power to overwatch at full BS, and Deathleaper assaults that unit which also has a flamer, how does that play out? I suspect it's that they fire at full BS and the flamer gets to flame, which makes me sad. Deathleaper is actually safer not assaulting.

Yeah, I was thinking about super heavies and how like 95% of them rely on blasts and templates to hit their targets. It would be really annoying to have a character than denies leadership for an IG character, and also can't be targeted by most of our long range weapons...

 

I remain unclear if you could include the deathleaper in a blast that targeted another model, or if they are exempt from the blast like a flyer would be.

 

I am pretty sure that the flamer can auto-hit in assault, but it means you just don't assault that unit.

 

Anyway, deathleaper is perfect for backfield artillery/indirect tanks, as they usually can't overwatch and likely can't target the deathleaper with any weapons save a few snap shots  (at the price of not shooting the artillery/indirect tank at a better target).

-Pax

[PumpkinHead]

FSR comes with the anti air for a cheaper price then 2 crones or harpies (shoots just as well) and gives off a large footprint for the bubbles.

[fluger]

Ravenwing, really? Any particular units, or just that third/half of the codex? In practice, I really haven't found most of the RW to be that overwhelming, given their high cost and low squad sizes. They're good, but not overwhelming. The Knights (DW and RW) are very good, but they aren't scoring. DA really shine in support units/abilities for use as allies, as they seem designed around a synergy heavy list.

 

Perhaps now they aren't as pretty when compared to White Scars, but they are still potent.  Ask Mikhail Lenin.  He schooled me hard with 'em at OFCC.