Witch elves/sisters of slaughter cost?

[Guest]

Okay, not a troll, just genuine curiosity. Been wondering for a while, why is this kit so expensive? What does it contain that makes 10 models $60 which is about double the cost of all the other DE infantry units...? Seems like there must be a reason that I don't see looking at the packaging.

 

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440049a&prodId=prod2250008a

-Pax

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Three reasons,

1) The models before came in blisters that was more expensive to build a unit. So they can say they actually dropped the price.

 

2) The WE became core choices and with the CoB become one of the nastiest unit in the game. High demand.

 

3) It's GW and they don't base prices on the amount of material, more the demand. They have said this game is a Luxury product and people are paying it.

 

Chances are they won't sell as well as other units now so when the next price increase happens they will most likely stay where they are to come closer to the other units, kind of.

[Guest]

Thanks.

-Pax

[Ring_of_Gyges]

The more you charge, the more money you make per box.  The less you charge the more boxes you sell.  There is an ideal point at which you maximize your profits, trouble is you don't know where it is.

 

My guess is that they're a trial balloon to see how that price point does.  They hope they'll make more by increasing the profit per box than they'll lose through lost sales.  If they're right, expect to see lots of $60 kits to follow.

[Lion of Flanders]

Dark Elves are one of my armies and my current focus. Furthermore, I like the new witch elves (they are not as cool as the old Chris Fitzpatrick witch elves...but nothing is). That being said....I'm voting with my feet so to speak and not purchasing any. I'm not a GW basher by any stretch, in fact I'm usually reminding people that is GW doesn't make a profit....the game systems that we enjoy so much will go away. I realize that we are paying for more than plastic miniatures when we buy from GW, we are buying the whole system, the background, the imagery that they have created, etc.

 

That being said....$6 a pop for plastic chicks seems a bit high to me....so I'm not buying.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

As a Dark Elves player myself I will say "well said".

 

But to throw out the original artist's name like it was your brothers and to have the old schoolers jump in and speak for you so fast I have to be me and say "Pa, who was that masked man?"

 

Back to the subject, for the reasons LoF listed I will be running Corsairs as my core for a while. They are very good and cheaper than the other boxes.

[pretre]

Three reasons,

1) The models before came in blisters that was more expensive to build a unit. So they can say they actually dropped the price.

This bears repeating. Mostly because they did actually drop in price. It is cheaper to make a Witch unit than it was 6 months ago. :)

[MexicanNinja]

Another thing you have to realize, is that you are purchasing a dual kit sprue here.  Yes, you are only assembling 1 unit from the sprues but you still end up with a ton of bitz for the later models.

 

In all honesty, you could purchase a dark eldar kit and produce very nice looking sisters of slaughter.

[wisetiger7]

I don't think GW realizes that if they split up the dual kit into two boxes, and charge $35-40 per box, they would make tons more money. The $60 price tag makes purchasing a box seem daunting. Instead, people are looking to chinese copies that sell for around $37-40, free shipping. So, losing money to chinese copies, as well as alienating customers, both new and old, or bolstering sales and revenue, while maintaining said customers, and attracting new customers with cheaper prices?

 

And it would be easy to do it. They already do it with ogres. All ogre bodies (aside from maneaters and characters) have the exact same body sprue. They just add different arms with weapons, gut plates and heads, and some bits here and there. Same body sprue for witch elves and sisters? Just divide the heads, weapons, and whatever else. Hell, that would even make it cheaper from a production cost perspective, because the mold for the body sprues can be used toward two kits instead of one.

[Fixxer]

Im loving the idea of the sister of slaughter kit bashed with dark eldar wyches. I mean your still looking at $90 for 20 chicks (10 of each), but after looking at the models online I bet they would look totally awesome. 

 

Lion of Flanders bashed up some scouts with dark eldar Wyches and im guessing corsairs that look awesome, cant wait to see sisters of slaughter tho. 

 

Has anyone tried this yet? 

[MexicanNinja]

Nope, I will never include witches or sisters of slaughter into my dark elf army.

 

1) I think witch elves are horrible, unless you take hellbrone and a cauldron.  With just a cauldron the character dies to any character kitted for combat survivability.  With the rest of the unit, the same thing is mostly true.  Sure, they get a lot of attacks; however, if they are in horde formation then the standard 5 wide units deny them half the attacks.  Sure, you have ASF and murderous prowess, but you're still only S3.  Not going to make much of a difference to knights or other infantry with T4 and at least a 4+ save.  Then, you get monstrous cav in the mix...good luck witches!

 

2) Sisters are really great at what they do, but they have no survivability outside of close combat, compete with warlocks in the rare slot, and again, are still only S3.  I really love what they could do once they get to the flank of an enemy (but honestly, it's not as easy to get flank and/or rear charges in 8th).

[wisetiger7]

Sure, they get a lot of attacks; however, if they are in horde formation then the standard 5 wide units deny them half the attacks.  Sure, you have ASF and murderous prowess, but you're still only S3.  Not going to make much of a difference to knights or other infantry with T4 and at least a 4+ save.

Standard 5 wide still allows 7 wide worth of attacks... With a Witchbrew Death Hag, we're talking 39 S3 and 6 S4 poison attacks with ASF/Hatred and Murderous Prowess. So only 28% (not 50%)of your attacks will be wasted, which can sometimes be worth it to have an extra rank of supporting attacks. Regarding tougher enemies like knights or heavies, sometimes the sheer volume of attacks that they have to save against can still put on a couple unsaved wounds. And if you can put on a couple wounds against knights, that's a lot of points you can make up for when they cut down your numbers. Plus, you'll probably have steadfast. And if you are really worried about those units, just don't charge the witches into them; use something else. Witches aren't the end all/be all. Remember, they're core, and elf core isn't the best, combat-wise; sometimes volume helps with that.

 

Wait. why am I arguing FOR witch elves?!?

 

PS. Sisters are stupid.

[MexicanNinja]

Yes, they can get a heavy volume of attacks.  If you put a cauldron in that unit, you don't get nearly that many attacks.  They will also attract all the template shooting and low strength shooting your opponent has.  You will have to spend 2 turns crossing the table (if your opponent sets up correctly) because that unit has to engage the enemy as fast as possible.  Now, if you send in one redirecter, that's another turn spent reforming into position.

 

Again, I think they are horrible unless you have hellbrone in the unit.

 

As far as core go, corsairs and darkshards are much better options, IMO.  Corsairs have a 4+ save, and darkshards can prodcue missile-fire and with shields they grant you a 5+ armour save (from both ranged and close combat attacks) and get a 6+ parry save.

[wisetiger7]

You can always charge the cauldron out of the unit to take care of redirectors. Or you can use the multitude of other DE options to shoot the crap out of redirectors. Redirectors can be bad for any unit if not taken care of, witch elf or not, so that's not really an argument. The fact that they have frenzy and must charge is irrelevant if you have either a death hag (see above) or a cauldron in the unit. Remember, if it charges out of the unit, the unit itself cannot charge as well, and thus you don't have to take a test to hold back its charge; you can move/march as normal.

 

I don't really think the cauldron is worth it if you can have a death hag by itself in the witch elf unit for 190 points less. The witchbrew is the main thing that you want, so you get that extra attack.

 

A witch elf horde is only like 330 points plus a death hag. And obviously you only want hordes in larger games. So in a 2800 point game, your horde only takes up maybe half the core tax; you have plenty of points left to put into other core for support.

 

And again, I don't think they are the best unit in the game, not even close. But they are formidable. Definitely far better than the 'horrible' rating you are giving them. I'll give you darkshards being better, but of course, are situational; you can say goodbye to them first round of combat. They are the bane of any High Elf army, save cav lists. Same with dark riders. Corsairs are okay if you want a mediocre core anvil. Dark elves are aggressive. Why do you think their lore is all damage and hex? They are strong in every phase as long as they are aggressive. Witch elves fit into that mentality. Corsairs don't. Repeater handbows are trash at 12". Giving them additional hand weapons that witch elves get for free? I think if it were me, I'd rather have 4 attacks with poison than 2 attacks with a 4+, especially since elves have ASF anyway. I think Corsairs were caught somewhere between a shooty unit and a combat unit, and are mediocre at either option. The only thing worth it for their points is the silly 4+. Who plays defensive dark elves?! I do have to concede that the Corsair models are a thousand times better than the derp witch elves. And severely cheaper.

 

Ack! Stop having me play Devil's Advocate! Defending witch elves feels dirty. Screw you dark elves.

 

PS. I do admire you not having witch elves or sisters in your army. Screw them and their $60 price tag. Plus the army takes more finesse without them, and can be more fun playwise, both for you and your opponent.

[HeroZero]

Corsair Horde, Wyches Horde+ CoB neither seems potentially worst thing ever.

And then they IF Okkams, and you lose anything touching it.

 

Double hordes is super competitive.

[MexicanNinja]

Well, just about anything with Okkams will destroy anything touching it.  I am still not concerned with witch elves at all.  They are still, IMO, not a good unit.

[MexicanNinja]

 

...PS. I do admire you not having witch elves or sisters in your army. Screw them and their $60 price tag. Plus the army takes more finesse without them, and can be more fun playwise, both for you and your opponent.

 

Dark Riders are better than witch elves.

[wisetiger7]

Dark Riders are better than witch elves.

Not for the same role. That's like saying an eagle is better than a horde of white lions. They have different roles, and thus are needed for different tasks. A unit of dark riders is meant to harass and open up flanks, as well as redirecting/countering redirectors. A horde of witch elves role is to put out mass low strength attacks, with the occassional role of taking out lightly armored monstrous infantry (or anything T4 or higher with 5+AS or lower). And if you can manage to boost them in any way, they become a force to be reckoned with (ie. wyssan's or power of darkness, or even razor standard). Imagine if you could bring a full 10wide force to bear with a Death Hag w/ witchbrew: 57 S3 attacks with poison, ASF with rerolls, and reroll 1's to wound and another 6 wounds S4 with poison, ASF, MP. As far as I know, there are no other units that have that much attack output. And 63 attacks with Mindrazor? Nothing is surviving that.

 

You can have whatever biased opinion you like of them, but in practicality, they are a solid unit, and no other DE core unit could do what they do, period.

[MexicanNinja]

I still highly disagree, mindrazor on corsairs would be much better.  You get damage output + survivability.

[Kremmet]

The key here is to stop being so absolutist about everything.  Saying that witches or corsairs are garbage is about as wrong headed as saying red or blue suck.  Witches are a far more offensive unit and care very little about what they're fighting because they're not paying for armor either way while corsairs allow DE to play a more defensive game (saying DE can't produce an excellent defensive game is a bit...daft).

 

There is no winning argument when things are this subjective.  Pick the unit that best fits your play style and stop pretending like other just as successful stratagems are somehow lesser to your own especially with something as grey area as witches VS corsairs.

[wisetiger7]

That is exactly what I am trying to argue. I don't even play Dark Elves. I don't even like druchii scum. But I know value when I see it. and 63 S9 attacks with ASF/rerolls and poison is it's own survivability. No 4+ saves needed. You should be able to take out most units with that many attacks at S9, striking first. I'm not saying Corsairs suck. In fact, if I were to play dark elves, Asuryan forbid, I probably would use corsairs over most other core. They are a good solid defensive anvil, and they have their role, and even offer slight versatility. But opinion and preference should not come into play when looking at something objectively. And objectively speaking, the sheer offensive output can in most situations compensate for the witch elves' lack of armor.

[MexicanNinja]

The key here is to stop being so absolutist about everything.  Saying that witches or corsairs are garbage is about as wrong headed as saying red or blue suck.  Witches are a far more offensive unit and care very little about what they're fighting because they're not paying for armor either way while corsairs allow DE to play a more defensive game (saying DE can't produce an excellent defensive game is a bit...daft).

 

There is no winning argument when things are this subjective.  Pick the unit that best fits your play style and stop pretending like other just as successful stratagems are somehow lesser to your own especially with something as grey area as witches VS corsairs.

 

That's an awesome statement.  I did very specifically state in my second post that I BELIEVE, not that it was a fact.  I only posted my opinion and nothing since that post has made me change it.  I am strictly stating my opinion.  Again, in MY OPINION, I don't think witches are that good.

 

However, to take it further, I haven't seen a single dark elf player use witches with the new book.

[Fixxer]

Funny.... Ive seen many experienced DE players use WE lately... and to great effect. 

 

No, it wasnt because they are ignorant or because their opponent doesnt know how to play  .... Its because when you write up an army (especially elves) its about a combinations of troops. WE are aggressive and offensive, but dont really need to be if the rest of the army isnt. With the amount of shooting and aggressive magic in the DE army, WE dont have to run at or into anything. They can just sit in the center of a battle line and opponents have no choice but to move in or get shot and/or magicked! Warhammer is a crazy game. 

 

 

 Opinions can sometimes come off as definitive statements. Just saying ,that's why people argue. . 

[MexicanNinja]

... Opinions can sometimes come off as definitive statements. Just saying ,that's why people argue. . 

I don't argue, I debate ;) 

[Kremmet]

Just like Pax.