Is it just me...

[Lord Hanaur]

It's not my friend, the volume is just turned to 11 :).  My point is this, if GW is allowed to be crazy at volume 11, and it's our community, we play the game we want, why not turn it up to volume 11 ourselves?  This is just for conversation purposes, I'm not advocated that the NOVA Open does this.

Im in dude.  i can play a 3E Eldar codex maybe?  or maybe a 3E Chaos codex?  I wonder how that would look in a 6E ruleset?  We should totally do this sometime.

[pretre]

In 6th, it feels like game-breaking stuff is cropping up even when my regular opponent and I are actively trying to avoid it.

Like what?

[intrizic]

Im in dude.  i can play a 3E Eldar codex maybe?  or maybe a 3E Chaos codex?  I wonder how that would look in a 6E ruleset?  We should totally do this sometime.

:D Awesome, I'm booked for March, but anything after is ok, I'm way in Bellingham so maybe a middle ground of case de Fluger ....we should probably take this to PMs...

 

Yeah, look at the old codex and filter it through 6th, some of the new USRs make for some funny stuff 

[Lord Hanaur]

I dont know if you know or not but Fluger lives pretty close to me actually.  

 

But yeah PM me and we could try this and bat rep it for peoples amusement.  we'd probably have to explain as we go along to the viewers how we resolved certain wierdo outcomes but it would be pretty fun to try it.

[Aventine]

And the 3.5 CSM Dex needs to be let lie. I was looking through it a little while ago, and it looks incredibly tame by modern Army standards. I'd happily go up against it with any Dex currently in print.

 

A flying Daemon Prince you cannot target flies up, then turn 2 several squads of Daemons come out of reserve and charge you. All the while you are being shot at by tank-hunting lascannons (effectively S10 back then) and 9+ Oblits. I'd rather play against nothing but Seer Councils than fight that.

[WestRider]

Like what?

Mostly, it comes down to extreme RPS-type stuff. When my Opponent has brought Tau, for example, I've either had the tools to handle it, or I didn't. In either case, it's always been a complete stomp, with the results pretty obvious to both of us from comparing Army Lists. Or look at Knights: An entire Army (being presented as just another army, not something special or odd like Armoured Company) that's completely immune to anything less than S6 unless it's got Rending or Armourbane or something.

 

A flying Daemon Prince you cannot target flies up, then turn 2 several squads of Daemons come out of reserve and charge you. All the while you are being shot at by tank-hunting lascannons (effectively S10 back then) and 9+ Oblits. I'd rather play against nothing but Seer Councils than fight that.

What's making the DP untargetable? I can't remember or find anything that would do that reliably.

 

Bubble wrap is cheap enough now that you can afford to have a couple of Units charge without being able to do anything about it (especially given those prices for Daemons. Spendy.).

 

The Lascannon are costing 52 Points per Model, compared to 34 for a regular one now, and 9 Oblits is still totally doable, and modern Oblits have Plasma Cannon and Multi-Meltas available, which the ones back then didn't.

 

Seriously, the power curve has gone up that far. That honestly doesn't sound all that different from my usual experience playing against Daemons/Tau anyhow, and those two can Ally.

[Aventine]

'Siren' Slaanesh Minor Psychic Power. Buy 5 or 6 rolls on the chart to make sure you get it.

[galahad911]

Siren daemon bomb when Bloodletters had a 3+ armor and old power weapons. ugh

[Guest]

Mostly, it comes down to extreme RPS-type stuff. When my Opponent has brought Tau, for example, I've either had the tools to handle it, or I didn't. In either case, it's always been a complete stomp, with the results pretty obvious to both of us from comparing Army Lists. Or look at Knights: An entire Army (being presented as just another army, not something special or odd like Armoured Company) that's completely immune to anything less than S6 unless it's got Rending or Armourbane or something.

I've been running land raider heavy lists since 4th. The cool thing about that list is being able to shrug off S7 or weaker weaker weapons. With the newer necron codex, I even sometimes win against necrons (those tesla weapons are great for sucking against land raiders.... ).

 

Remember when templars could make their LRs immune to lances? Or when monoliths were immune to just about everything....?

-Pax

[WestRider]

@Aventine: Right, forgot about the ability to spam minor powers. Still, bubble wrap is so much cheaper and more effective now (no consolidating into new Squads) that it would be a totally different ballgame.

 

@Pax: Mech is a different thing. At least with Mech, once you've cracked 'em open, your basic weapons have work to do in the cleanup. Knights completely invalidate, just for one example, every Tactical Marine who's not carrying a Heavy or Special Weapon. They literally will play no role at any point in the game except to hide and try not to die.

[Guest]

@Pax: Mech is a different thing. At least with Mech, once you've cracked 'em open, your basic weapons have work to do in the cleanup. Knights completely invalidate, just for one example, every Tactical Marine who's not carrying a Heavy or Special Weapon. They literally will play no role at any point in the game except to hide and try not to die.

Knights are rear AV12, right? So throw a krak grenade into it's rear. Deny their shooting for a turn by charging, even if only for the small odds to do so. Knights aren't characters, so the melta bomb sarge is reasonably safe in a big squad because the knight can't single out his swings.

 

Although I see your point, I'm more concerned with a few knights with a good support army than I am a bunch more knights. It would be much harder to cope with knights that have a psychic hood within 6", a 4++ from a PFG, and is shooting at units subject to enfeeble. Strong AA support would be another major challenge.

 

As for powers against them, puppet master is the most obvious and really a nasty one for the knight player as that melta cannon is a major liability and hard to plan for with the arc based invulnerable save. Most of the psychic power sets in the BRB have some nice powers to really screw with a knight titan army, with hallucination being the biggest danger for an army that has D melee weapons...

 

I've been purposely holding back on this sort of tactics with my super heavy, as I don't want rage quits, but if we start seeing more super heavies, we can start buffing them up and making seriously nasty army combos.

 

For a very simple one, we can use my DA bikes to lower the toughness of a brood of carnifexen, then hit them with a hellhammer's main cannon. If they are hit, which is likely, it would instant death the brood with no armor or cover saves allowed. This isn't even a D weapon or a psychic power.

-Pax

[Aventine]

Knights are rear AV12, right? So throw a krak grenade into it's rear. Deny their shooting for a turn by charging, even if only for the small odds to do so. Knights aren't characters, so the melta bomb sarge is reasonably safe in a big squad because the knight can't single out his swings.

 

The Knight can snipe out characters and the like, though not as effectively as its normal attacks, with Stomp attacks.

[AbusePuppy]

I think one of the big differences is that the overall power level is much higher now than it was in 3rd, and much closer to the point of system-breaking. So it's much easier for the extra variance from a new release to really screw up the game or at least add major complications that make it much harder for someone who's unprepared to deal with it. The only 3rd Ed release that I remember really causing problems was one of the Tyranid ones, I think the Mycetic Spore Army, but it feels like every other release in 6th is shaking up the game to an unprecedented degree.

 

The difference is really in information, not in power level. The internet is a thing now; the game is more well-taught overall. More people are aware of the power combos and more knowledge about how the function and how they're faring in different areas of the world is visible to folks. Other people have already pointed out tons of the 3E game cheese, and make no mistake- there was a LOT of it. I'll throw in my $0.02 with the Blood Angels Rhino rush: Turn 1 drive 12", disembark, Rapid Fire bolters, then assault you.

[Lord Hanaur]

Blood angels. So nefarious..

 

So here's a question: if a tournament just says "F it. Codex/codex supplements only. Period, would anyone here find it difficult to play? Not in theory. You, actually and the force you most compete with?

 

I think I could.

[Guest]

The Knight can snipe out characters and the like, though not as effectively as its normal attacks, with Stomp attacks.

How so? It's not a shooting attack and doesn't resolve from the center, so how are you sniping characters? I can certainly see plating the character and praying for 6s....maybe that's what you mean? Not really a reliable solution to most things. Those stomp attacks fail to deny basic SM PA on 1-5. On 6s they are very impressive, but with stomps only d3 per turn, not exactly a solution to things.

 

I recently used my warhound against two sanguinary guard that assaulted me. Only one had a fist and that one could only glance (only 1 HP left on the warhound)...Still, took me 3 rounds of combat before I rolled the 6 stomp, we died simultaneously....

 

Yeah, effective when it works, but not reliable. Also not subject to normal re-rolls, as it isn't a roll to wound and such.

-Pax

[AbusePuppy]

How so? It's not a shooting attack and doesn't resolve from the center, so how are you sniping characters? I can certainly see plating the character and praying for 6s....maybe that's what you mean? Not really a reliable solution to most things. Those stomp attacks fail to deny basic SM PA on 1-5. On 6s they are very impressive, but with stomps only d3 per turn, not exactly a solution to things.

 

Until FAQed or unless changed by your TO, the six result on Stomp just removes models, it doesn't deal wounds, and thus cannot be reallocated with LOS! rolls. It's not really reliable, but a ~1/3 chance of removing a particular model per turn isn't exactly awful.

[Guest]

Until FAQed or unless changed by your TO, the six result on Stomp just removes models, it doesn't deal wounds, and thus cannot be reallocated with LOS! rolls. It's not really reliable, but a ~1/3 chance of removing a particular model per turn isn't exactly awful.

How is 6 on a D6 also ~1/3? Perhaps including the D3?

 

I agree that it should remove models without regard to look out sir. Then again, why is your character in assault with the superheavy unless you put him there on purpose? Super heavies really are some of the easier assault units to stay out of assault from. I mean, as written, the super heavy walkers still get d6" through terrain, can't go on upper levels of ruins and require base contact for an assault. You should be able to stay out of assault if you are really preferring to die to shooting.

 

If you are in assault intentionally, Stomps are resolved at initiative step 1, so even melta bombs will still get to be used. Even against knights, melta bombs hit on 4s (very likely), and should pen with average rolls, and explode on 4+ (1+d3 HP lost).

 

So, averages: 10 demo vets. 1x lost at I:10 from the hammer. ~4 lost at I:4 from the D melee weapon (assuming knight got the charge). At I: 1, demo vets swing with 5x melta bomb attacks. 2.5 hits. ~70% pen, as they only need 6 on 2d6, so 1.75 pens. 0.875 explodes results. Yeah, with a meager 100pts of demo vets, 0.875 explodes results on a knight. With 3x explodes results it's destroyed maximum, only 2x minimum number of explodes results required to destroy one.

-Pax

[AbusePuppy]

You get d3 Stomps, yes, which with a one in six chance of removing everything under the template is roughly a 1/3 chance of killing a model if you really want to.

 

Superheavies are fast, but there are plenty of things in the game that are just as fast or faster. You might as well ask "why is your FMC/jetbikes/fast skimmer/etc ever in assault unless you want him to be?" (Also, superheavy walkers are allowed to move into ruins just like walkers and MCs can.)

 

Those DemoVets can do some damage if they actually get stuck in, but how are you getting them into combat? T3/5+ is not exactly gonna waltz across the field and IG don't have any assault vehicles. That Knight is gonna get to take some shots at you with its Stubbers and main gun before you get in, so chances are you are not going to be going in with a full squad even before it makes its attacks.

[WestRider]

The difference is really in information, not in power level. The internet is a thing now; the game is more well-taught overall. More people are aware of the power combos and more knowledge about how the function and how they're faring in different areas of the world is visible to folks. Other people have already pointed out tons of the 3E game cheese, and make no mistake- there was a LOT of it. I'll throw in my $0.02 with the Blood Angels Rhino rush: Turn 1 drive 12", disembark, Rapid Fire bolters, then assault you.

OK, I'll concede on that point. But still, even when I was going to GTs, way out of my depth, in 3rd, I almost never felt like I was in a matchup where there was no point in playing out the game. In 6th, matchups that uneven crop up all the time (going back over my games from the last few months, I'd put it around half the time it doesn't feel worth playing past Turn 1), even when my opponent and I are trying to keep things low key.

[Guest]

Those DemoVets can do some damage if they actually get stuck in, but how are you getting them into combat? T3/5+ is not exactly gonna waltz across the field and IG don't have any assault vehicles. That Knight is gonna get to take some shots at you with its Stubbers and main gun before you get in, so chances are you are not going to be going in with a full squad even before it makes its attacks.

Stormlord is open-topped, so we have an assault vehicle, plus we can assault from buildings.

 

Also, math above assumes the Knight charges the vets sitting in the open. Anyway, point is more to illustrate the concept. Terms with chainfists could also work in a similar capacity.

-Pax

[Torg]

Finally bit the bullet and picked up the new Apoc rules book - looks interesting… I am thinking I will just build out my armies to fit Apoc and plan something fun :D

[ChaosGerbil]

A rear krak grenade? Huh? 2/3 chance to hit, 1/6 chance to glance, 1/2 chance of an invul save from the shield. That's a 1/18 chance of getting through, so for 6 hull points you will need an average of 108 ass grenades, or 54 with no use of the shield. That's not exactly practical to take down one scoring unit.

[Guest]

A rear krak grenade? Huh? 2/3 chance to hit, 1/6 chance to glance, 1/2 chance of an invul save from the shield. That's a 1/18 chance of getting through, so for 6 hull points you will need an average of 108 ass grenades, or 54 with no use of the shield. That's not exactly practical to take down one scoring unit.

Talking about grenading the knights with a rear krak grenade? Odds are certainly not in favor of destroying it that way. might get a lucky glance, which might remove a single hull point.

 

Still, if you shoot the rear, the knight can do one of a few things. They can ignore you, which isn't really a problem for the krak unit. They can spin to face you, which is great for your units on the other side of him.  He could also alter his ion arc, which may be bad for the krak unit, but remains good for the other units in your army. He could also charge you, though in doing that, he'd have to dedicate at least one weapon to shooting at you, or not shoot, as he's still bound by the "charge what you shoot" rule.

 

In most cases, lobbing a krak grenade isn't a huge threat, so he'll probably ignore you until you get that hull point of damage or until your the best target on the table. Still, the knight codex is all about destroying the SH with a collection of units working together. I'd suggest hitting him with everything until he dies, desperate odds are fine so long as a slim chance remains. Not trying is by far a weaker way to use such a unit.

[Lord Hanaur]

Some results is better than no results.  A lot of units in 40K must be whittled.  That you must is not necessarily an argument against weapons that "only" whittle.  Some might say its an argument for them?