Imperial Guard Platoon Command

[Lord Hanaur]

Kay so i was tinkering.  Here's a thought.

 

Platoon Command Squads can look like this:

4 Guardsman (4 x meltaguns)

Platoon Commander (Twin Power fists)

Commissar (Twin Power Fists)

ALL with Krak Grenades

= 170 points

 

Clearly such a valuable unit is going to get orders when the time comes.

 

So this little unit of dudes is a self contained BEATstick when allowed to strike. Against Tough 6 Monstrous Creatures, it causes 2.5 wounds in shooting and then 3.33 wounds in melee on the charge pretty much guaranteed.  Plus its alive (more or less) and drawing fire afterwards.  The entire unit as a whole is going to whallop vehicles with certainty that is hard to find and really, any unit it wants.

 

The unit is a mandatory component of the Infantry platoon so you don't have to agonize over whether to have one, Just what you'll do with it.  It's scoring so it will never be a waste to move it forward as long as terrain or vehicles can provide it cover.

 

It seems to me the trick with this unit is to position and time its strike well against high value stuff and then draw frie that would normally never go to a platoon command squad if it was its normal humdrum self.

 

Now the extra 140 points you're spending on this unit can buy you a Leman Russ battle tank almost.  So I understand that pouring the points into a five man unit sounds odd.  But a majority of the generals I see are already pouring four meltas into these units.  So they are routinely 70 point units anyways.  So the extra 100 points is mostly the debatable part.

 

There are a couple reasons I felt it might not be a waste.  For one, Monsters like WraithKnights require a serious series of blows to go down and in 40K, wounded things act just like unwounded things if you dont kill em.  WraithKnights deny areas of the battle field, are fast enough to adapt to new needs as the game goes on and are a serious amount of firepower.  having a unit you can pull up and charge with to kill the giant and not have to expend MULTIPLE other units essentially.  By paying the 100 points more, you're saving the shooting of several units for more appriopriate duty.

 

So it is kind of a move on the economy of scale.  If you can safely position them to bring the pain, it will be one seriously bad headache in the morning.  

 

If it was to be a deep striker from Vindettas, one obviously would want to hide the unit on insertion and allow them to plan operations for the next turm  If coming from reserve they can be used to very effectively to get rid of the big bad thing thats in the way of the IG Line.  whatever we end up with , it seems that this Platoon unit can really be an X factor.  

 

Compare the 170 to what 160 IG Veterans can do.  3 Meltas, BOMBS, and only half the Powerfists... AND a few more men. Ultimately not the melee monster that the Platoon command is.

 

Not too far apart in destructive possibilities.  But the platoon command does look more like the Russian bear that you need to storm the kitchen cupboards and take whats yours.

 

If someone dropped in, with as much as there is in the back side of an IG army, and sees our platoon unit, it can get shot up, but it wont be the main unit anyways so its death is both regrettable and less relevant.  If two wave serpents end up having to fire down and kill that Plattooon,the diversion of fire is probably welcome.  

 

A SM tactical  squad does 1.46 unsaved wounds to the monter then they can do 1.11 Melta wounds with 2 Meltas.  Not enough to kill most of them without tying up the shooting of the other units.  Pretty far from being able to end the problem.  That Space Marine unit is 170 also.

 

 

So looking at comperables, it seems like the IG Platoon command when decked out to kill, is truly an impressive package at its destination.  Elite and Highly armoured targets would hate it.

 

 

Reserve them for later?  escort them with tank sides to avoid getting hit?  Teleporting them?

[generalripphook]

You have o remember thoughthat that is 6 t3 wounds with 5+ armor saves....while the 10 man squad of space marines has 3+ armor and t4, that squad is super fragile.

 

Yes it can kill tanks in assult but what tank is getting close to imperial guard for that? Maybe a land raider. Most monsterous creatures are going to be swinging first anyways which will destory damadge output

[Guest]

Yeah...I'm known for supporting this sort of thing and even I think it doesn't look good on paper.

 

Also, IG don't have any assault vehicles to make this work. Basically, you'd have to be ignored, approached while in a building, or all be mounted in an open-topped super heavy (like a storm lord). In general, seems like a really bad approach.

 

For notes, the IG power maul is only 1 strength less than the power fist. A maul and a melta bomb will cost the same as a fist and likely be much more effective.

 

Also, remember that melta bombs can now be used in assault with MCs and vehicles, so a demo vet squad has 10 attacks at S8 ap2 if locked with a MC, even if unwieldy. Hard to beat that unit for the stock 100pts it costs. 130pts with 3x melta guns too, and at higher BS.

-Pax

[AbusePuppy]

Tooling up IG guys to do fancy things always sounds good, but then they get shot by two Bolters, fail a morale check, and suddenly your costs-more-than-a-Tactical Squad is booking it for the table edge. Or they assault something Sergeant Fist gets challenged and either A, dies to a chainsword or B, declines and also dies to a chainsword. Or their ride blows up and they all die instantly. Or their ride doesn't blow up and you realize you have to disembark and stand out in the open for a full turn before you can do anything. Or... well, you get the picture.

 

Just take the Meltaguns or Flamers. The biggest advantage of IG is that their guys are cheap and completely expendable.

[Lord Hanaur]

You have o remember thoughthat that is 6 t3 wounds with 5+ armor saves....while the 10 man squad of space marines has 3+ armor and t4, that squad is super fragile.

 

Yes it can kill tanks in assult but what tank is getting close to imperial guard for that? Maybe a land raider. Most monsterous creatures are going to be swinging first anyways which will destory damadge output

Lets face it:  If we don't kill the monster, it kills us.  Space Marine OR Imperial Guard unit.  The units fragility only matters BEFORE the desperate combat.  I definitely don't disagree that the unit is more fragile though of course.  Just that it will do far more than the Tacticals.

 

As for tank killing:  Vindettas can drop them into a ruin or whatever and they can charge from it afterwards.  So if you WANT to get to enemy tanks, you can.  However, it requires a good landing space.  Lots of tanks and drop pods come TO the IG though.  Lots.  I dont find that particularly unusual.  Outflanking Devilfish's, Rhinos, Wave Serpents trying to gank objectives late in the game, Dark Eldar Wyches o nthe charge and so on.

 

The Monsters swings going in is accounted for.  I assumed the only survivor would be the commissar and the Platoon leader against a monster (though in reality the Monster probably only kills 3).  The Meltas and the Fists will do in MOST monsters though with the Honor of Cadia driving them fervently forward.

[Guest]

Lets face it:  If we don't kill the monster, it kills us.  Space Marine OR Imperial Guard unit.  The units fragility only matters BEFORE the desperate combat.  I definitely don't disagree that the unit is more fragile though of course.  Just that it will do far more than the Tacticals.

 

As for tank killing:  Vindettas can drop them into a ruin or whatever and they can charge from it afterwards.  So if you WANT to get to enemy tanks, you can.  However, it requires a good landing space.  Lots of tanks and drop pods come TO the IG though.  Lots.  I dont find that particularly unusual.  Outflanking Devilfish's, Rhinos, Wave Serpents trying to gank objectives late in the game, Dark Eldar Wyches o nthe charge and so on.

 

The Monsters swings going in is accounted for.  I assumed the only survivor would be the commissar and the Platoon leader against a monster (though in reality the Monster probably only kills 3).  The Meltas and the Fists will do in MOST monsters though with the Honor of Cadia driving them fervently forward.

Are you comparing a tactical squad to 5 or 6 T3 models with 5+ saves? Who cares about offensive power, look at defense. The tactical squad is constantly belittled online for it's lack of offensive power, in particular, the lack of specialized offensive power. The tactical squad is not lacking on defense. In your situation, you better pray you kill off the guy with a 5pt flamer because when you charge those SM the d3 flamer hits will ravage your little goon squad, as will snap firing bolters or thrown krak grenades.

 

"vindettas" do not have the assault vehicle rule. You cannot charge from them. You can barely land with them, as the grav chute causes dangerous terrain checks on any rolls that scatter and going into hover mode usually spells death for your flyers.

 

Also, remember a thing call cover? It's a pretty solid solution to those melta guns. I mean, only 2 will hit, on average, so you've got a nice cover save and the MC or dread is set. And some MCs even have a melta immunity.....(not many)

-Pax

 

EDIT: How are you getting an average of 2.5 wounds with shooting against T6?

[Lord Hanaur]

Yeah...I'm known for supporting this sort of thing and even I think it doesn't look good on paper.

 

Also, IG don't have any assault vehicles to make this work. Basically, you'd have to be ignored, approached while in a building, or all be mounted in an open-topped super heavy (like a storm lord). In general, seems like a really bad approach.

 

For notes, the IG power maul is only 1 strength less than the power fist. A maul and a melta bomb will cost the same as a fist and likely be much more effective.

 

Also, remember that melta bombs can now be used in assault with MCs and vehicles, so a demo vet squad has 10 attacks at S8 ap2 if locked with a MC, even if unwieldy. Hard to beat that unit for the stock 100pts it costs. 130pts with 3x melta guns too, and at higher BS.

-Pax

Yeah thats true, the meltabombs ARE great.  The unit goes for 130 points like you say.  A little cheaper.  

 

You're already going to SPEND 70 points on the Platoon command pretty much no matter what, whether you ALSO take Vets or not.  Its just too good a caddy to assassinate something important. So by paying 130 MORE in the list for vets, you're paying 200 points total for the role (70 for the platoon command and 130 for Vets)   I saw it as a net 30 point savings in the list because the monster is now dead and we may lose the Platoon command afterwards, but EITHER of those units would be in the same boat afterwards right?  Both would likely perish afterwards.  

 

So with the vets option, you're getting extra wounds but IG go for 5 points  model so that 30 point total savings i propose represents 6 wounds.  In other words you're gaining 4 net wounds by going with the Vets, plus their weapons if they ever fire at something besides what the Platoon command was already going to.

 

I know its convoluted math, but what i was looking at was that I want to spend as little as possible to protect the main Platoon from getting hit by a monster it cant win against and possibly getting tied up and unable to fire.  This platoon command can obliterate such a threat, and though likely to die afterwards unless terrain is very kind on consolidation, its 30 points less for the role and once its accomplished, another unit wouldn't be, strictly speaking, necessary.

 

Things with 2+ saves, once they get into you, its trouble.  Lysander is a great example.  That dude is a wrecking ball.  A platoon command PLUS veteran squad cannot kill him with their 7 meltas COMBINED!  COMBINED they do 1.1 wounds to Lysander, and then charge him.  Without the Powerfists...  Lysander beats them both down like little children.  WITH the Powerfists, the platoon command may actually lose by enough to stand their ground and finish him (1.11 unsaved wounds in melee as well).  

 

So Monsters are one issue, and Lysander type monsters are another.  The platoon command saves 30 points inthe pursuit of their destruction, albeit yes giving up a little too.

 

There's other examples of course but You kinda see where my mind is going.  now that we've discussed it some I am thinking i would probably only ever do it to one Platoon Command but its a valuable role that it fills.  Vets just can't take on Eternal Warrior threats like Lysander...

[Lord Hanaur]

"vindettas" do not have the assault vehicle rule. You cannot charge from them. You can barely land with them, as the grav chute causes dangerous terrain checks on any rolls that scatter and going into hover mode usually spells death for your flyers.

 

Also, remember a thing call cover? It's a pretty solid solution to those melta guns. I mean, only 2 will hit, on average, so you've got a nice cover save and the MC or dread is set. And some MCs even have a melta immunity.....(not many)

-Pax

 

EDIT: How are you getting an average of 2.5 wounds with shooting against T6?

I know you cant assault from them.  i was referring to the next turn.

 

And i am assuming "Bring it Down" orders have been issued.

 

Cover is fine but when the enemy comes to you, they aren't always getting cover.  there is an order you can give to force re-rolls on cover saves though if it seems like it will be a bigger issue.

 

Against Lysander, cover is irrelevant, but against Daemons it could be.

[WestRider]

I drop Melta PCSs out of Vendettas pretty often. As a rule, they don't survive to shoot a second time, and at BS3 (The things I need to drop Melta on from a Vendetta are usually way outside my CCS's Orders Range, so Bring It Down or Fire on My Target ain't happening), their first round of shooting is often not terribly impressive. Dumping another 100 Points into making the Unit more of a threat isn't going to help that.

 

What I've been shifting to more and more is a 35 Point PCS with just a Mortar to remind me to keep it out of LoS and camping an Objective somewhere in my backfield.

 

EDIT to poke at a couple more things:

 

 

Lets face it:  If we don't kill the monster, it kills us.  Space Marine OR Imperial Guard unit.  The units fragility only matters BEFORE the desperate combat.

When your main damage dealers are I1, fragility also really matters during the Combat. When you combine that with the likelihood of taking some damage before Charging, whether through Dangerous Terrain, Overwatch, or regular Enemy shooting, the outcome starts to look pretty bad.

 

Lysander: Trying to kill Lysander (or anyone with a Storm Shield who doesn't care about S8 causing Instant Death) with Melta is stupid. That's what either Plasma or good old massed small arms fire are for. Lysander+Squad are expensive enough to be worth shooting a proper Unit at, so dump the actual Platoon's firepower into him. It only takes like 40 Lasgun shots to equal the performance of all that Melta, and with FRFSRF, that's almost trivial.

[Guest]

I know you cant assault from them.  i was referring to the next turn.

 

And i am assuming "Bring it Down" orders have been issued.

 

Cover is fine but when the enemy comes to you, they aren't always getting cover.  there is an order you can give to force re-rolls on cover saves though if it seems like it will be a bigger issue.

So, your plan is to have an IG unit of 5 or 6 that lands within melta range, knocks 2.5 wounds on an MC and then just waits for the enemy to charge you? Seems like you'd die to shooting before the assault happened. You also might be assaulted by a different unit, which would really spoil your plans.

 

The big issue I see with this plan is that a platoon command squad is doing most of its reliable wounds with shooting. At 90pts, you've got 4x melta guns in a platoon command squad. Take 2 squads of those and you're slightly over the cost of your fist improvements.

 

Like, okay, so I've got a dreadknight. I have T6, 4 wounds and a 2+/5++. You drop, deal your 2.5 wounds, and then I just shoot you with some other unit's storm bolters. I don't really need to assault you. Let's say I do it anyway. I charge without going though cover (because if you dropped into cover, you's take dangerous terrain checks, likely killing a guardsmen and making the unit do less damage). So, at initiative 4, I swing 5 times (3 base, Dual CCWs, charge) and hit on threes. wound on 2s and inflict instant death. At Initiative 3, you lob krak grenades which hit on 4s, wound on 4s and the few that get though, don't deny my 2+ armor. So, now initiative 1 with fists, assuming you haven't aready died for some reason, you swing with 6 swings, hitting on 4s and wounding on 4s. so maybe 1.5 wounds against my 5++ is about 1 solid wound (I'm at 0.5 wounds...). You lose combat, likely by 4+, but your stubborn and stay in the fight. Next round, if there is a next round, you die as I've still got 4 attacks that hit on 3s and wound on 2s. 

 

I think the bigger issue is if the MC is a character, as they could challenge. If you refuse, they have 3 less fist attacks to worry about. If you accept, you lose a 3 fist attacks before they get to swing....

-Pax

[Lord Hanaur]

No, the plan is to hide them until they can charge.  Dropping them off would only be done if there was terrain to hide them in.

 

But if the big boy does charge i get my shots, i get overwatch and then i get to attack with 6 powerfist attacks which aren't the worst odds in the world.  But that wouldn't be the main plan.  Plan is to get the jump on em.  the bigger picture plan is to protect the main units from being tied up.  My PRIMARY fear for an army like the one I want to play is that the big blob will simply never fire after round 2.  Most of my anti-tank is in those units, so losing their ability to shot could be very bad.

 

Now i am talking EMERGENCY contingencies here.  By and large the army is already planned.  What I am having a real difficulty with is that i KNOW a canny general will see the value of locking me up interminably.  I need something mean enough to knock them back on their blocks and continuye the stream of death unabated.  Taking out a 200-300 point Monster model while doing it is not a bad outcome while I'm at it.

 

Nowhere else in the IG codex is there enough hitting power without involving the blobs.  You can really only get this kind of punch from the actual Platoon Commands or the Company Commands...or allies.

 

Outside of those sources, you really don't have a puncher in the force.  Ogryns are NOT the answer.  Rough riders ARE the answer to a lot of units, but of course they do have their unfortunate downside and they aren't AP 2 which is a critical distinction and they can't get their STR up for the challenge more than once.

 

So the options for melee ARE limited, like they are for Tau.  but unlike Tau, IG rely HEAVILY on their troops for many more roles than the Tau.  So they have to protect them instead of sacrificing them as easily as Tau can when forced.

 

I suppose a second command squad with Straken?  He's UBER beefy.  His unit is spendy but so is this.  hmm...

[Guest]

Hmmm....I see the issue. If allies are not the solution, I can suggest a few...

 

Conscripts (send in the next wave) can work if the opponent is near your deployment zone/table edge. Need to have the conscripts completely die a few times to get your points worth.

 

The demo vets with just the demo upgrade are a bargain against MCs and vehicles. You could add a priest for re-rolls to hit which should be useful if the priest lives.

 

On subject, the priest with the eviserator isn't a great deal, but it would help against vehicles and buildings.

 

Ogyrns are complete fail since smash is now S10. They were almost complete fail before that...

 

You could go with IG psykers, but many of the results are unreliable. Both the elite and the HQ psykers can have merit against the current meta. IG have biomancy and telepathy access for their HQ psyker, so they've got some options to that end.

 

If super heavies are allowed, the stormlord is presently listed as open-topped, therefore an assault vehicle. That solves some of the IG issues with melee.

 

Also, super heavy vehicles have that tank shock which can be pretty impressive against MCs (remember death or glory only stops it if they destroy it with the 1 auto hitting attack...).

 

If buildings are allowed, the buildings are able to be assaulted from since SA came out. Some options created there.

 

I think one of the wall of martyrs formations in the SA book allows models in those trenches to fire overwatch like the TAU do. 

 

In general, I'd focus on shooting them to death. If worried about blobs failing because they get locked, don't use the blob rule. I've found that 4 squads that take morale separately and have to be targeted separately are a bigger threat against some opponents. This is especially true with markerlight heavy TAU, as they have to marker each squad instead of just the one blob.

-Pax

[Stoobert]

A PCS (or better yet a CCS that is not your warlord) with Melta Guns has a useful purpose as an expendable delivery system for Str 8 API1 wounds.   If I knew I was going to shoot at a Riptide, I'd prefer Plasma, but of course you don't know that, and Melta is cheaper and higher strength and more useful "all around".  Addition of the commisar and close combat elements is a waste of points IMHO.  I'm saying this as a 2.5 year guardsman player.

[Lord Hanaur]

A PCS (or better yet a CCS) with Melta Guns has a useful purpose as an expendable delivery system for Str 8 API1 wounds.  Addition of thecommisar and close combat elements is a waste of points IMHO.  I'm saying this as a 2.5 year guardsman player.

Im a 10 year veteran of the IG (though i dont play them nearly as frequently as other forces).  Exploring unusual ideas is kind of my thing though.  I'm not in a position to say you're wrong.  I am just in a position to wonder out loud how to use such a tool.  

 

So I guess this is me throwing it out there for people to find a USEFUL way to maybe use it.  I can find 100 people on Dakkadakka that can tell me how "it'll never work".  We tend to have a few people on here who are at least willing to discuss it, if not actually support it, which is why i posted the question here and not there.  The incredible LACK of imagination on Dakkadakka is oppressive (though there are a few kindred spirits on Dakkadakka which is why i haven't completely abandoned it).  

 

Im not even sure *I* support this idea yet.  But I am interested in thinking about how to make it work for me.  I am interested in providing some close combat oomph to my army and i am just not convinced that the IG codex can do THIS job another way.

 

Consider that the 140 points could take the form of Special Weapons Squads, but they are the same basic size as PCS.  They are going to be able to be plasmatastic, but cant fight and aren't any moe accurate.  Still, a possibility.

 

It could take the form of heavy weapons teams but the AP 3 or 2 need makes ther lack of volume not great at the job.

 

So as i see it, good options might be:

 

Straken and company

 

This Platoon Command idea

 

Special Weapons Squad and skip the melee component altogether.

 

Special Weapons cant hold the line for a round, so it does take away some of what we were trying to accomplish which was stop the charge.  For if the special weapons aren't enough (and thats really really possible)  the charge will happen AND the special weapons squad will be lost.

 

So you can see why the ability to survive ONE round of combat provides a lot of value.  It halts an entire round of whatevr that daemon was going to do and forces it to face me in its shooting phase so i now can finish it off (or die trying), leaving it in the open.  Wraith knights being the really really annoying ones to deal with.

[Guest]

Well, marbo's pretty awesome in assault, if he lives long enough to get there. But, yeah, not much for melee in the codex.

 

I've had decent odds with power mauls on IG sarges. Normal initiative, high strength, doesn't deny much armor, but does deny some. The concussive rule is awesome if you can get it to work. Very notable is the sheer number of attacks on an IG sarge. I mean, for a 5-10pt model, the stock infantry squad sarge has 4 attacks on the charge. That's really pretty profound. It's enough to occasionally win against tactical squad sergeants in challenges, especially if the opponent has unwieldy weapons. With the mauls, same attacks, hits stock marines on 4s, wounds on 3s, so like half a wound per round, but that S5 works at allowing the infantry squads to damage the rear of vehicles and deny scout marines their carapace save. Still, usually not worth the points.

 

INQ/GK allies are basically IG if you don't include the actual GK elements...Pretty much all the IG melee potential is found in this.

-Pax

[generalripphook]

well its my opinion that (other then a tar pitting blob) an imperial guard unit should die upon being assaulted by any force(barring some really weak things).....this means the enemy is not tied up in combat and we can shoot em again. 

[Lord Hanaur]

Let me show you the list I am working on.  As you'll see there's a real threat to their ability to score if that unit gets tied up for overmuch time.

 

There are a couple of changes coming due to things that have been pointed out to me, namely the redundant commissar and the PERHAPS kneejerk inclusion I made of a Hydra (both skimmers and flyers are in almost every enemy list so it does not seem a waste anymore to have a Flak tank BUUUUUT...  My Vindettas MIGHT be enough to handle things.  So there are points to spend when Im done tweaking but this is where its at now.

 

2000 Pts - Imperial Guard Roster

 

    1 Inquisitor Coteaz

  

4 Company Command Squad + Carapace Armor
      1 Lord Castellan Creed,
      1 Chimera (Hunter Killer Missile)

 

 4 Platoon Command Squad, + Meltagun x4
         1 Platoon Commander
 
7 Infantry Squad, + Grenade Launcher x1
         1 Heavy Weapons Team, + Lascannon
         1 Sergeant, + Power Weapon + Melta bomb
         1 Commisar + power weapon

 

7 Infantry Squad, + Grenade Launcher x1
         1 Heavy Weapons Team, + Lascannon
         1 Sergeant, + Power Weapon +_ Melta Bomb

 

7 Infantry Squad, + Grenade Launcher x1
         1 Heavy Weapons Team, + Lascannon
         1 Sergeant, + Power Weapon + Melta bomb

 

7 Infantry Squad, + Grenade Launcher x1
         1 Heavy Weapons Team+ Lascannon
         1 Sergeant, + Power Weapon + Melta bomb

 

4 Platoon Command Squad, + Meltagun x4
            1 Platoon Commander
   
7 Infantry Squad, + Grenade Launcher x1
         1 Heavy Weapons Team, + Lascannon
         1 Sergeant, + Power Weapon + Meltabomb

 

7 Infantry Squad, + Grenade Launcher x1

         1 Heavy Weapons Team, + Lascannon
         1 Sergeant, + Power Weapon + Melta Bomb

 

7 Infantry Squad+ Grenade Launcher x1
         1 Heavy Weapons Team, + Lascannon
         1 Sergeant, + Power Weapon + Melta Bomb

 

1 Guardsman Marbo

 

6 Psyker Battle Squad
      1 Overseer

 

7 Psyker Battle Squad
      1 Overseer

 

1 Vendetta+ Heavy Bolter Sponsons x2
1 Vendetta+ Heavy Bolter Sponsons x2
    
1 Manticore

 

1 Leman Russ Exterminator + Lascannon+ Heavy Bolter Sponsons x2

 

Models:  109 models
HQ: 1
Elite: 3
Troops: 4-9
Fast: 1 (or 2?)
Heavy: 2

[Lord Hanaur]

well its my opinion that (other then a tar pitting blob) an imperial guard unit should die upon being assaulted by any force(barring some really weak things).....this means the enemy is not tied up in combat and we can shoot em again. 

Except with this build, the troops are 40 strong and 30 strong respectively, with commissars.  So the charge gives the 40 man unit 20 STR 5 Power axe attacks.  So in this case,,,  Melee with them is not as easy as other places.  BUT, the trouble is the lascannons and Grenade launchers need to be free to fire as long as they can.  It will often be the case that we face multiwound and monstrous things as well as tanks.  We gotta spend some TIME popping them, time that we will lose if we get tied up.  Mechanized eldar in particular are WELL known for their hulls ability to reduce penetrates to glances so EVEN if the cover save fails, we still have a pretty tough row to ho getting through those hulls.  A WraithKnight could end our chances of that (for example).  DreadKnights are no less a risk.

 

so it pays to have a bulwark.  Maybe.

[ChaosGerbil]

PCS' can't order themselves to Bring it Down, that's another reason to stick the melta spam on a CCS in a vehicle.

 

I think you're spending a lot of points on upgrades that could get you another tank, or even two.

[Lord Hanaur]

I think you can order your own unit though. I'm not aware of a restriction to giving yourself orders?

[generalripphook]

They don't have the order....they have move move move, incoming and first rank fire second rank fire... That's off the top of my head, can someone with book access confirm this?

[Guest]

the order?

[ChaosGerbil]

That sounds correct to me generalripphook.

[AbusePuppy]

Yeah, PCS don't get Bring It Down, Fire On My Target, or Get Back in the Fight- those are for the CCS only.

[Lord Hanaur]

So Creed would issue it then, which i suppose doesn't matter to me much who casts out the order honestly.