Stubborn/Unbreakable units in narrow ranks: house rule suggestions?

[mojoslayer]

I'm sorry, but what is the big deal with a conga line?  To me, many real tactics can't be applied to this game, so one should use the tactics that are presented to obtain the desired goal, it's not "gamey" its just using the rules to dictate the outcome which is called tactics.  Honestly I want to junk punch people who complain about people who play the rules smartly.  By the way, there are plenty of ways to beat a conga line, only rarely do they gain you an advantage.  I mean, why don't we get rid of redirecting?  It's gamey isn't it, redirecting, because it's not how combat really worked, charging units did not wheel to make contact with a unit at a slight angle they charged forward blowing through everything they touched.  I see conga lines as a legit way to play, and we should end the hate and learn to embrace the rules for what they are.   

[McNathanson]

I think you said it well RoG, albeit more passionately than I would have... but you always had a more dramatic flair to your posts!  It's part of why I love you, haha!

 

It boils down to this for me: everything is better when we're playing by rules that are set up ahead of time, instead of unspoken or implied.  With a proper rules set, there isn't any of this grey area that we bandaid-fix with sports score, dice offs, etc.  And both players are free to do their best within the rules without feeling like they're being a douche!

 

Additionally, I think the varied responses to this thread alone shows why "don't worry because nobody does that" doesn't really fly.

I like the house rule proposed by RoG.  Anyone see any issues with it straight off?  If not, I'll just try to use that in a few games, and see if anything comes up!

Thanks,
Nathan

[MexicanNinja]

Forming up in weird formations is key for my fast cav at times.  I am against house rules which dictate how I must deployform units.

[Munkie]

I think what Munkie is saying is that artillery players are placing their warmachine sideways, right against the deployment line.  When you go to fire, you pivot the barrel over the deployment line and therefore gain an inch or so.   If your opponent has also deployed a unit on his deployment line, you should be able to hit them (if you're using a helblaster or something similar with a 24" range).

 

I wasn't saying that, MexicanNinja was. I was clarifying because I misunderstood what he was saying. But I'm tracking now.

[ClassicFlava]

I think what Munkie is saying is that artillery players are placing their warmachine sideways, right against the deployment line.  When you go to fire, you pivot the barrel over the deployment line and therefore gain an inch or so.   If your opponent has also deployed a unit on his deployment line, you should be able to hit them (if you're using a helblaster or something similar with a 24" rang

is this happening in games?  I have never seen it and hope i never do.  

[Swan-of-War]

Not that I'm aware of Flava - I was just trying to explain what someone else was commenting on.

 

I think we all just need to put Warhammer aside and start walking around the room windmilling our arms.  If somone else's junk gets in the way... tough luck.

[mojoslayer]

ClassicFlava, warmachine pivoting is common practice and is a part of the game especially if you go to major tournaments.  Why do you hope to never see it?  I applaud peoples ability to use their brain on these maters, if someone figures out how to use tactics to gain an advantage then more power to them.  If GW sees it as a problem, then they should mount warmachines on round templates and the "problem" is solved.  I mount all my war machines on round templates now for hobby reasons, so I can't get away with this kind of move, but would have no problem at all if someone used it against me.  

[ratrek]

ClassicFlava, warmachine pivoting is common practice and is a part of the game especially if you go to major tournaments.  Why do you hope to never see it?  I applaud peoples ability to use their brain on these maters, if someone figures out how to use tactics to gain an advantage then more power to them.  If GW sees it as a problem, then they should mount warmachines on round templates and the "problem" is solved.  I mount all my war machines on round templates now for hobby reasons, so I can't get away with this kind of move, but would have no problem at all if someone used it against me.  

 

A reasonable conclusion, but as it's been shown, GW has problems writing clear and cogent rules nor do they particularly care about game balance. Thus it often comes down to the players and/or community to make changes.

[ClassicFlava]

ClassicFlava, warmachine pivoting is common practice and is a part of the game especially if you go to major tournaments.  Why do you hope to never see it?  I applaud peoples ability to use their brain on these maters, if someone figures out how to use tactics to gain an advantage then more power to them.  If GW sees it as a problem, then they should mount warmachines on round templates and the "problem" is solved.  I mount all my war machines on round templates now for hobby reasons, so I can't get away with this kind of move, but would have no problem at all if someone used it against me.  

putting something on a base that it doesnt come with so that you can pivot it and gain extra range does not qualify as tactics in my book.  

[Munkie]

putting something on a base that it doesnt come with so that you can pivot it and gain extra range does not qualify as tactics in my book.  

 

No! What have I begun?! Nobody suggested that, I misread. They're talking about using long models like the hellblaster and putting them on the edge of the DZ and then pivoting out to get the extra range. Same concept but not modeling for advantage--just taking advantage of the model.

 

As far as solutions go, it's kind of absurd that war machines don't have bases yet. Putting them on a base and doing all measurements to the base would solve pretty much every issue with war machines. Hopefully GW figures that out for 9th.

[mojoslayer]

putting something on a base that it doesnt come with so that you can pivot it and gain extra range does not qualify as tactics in my book.  

 

Respectfully, I disagree.

 

Tactics is the art and science of the detailed direction and control of movement or manoeuvre of forces in battle to achieve an aim or task. 

 

The aim of my set up is to get closer so I can shoot, therefore I direct my hellblaster to set up like this.  I do think war machines should have basses, round ones, but until it happens this is a legit tactic.

 

I see monsters doing the same thing in order to lesser their chance of getting hit by a cannon, whats the difference?  I can't see why a monster would ever show me their side, but game wise it makes perfect sense.       

 

 

I don't personally like the En passant move in chess, it is total BS in my opinion, but it is part of the game and instead of getting irritated about it I have learned to deal with it.

 

By the way, please no one take what I'm saying as being spiteful or confrontational, just trying to add to the conversation.

[McNathanson]

Respectfully, I disagree.

 

Tactics is the art and science of the detailed direction and control of movement or manoeuvre of forces in battle to achieve an aim or task. 

 

The aim of my set up is to get closer so I can shoot, therefore I direct my hellblaster to set up like this.  I do think war machines should have basses, round ones, but until it happens this is a legit tactic.

 

I see monsters doing the same thing in order to lesser their chance of getting hit by a cannon, whats the difference?  I can't see why a monster would ever show me their side, but game wise it makes perfect sense.       

 

 

I don't personally like the En passant move in chess, it is total BS in my opinion, but it is part of the game and instead of getting irritated about it I have learned to deal with it.

 

By the way, please no one take what I'm saying as being spiteful or confrontational, just trying to add to the conversation.

 

Ahh, "Tactics"!  This *might* be the longest standing disagreement on Internet Warhammer :)

Truly, this is just a matter of taste, and there's no right or wrong.  Some people prefer to push every rule to its fullest, and do everything within the confines of the rules that they can in order to maximize their chance of victory.  No judgement intended in my phrasing!  

 

Other people prefer to refrain from doing certain things because it detracts from the narrative unfolding in their minds.  Again, no judgement.

 

And of course, everything in between.

 

My personal feeling is that for tournament play, the rules should be complete… there should be *no* room for doing things that are judged "lame".  RoG said it best: we need to play by the same set of rules, agreed upon before the game starts, NOT the unspoken, unwritten, rules in my head type of thing.  It's just not fair to downgrade someone's sportsmanship for doing something within the rules.  But that's not the reality of WFB, never has been.  GW just isn't good enough at rules writing.

 

So in the meantime, I personally prefer to play games where models face roughly the way they look like they should be facing, because sideways monsters and sideways war machines really do ruin the aesthetic for me, just as much (or more) than unpainted models.  So if an opponent did that, I would politely (I hope) request that they not do it, and if they refused, probably try to find other people to play with, because the visual spectacle of the game is pretty important to me.

 

But it's just a matter of taste!

[Brother Glacius]

Play more Kings of War. Unit sizes and formations are set. ;)

 

Btw, when are we gonna throw down again NtK?

[Gunnerson]

I have to say Im in the boat with Mojo on this one. I do think it looks kind of dumb to have a Warsphinx sideways at the 12in mark but whatever its a game and my cannon just has a larger surface area to shoot at. As far as War Machines on a base? They dont come with one. I don't care if you put it on one. Its looks better in most cases. Keep in mind if you measure from the base rather than the machine I am measuring to the base too. So really no big deal. The conga line looks dumb but if you can get it to work then more power to you! I once managed to get a conga line of slayers to charge a Bloodthirster, ohhhh happy day (3 had been upgraded to champs). The guy I played has not been willing to "risk" his Greater Ds' any time I might be able to reform and congaline charge him (a lot harder now with the new anvil).

[Kremmet]

I just find it interesting that some of the people here arguing for the kick-in-the-balls method used to pull very similar moves in 7th ed.  It didn't work all that well then and it still doesn't now.  There just simply isn't enough of a mechanical reason to block this particular tactic.

[Ring_of_Gyges]

Pivoting a war machine for extra range is independent of whether it is on a base.

 

People seem to be misunderstanding the practice.  Here is what it is:

 

Step 1:

 

Deploy Cannon like so:  The red dot is the center of the model, the black line is the edge of your deployment zone.

 

Step 2: 

When you're turn comes round, take a fee pivot like so:

 

 

The red dot is still the center and the black line is still the edge of your deployment zone.  Because the cannon is longer in one dimension than the other, pivoting around the center moves the barrel a little bit towards the enemy.

 

I used a cannon as an illustration because the image was handy, but the principle is more effectively used on a Hellblaster which has a 24" range and otherwise couldn't hit something deployed against the edge of the enemy deployment zone.  The extra inch or so doesn't really matter for a cannon, but it can be handy for a hellblaster.

[MexicanNinja]

Now that organ guns are now 30", by all means deploy that helblaster sideways.

[mojoslayer]

Ring of Gyges, you are correct.  I need to go into more detail on how to use the base and not get the bonus.  If you use a round base, 60mm, for a warmachine, and measure from the base instead of the barrel, then it works.