Stubborn/Unbreakable units in narrow ranks: house rule suggestions?

[McNathanson]

What would be a good house rule to fix the stupid "1 model wide Black Guard unit with a 1+ AS BSB in the front" play?

 

Obviously I don't have to do it (and I don't), but wondering if anyone has come up with an elegant house rule to make conga lines go away?  I was thinking, for example, that it might be cool to require units to form full ranks if possible.

 

Does it remove anything good from the game if you don't allow narrow formations?

[Swan-of-War]

A punch to the junk solves a lot of these shenanigans.

 

Requiring full ranks might be reaching too far as you would force a unit of Ogres 2x2 to go a full 4 wide and possibly miss out on attack or clip or whatever

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Wow, I heard of stories about the conga line but I didn't think players still cheesed out like that anymore.

 

My house rule suggestion would be to have units that can form at least a min rank must do so. Fast cav being the exception.

 

Or just inform the player if they intend to abuse the rule you will finish the game but will not play against it in the future.

 

Never understood the WAAC players. Why try so hard to make the game no fun to play.

[McNathanson]

Wouldn't Ogres have to form just 3 wide?  But I see your point: MC or MI might want to run 2x2 to get more attacks against narrower models like chariots.  Hmm.

Maybe the "Junk Punch™ Rule" is the best option :)

BTW for the record I fully expect that nobody I play with would actually do this, but I just wondered if there we be a clean and elegant house rule to fix it from being a potential source of un-fun (say, at OFCC or something).

Maybe just require ranks (where possible) for infantry or cavalry models (agreed not Fast Cav)?  Are there stubborn and/or unbreakable multi-wound models for which a conga line is advantageous?

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Well there is no polite way to say it without them getting deffensive. Players like this know even though they won't admit it, that they are stretching a rule's wording to take advantage of an opponent even though they know it is in poor sportsmanship.

 

People that know they are doing something wrong get very argumentitive and will accuse you of not being a good sportsman by calling it out.

[McNathanson]

Well there is no polite way to say it without them getting deffensive. Players like this know even though they won't admit it, that they are stretching a rule's wording to take advantage of an opponent even though they know it is in poor sportsmanship.

 

People that know they are doing something wrong get very argumentitive and will accuse you of not being a good sportsman by calling it out.

 

Right, that's why I'm thinking of suggesting a house rule in advance!  Working things like this out mid-game is just asking for negative energy :)

[rudra34]

Eh, conga line all day long if you want.   A tactic like this is annoying and cheesy, but far from game breaking.   If somebody wants to make a blackgaurd unit with an expensive character in it and a giant exposed flank, then so be it.  It's just another thing to be prepared for, and honestly a small unit of unbreakable/stubborn whatevers is not terribly intimidating.

[Drak]

I would protest against a house rule that mandated players take units in ranks as has been suggested. the junk punch rule covers most scenarios like this well. inform a player that such a such tactic was "douche" and that for furtive games to be an option to leave those shenanigans at home.

 

when it comes to OFCC , I feel the sportsmanship votes cover this aspect nicely.

[dkieft]

NtK,

 

If there are any of these players in our area I don't know of them. Not that I am at too many events, but I don't even hear stories on Ordo of "That douche I played the other day..."

 

Maybe I missed it, but the elusive player that does this may or may not be Bigfoot. Or maybe it is that Ordo is the cool community and there is a shadow community of dicks out there...

 

Anyway, the only place I have seen the tactic is on the interwebz... and more people worrying about it than people suggesting it as a valid tactic.

 

 

Now if facing one... Engage to the front with an armor killer (that gives you about 6 models attacking to his 2), or kill the unit with shooting/spells, flank charge it with something nasty (remember he'll have no supporting attacks )... how about a cannon ball?

 

Anyway, we all know the rest of the army (and yours) will matter on how you can deal with it, but there are certainly ways, and as others say, "Junk Punch" is the best.

[MexicanNinja]

I have to strongly disagree about stating how many models must be in a rank.  I know I use the tactic to shrink or expand my frontage when in combat to negate counter charges or to force a charge to my front rather than a flank.  I have yet to see the conga line for Black Guard.  I would openly let my opponent do that.  They are wasting a ton of point on a 10 man unit just to stick a 1+ re-rollable in there.  Here are the common conga's I see:

 

1) 10 skellies with 1-2 cairn wraiths in the front

2) Reform to a conga line, make a swift reform, enter a building

 

The conga line opens up a very nice flank to your opponent.  Also, black guard die to shooting, they only have a 5+ save.

 

Whether people view the conga as a WAAC, cheesy, unorthodox, or unethical, it's part of someone's strategy.  I would be like making a house rule that all armies with acces to war machines could only ever use 2, or that you could only ever attempt to to cast 2 spells in the magic phase.  House rules which start to enfore playstyle is what usually turns people away from a group.  Does the conga line upset me?  No, there are plenty of other things I am concered about that a conga line.  Have any of you ever complained when someone takes a character with a pistol in order to make stand and shoot reactions with handguns negate the long range modifier?

 

I will also add, that when you do see these tactics that maybe this is what that player was used to doing because of the current meta in their area or gaming group.  It also teaches others on how to deal with it.  Here's an example, lots of people at WoW would ask me why I deployed my chariots sideways.  Once I explained it to them, they just said, "Oh".  Was it cheesy?  Most likely.  Did it give me extra movement during turn 1?  It sure did.  Has anyone complained to me about doing that?  No, they have accepted it and either ignored it or overcame it.

 

Scenario 2:

Deploying a war machine on the max deploy line (say a hellblaster) sideways.  Pivot turn 1 and now you can shoot into the enemies deployment zone.  Cheating?  I don't think so.  I believe this is a great tactic in order to get an extra turn of shooting out of it.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Still it is funny the number one suggestion is the Junk Punch. Luckily we don't seem to have this issue in the local meta because the WAAC players appear to be into 40K and Warmachine as of now. (Just my opinion here, and not saying those games aren't fun.)

 

Also deploying chariots and cannons sideways is not a cheese ball move, IMO, and honestly doesn't give that player a game changing advantage. An extra 1/2" to an 1" more of a threat range, yes, but that is not going to win a game. (Yes there could be an argument as to how things like this add to your winning chances but it still relies more on what happens after that.)

 

In fact I saw a discussion on BoLS that was about the "fun" of Fantasy vs 40K with balance issues an the chances of a WAAC player to ruin a fun game. Fantasy appears to be more balanced and more in spirit of playing a tactical game vs working the system to get the win. And I agree.

[HeroZero]

I hate conga lines. I hate the idea of them. Not because I want to ban them.I just hate them because they are either 1) a sign of a douche pickle of a player trying to win at the expense of fun. 2) or an inexperienced douche pickle trying to win and needs to use any advantage.

 

I think sports scores even this out, no need for a house rule.

 

Besides this is no where close to the cheesiest of all tactics.

For that see building swift reforms anda few others.

[ClassicFlava]

if this happened in a tournamnet game I wouldnt say anything and would just grade down their sportsmanship. In a one off game I would just let them know how I felt about the tactic (nicely of course) and go from there.

 

As far as deploying stuff sideways for extra movement fist turn, I would say its a little shady.

[Munkie]

Are war machines supposed to be on chariot bases? I've never received a base with any of my war machines.

[ratrek]

Aside from the whole reform into a building crap, I don't really care.

[MexicanNinja]

Are war machines supposed to be on chariot bases? I've never received a base with any of my war machines.

War machines are not required to have a base. 

[Munkie]

War machines are not required to have a base.

 

So wouldn't putting them on a base, and then use the dimensions of that base to squeeze extra range out of them be the very definition of modeling for advantage?

[rudra34]

You don't get extra range from having bigger bases.  War machine range comes from the machine itself, not the base.

[McNathanson]

Forget about the house rule for OFCC.  I'm in no place to make that happen, even if I wanted to.  The point was to make a house rule that could be used at a gaming event (even just "game night") to easily eliminate conga lines without taking anything good away.  Sure we can count on everyone's good graces, but that's what we should do IF there is no "win/win" rule to fix it, right?  I mean, why leave gaps if there's a simple and elegant fix that doesn't take away anything good?

 

And oops, I think my straw man idea got taken too seriously!  It was just an example, and MexicanNinja already gave several good reasons why minimum full-rank frontage is a bad idea when he said, "I use the tactic to shrink or expand my frontage when in combat to negate counter charges or to force a charge to my front rather than a flank."  Good enough for me.  

So: any suggestion for an elegant way to eliminate conga lines, without taking anything good away at the same time?

[MexicanNinja]

So wouldn't putting them on a base, and then use the dimensions of that base to squeeze extra range out of them be the very definition of modeling for advantage?

You don't close the door on war machines, you just need to contact any part of the war machine.  You could be looking at the front of the war machine and hit it at a weird angle.  Everything is measured to and from the chasis, not a base.

[MexicanNinja]

NTK, the conga line is also used for strategic moves and plays.  Prime example would be with a brettonian army.  I will give a few examples though:

 

1) You have a unit of 9 knights errant on the left flank of your army.  Your opponent has 2 units of fast cav in front of them.  You don't want those fast cav behind your lines.  You then reform into a single rank of 12 to disallow the move behind your left flank.

 

2) You deploy you unit of 10 shooters (hand gunners, crossbowmen, etc.) in a single rank of 10 at the very front of your army to ensure they can maximize their shooting potential.  The first time they are charged they stand and shoot.  The second time they are charged they flee behind your lines to safety.

 

You could apply the same shananigans with a single rank as you could with a conga line.  Some tactics are more brutal than the conga line.  Again, I have only seen the conga used with units of 10 skeletons from vampire counts.  This isn't a common sight at most places, as it is easily countered by an experienced general.  If you are seeing the tactic for the first time, odds are you won't make the same mistake against it again.

[Munkie]

You don't get extra range from having bigger bases.  War machine range comes from the machine itself, not the base.

 

Gotcha. I thought it was in reference to putting them on rectangular bases like chariot ones and spinning those out of the DZ. NVM then

[HeroZero]

How to stop douche playing?

 

Don't ban the tactic ban the behavior!

Clearly state what kind of environment that games are being played in your area

Then state that if you violate that trust you may be asked to not come back.

[Ring_of_Gyges]

Boo to unwritten rules and dick punching.  Boo I say!

 

NTK asked for a house rule, that's fine by me.  Try "A unit may only contain a second rank if it's front rank is at least five models wide in the case of infantry, war beasts or cavalry, or three models wide in the case of monstrous infantry, monstrous cavalry, swarms or chariots."  Some people like 2x2 monstrous infantry, which would be forbidden under the above, but personally I find them funny looking (the units, not the players.  Well, ok, some of the players too, but mainly the units).  Easy peasy.  If a tournament announced they were instituting that rule, it wouldn't affect my decision to attend one way or the other.

 

What I can't stand is the idea that we don't need to change the rules, we can just get mad when people do things permitted by the rules.  I find it infinitely worse sportsmanship to object to an unambiguously legal move than any of the "cheese" examples provided.  I don't like en passant, it's an exception to how pawns normally move, it's not necessary, it adds ugly clutter to an otherwise elegant game.  That's on me though, my opponents get to make legal moves and play the game we agreed to play not the secret one that only exists in my head.

Abnormally narrow units are dishonorable, well except when it's fast cavalry (but maybe only while they're moving), or maybe when its Ogres, well four Ogres, not other numbers , but definitely not if you've got a character in the unit, or if there is a challenge, or if it puts a BSB into the second rank.  Single file stubborn units are right out (unless it's a lone stubborn model like a Beast of Nurgle, then it is a redirector and can be in one rank).  Pivoting immediately after deployment is fine, or maybe its not, or maybe ok for chariots but not for war machines (or was it vice versa?).  It's poor sportsmanship to expect other people to accommodate rules that a) they never agreed to and b) haven't been written down.

 

Boo unwritten rules.  If you say "let's play Warhammer", I'm going to assume you mean the rules in the big book that says "Warhammer" on the cover.  If you expect me to follow a rule sanity requires you tell me what it is first.

If you want to change the rules, knock yourself out, GW isn't owed any special deference, I'm sure there are all sorts of rules changes that would improve the game (I'd like to see flank charges break steadfast for example and while we're at it bring back lapping round).  What you don't get to do is change the rules unilaterally mid-game without notice and pretend objecting to surprise Calvin-ball is poor sportsmanship.

[Swan-of-War]

I think what Munkie is saying is that artillery players are placing their warmachine sideways, right against the deployment line.  When you go to fire, you pivot the barrel over the deployment line and therefore gain an inch or so.   If your opponent has also deployed a unit on his deployment line, you should be able to hit them (if you're using a helblaster or something similar with a 24" range).