Portland Meta?

[SPaceORK]

6 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said:

you added the blah blah blah. Pretty sure I didn't put that in there. I would appreciate it when you quote me in the future to not change what I type.

Please.

I'll do what I want.

I didn't violate any rules so...sorry you dislike it?

But now that we dislike each other, I'll refrain from paying attention to anything you say. 

[peter.cosgrove]

I wasn't saying I dislike it. It's out of place for something for me to say. When I use that term it has a specified purpose. By placing that colloquial saying into one of my statements it changes it's tone. And since I did not want to convey that particular tone to the statement it wasn't something that I would add. By adding the term you are, in essence, putting words into my mouth.

[SPaceORK]

10 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said:

I wasn't saying I dislike it. It's out of place for something for me to say. When I use that term it has a specified purpose. By placing that colloquial saying into one of my statements it changes it's tone. And since I did not want to convey that particular tone to the statement it wasn't something that I would add. By adding the term you are, in essence, putting words into my mouth.

I had a wonderful rebuttal to your comment but I realized you love this stuff so... feth off?

I'll ignore your comments and you can ignore mine. 

Now lets both stop hijacking this thread.

[peter.cosgrove]

You assume there is a partnership to the conversation. However, I did not address an original comment to you. It was, in fact, you who started the side bar. It would have been more appropriate for you to send me a private message I think.

[InfestedKerrigan]

Lol, B, you can't stir up a bees nest and try to high road.

 

 

At OP, as for Multi Knights, that's what I run. And I try to run them in pick up games, too. When I say multiple, I have 4 at the moment, and a Lord of Skulls.  As with any army, when playing pick up games, you have to know when and how to hold punches.  

I also have Chaos and Imperium I can run when the Knights are too much, or larger games. 

Deathguard are a pretty forgiving army, especially for MEq. Disgustingly Resilient and Poxwalkers covering your gunlines. Good Psychic potential and Stratagem uses. 

[peter.cosgrove]

On 11/4/2017 at 10:58 AM, brettdavis1991 said:

Hi me and my roommate are just getting into 40k painting up first armies. I'm going Death Guard (later switching to Dark Angels when codex drops) he is going Ultramarines. 

The Death Guard Helbrute with 2 lascannon and missile launcher is VERY hard to beat. BS 3 with no move/shoot heavy weapons penalty and the points cost is very economical for a single 8 wound model with 3 48" threat distance D6 damage weapons.

cheap troop choices are very good, the pox walkers/plague zombies with the 5+ FNP disgustingly resilient and the pox walker can't fail a morale check plus the plague zombie stuff.

Plague marines have always been able to take 2/3 plasma guns and now the combi/plas can shoot every turn

Taking a brigade detachment is cake, 3 preds with 4 lascannons, 3 helbrutes with 2 lascannon/ML, and 3 nurgle beasts to block out the deep strike in the back corners.

Lastly, the ability to take a stock index sorc with dark hereticus and a DG sorc of some kind gives you access to 4 smites a turn plus Warp Time.

Mortarion sounds like he's going to be billy badass, worse than Magnus.

[Lord Hanaur]

On 11/5/2017 at 8:48 PM, paxmiles said:

 

Anyway, I did peek at the guard book. Nothing overpowered in there. But, like the Knights, if you are unprepared there are things may seem overpowered until you start preparing for them. 

For the O

...and yet...  tournamnet results are saying very firmly that you should be very cognizant of what you see there...

[WestRider]

1 hour ago, Lord Hanaur said:

...and yet...  tournamnet results are saying very firmly that you should be very cognizant of what you see there...

The thing about Guard right now is that any individual Unit from the Dex looks more or less reasonable. What takes them over the top is the way they combine cheap screens with strong long-range firepower and good support/buff options. I can easily see how someone unfamiliar with Tournament play could underestimate the Dex by only reading it.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Lord Hanaur said:

...and yet...  tournamnet results are saying very firmly that you should be very cognizant of what you see there...

Westrider is correct in that I am unfamiliar with tourament play. Though that GG league is pretty cutthoat at times. And I haven't had a chance to look at the FW AM rules. 

But for the codex, it doesn't look "unbalanced" based on anything in the codex. They look strong, but not overpowered (as in, unbalanced in how strong they are).

I do think the Brigade detachment (which is not found in that codex) may be unbalanced with regard to that codex, but that isn't an issue with the codex.  

Does that make sense?

[InfestedKerrigan]

That would be a dex issue, not Brigade issue. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

That would be a dex issue, not Brigade issue. 

I think AM is just the first codex with both cheap slot options and stratagems. I don't think this issue is unique to AM, as I picture a repeat issue with any codex that has viable and cheap slot fillers. I think the Brigade is the issue. 

It just grants too many command points, with no regard to how many points the brigade represents. 

Anyway, I haven't played much, so take it with a grain of salt. I'm just noting my observations of the codex and how it fits within the existing meta. 

I also think that 8e hasn't be out long enough to have a real handle on all the various tactics that can be done in this edition. Give it a couple years. 

[SPaceORK]

Currently the only broken thing in the IG codex that hasn't been FAQed is mortar teams.

 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Spaceork said:

Currently the only broken thing in the IG codex that hasn't been FAQed is mortar teams.

 

Missed them. What makes them broken?

[SPaceORK]

5 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Missed them. What makes them broken?

11 points a piece post FAQ, squads of three, no los needed, d6 "bolter" shots.

So in a heavy detachment you can pump out 24d6 "bolter" shots for 250ish points with no los needed at 48".

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Spaceork said:

11 points a piece post FAQ, squads of three, no los needed, d6 "bolter" shots.

So in a heavy detachment you can pump out 24d6 "bolter" shots for 250ish points with no los needed at 48".

So what's the problem? That's basically what they were in every other edition. No LOS, but each is mounted on a 60mm base, so there are space issues with excessive heavy weapon teams. 

As for facing them, basically, as the opponent, I have 3 choices.

Firstly, I can attempt to ignore them. With high toughness, good saves, and a static penalty on shooting attacks (like an Alpha Legion army of hellbrutes and daemon princes), I may just ignore them.

Secondly, I could stay out of range. Only 48" so depending on placement and table size, I may be able to stay out of range if I have an army with superior range. Moving and firing is not very practical for AM heavy weapon teams.

Third, I could engage them with melee or shooting. Heavy d6 isn't very reliable for overwatch, and heavy weapon teams aren't very durable in assault. I could shoot them, and they aren't particularly durable (6, T3 wounds per unit, only a 5+ save). And it's not like MSU means I can't divide fire. Plus if they spam lots of big based units in tight confinement, they may deny their own fall back option.

It's a good weapon when attacking T3 opponents with bad saves and no penalties to hit, as a Mortar should be. Against MEQ (without modfiers), even with your 24 d6 shots, only 12d6 hit and 6d6 wound, with only 2d6 actually wounding after armor saves.

And those same marines in a basic Rhino are looking at no dead marines, and a mostly alive rhino. By comparison, a Rhino is a meager 72pts and is 10 wounds, T7 with a 3+ save. So if I plan to engage your Mortars, it's an easy counter. And, at most, we start 40-ish inches appart. So turn 1 they travel 12+d6" and pop smoke. You shoot at them, so the 24d6 hits with 8d6, wounds with under 3d6, and does, at most, 1d6 wounds. D6 wounds isn't enough to degrade the rhino, so it advances again, now having traveled 24+2d6". You fire again, this time without the smoke penalty, for 12d6 hits and 4d6 wounds, which is about d6 wounds after armor saves. So, with average damage rolling, you've degraded the rhino to the point where it isn't useful as a transport, but isn't destroyed. Marines get out 3" and move 6" for a total of 33+d6" traveled. That should put them in rapid fire range and likely able to charge (rapid firing no longer prevents charging, as far as I can tell). And Marines should eventually win assault against heavy weapon teams, especially if you deployed against the board edge and don't really have room to fall back...

It's 130pts for 10 marines. Another 72pts for a Rhino with combi-bolter. Using CSM costs, since I don't know the loyalist costs (probably similar). So as a comparison in isolation, that's 202pts of CSM. I know, games are not fought in isolation. CSM are also likely to have spendy heavy, special, and/or melee weapons within that, so it's probably closer to a 250pt unit. 

[WestRider]

1) If you ignore them, that damage will add up. Not to mention what the rest of their Army is doing.

2) If you stay outside of 48", you lose on Objectives. Hard. You staying far away from them is an IG Army's favourite scenario.

3) They're going to be screened by a ton of super cheap Conscripts, and will, in turn, be screening things like Basilisks and Russes. All of that buffed by Orders, Regimental Traits, and/or generic Character buffs.

Like I said before, it's not any one thing, it's the way it all fits together. Mortar Teams are just the most underpriced component.

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, WestRider said:

Like I said before, it's not any one thing, it's the way it all fits together. Mortar Teams are just the most underpriced component.

Then we agree. I don't think any of the components are overpowered or broken. If a good list is strong, that hardly seems like an issue of balance. Just means I need to up my game and think up a stronger list. 

As for fixes, I wouldn't be surprised if Orders are modified to require line of sight to their target for the ordering model and the target they are shooting/charging. Sounds like a GW change. Would nerf Mortars when shooting at targets that couldn't be seen. Does seem unfluffy that the officiers can boost them on orders to attack things they can't see. 

[WestRider]

1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

Then we agree. I don't think any of the components are overpowered or broken. If a good list is strong, that hardly seems like an issue of balance. Just means I need to up my game and think up a stronger list.

The Codex as a whole is very possibly Overpowered. It's just that it arises through synergy, not through any one piece being too over the top in and of itself.

[peter.cosgrove]

8 hours ago, Spaceork said:

11 points a piece post FAQ, squads of three, no los needed, d6 "bolter" shots.

So in a heavy detachment you can pump out 24d6 "bolter" shots for 250ish points with no los needed at 48".

At a 4+ BS. And they make up the gunline behind the screening forces that people are talking about in reference to the OP's original query. They are just another component of "gunline" that people are adding to the mix for the meta.

[Guest]

So, for questions of local meta, has anyone actually seen such a Guard detachment be fielded? 24 Mortar teams...

[SPaceORK]

4 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Then we agree. I don't think any of the components are overpowered or broken. If a good list is strong, that hardly seems like an issue of balance. Just means I need to up my game and think up a stronger list. 

As for fixes, I wouldn't be surprised if Orders are modified to require line of sight to their target for the ordering model and the target they are shooting/charging. Sounds like a GW change. Would nerf Mortars when shooting at targets that couldn't be seen. Does seem unfluffy that the officiers can boost them on orders to attack things they can't see. 

Mortars are just to cheap... That many shots for such a cheap price is a little ridiculous. 

220 points if mortars can pump out enough wounds to kill a 5 man squad of marines a turn or put a few wounds on a knight. While this doesn't seem like a big deal, it can constantly and consistently put wounds on things. They will easily get back double their points while the other 1780 points does their thing.

Mortars are not a huge deal but they are slightly undercosted to the point another points increase is needed.

[SPaceORK]

4 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

So, for questions of local meta, has anyone actually seen such a Guard detachment be fielded? 24 Mortar teams...

In Portland... No. But I've seen it in Southern Oregon and would imagine a town 10x as big would definitely have it.

 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Spaceork said:

In Portland... No. But I've seen it in Southern Oregon and would imagine a town 10x as big would definitely have it.

 

Sure, but there really aren't that many total 40k players. A bigger group than when I started, but we're still very much a minority of the population. And despite 33pts per team, GW wants $39.50 for a squad (3 mortars), so it's not a financially cheap addition to any guard army (which is already one of the most expensive armies to play). Even some of our richer players will probably reconsider buying 8 of these kits just to fill a 220pt section of their army. $316 makes them about twice the cost of an imperial knight. And that's the current GW ones, not scouring Ebay for OOP metal IG mortar teams.

[WestRider]

Mortars are easy enough to make with some plastic tubing. Just stick one of those on a 60mm base along with a couple of dudes from a regular Infantry Squad (or 3rd party, to save even more), and you can get those Mortar Squads way, way cheaper than doing them up straight from GW.

[SPaceORK]

1 minute ago, paxmiles said:

Sure, but there really aren't that many total 40k players. A bigger group than when I started, but we're still very much a minority of the population. And despite 33pts per team, GW wants $39.50 for a squad (3 mortars), so it's not a financially cheap addition to any guard army (which is already one of the most expensive armies to play). Even some of our richer players will probably reconsider buying 8 of these kits just to fill a 220pt section of their army. $316 makes them about twice the cost of an imperial knight. And that's the current GW ones, not scouring Ebay for OOP metal IG mortar teams.

Well when has price ever affected "that guy"? Saying price is prohibitive to tournament cheesyness probably incorrect. And also, don't mortars use a completely different model on the sprue? So if you have a bunch of heavy weapons teams, you just need bases to make the mortars.