Ish Posted January 14, 2019 Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 Sisters’ heavy reliance on bolters, meltas, and flamers (although thematic as heck) does hurt them when it comes to dealing with heavier units... I love them, but they’re still kinda stuck in Second Edition’s “infantry platoon plus maybe a tank” game design, where about the heaviest you’d see on the other side was maybe two or three Leman Russ for the Guard, 5-10 Terminators for the Marines, or a Greater Dæmon for Chaos. In a game where 2-3 superheavy tanks or lightweight Titians isn’t an uncommon add-on to an army with two or three times the manpower you could field back then, well... It just doesn’t seem to work. GW needs to give the Sisters something other than their classic loadout or they need to give them most efficient Stratagems/Acts of Faith for handling the big guys. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusldorf Posted January 14, 2019 Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 Q: Does the Book of St. Lucius increase the range of Stratagems used on the bearer, such as Vessel of the Emperor’s Will? A: No. Aura abilities are considered to be persistent abilities; Vessels of the Emperor’s Will is an instantaneous ability. Wow, I don't think anybody expected that interpretation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted January 14, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 1 minute ago, Ish said: Sisters’ heavy reliance on bolters, meltas, and flamers (although thematic as heck) does hurt them when it comes to dealing with heavier units... I love them, but they’re still kinda stuck in Second Edition’s “infantry platoon plus maybe a tank” game design, where about the heaviest you’d see on the other side was maybe two or three Leman Russ for the Guard, 5-10 Terminators for the Marines, or a Greater Dæmon for Chaos. In a game where 2-3 superheavy tanks or lightweight Titians isn’t an uncommon add-on to an army with two or three times the manpower you could field back then, well... It just doesn’t seem to work. GW needs to give the Sisters something other than their classic loadout or they need to give them most efficient Stratagems/Acts of Faith for handling the big guys. I don't disagree. Good thing we have a whole release this year with new codex then. 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted January 14, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 Just now, Dusldorf said: Q: Does the Book of St. Lucius increase the range of Stratagems used on the bearer, such as Vessel of the Emperor’s Will? A: No. Aura abilities are considered to be persistent abilities; Vessels of the Emperor’s Will is an instantaneous ability. Wow, I don't think anybody expected that interpretation. Actually, that's exactly what I expected. BoSL says auras and I didn't consider VotEW an aura. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusldorf Posted January 14, 2019 Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 I was under the impression that auras include anything measured in a radius from a model's base. But good for you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted January 14, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 8 minutes ago, Dusldorf said: I was under the impression that auras include anything measured in a radius from a model's base. But good for you. AURA ABILITIES Some units – usually CHARACTERS – have abilities that affect certain models within a given range. Unless the ability in question says otherwise, a model with a rule like this is always within range of the effect. So Auras are abilities that characters have. VotEW isn't a character ability, it is a stratagem. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted January 14, 2019 Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 3 hours ago, Dusldorf said: Q: Does the Book of St. Lucius increase the range of Stratagems used on the bearer, such as Vessel of the Emperor’s Will? A: No. Aura abilities are considered to be persistent abilities; Vessels of the Emperor’s Will is an instantaneous ability. Wow, I don't think anybody expected that interpretation. Yeah I don't understand that. but it is what it is. they should have just gone with the simplest interpretation possible on that though. an aura is an aura is an aura. DEFINITELY need to drop the cost of that Stratagem then. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted January 14, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 4 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said: Yeah I don't understand that. but it is what it is. they should have just gone with the simplest interpretation possible on that though. an aura is an aura is an aura. DEFINITELY need to drop the cost of that Stratagem then. I agree that VotEW is now over costed, but they did go with the simplest version of the aura rules. Character abilities, as written in the rulebook. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted January 14, 2019 Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 Just now, pretre said: I agree that VotEW is now over costed, but they did go with the simplest version of the aura rules. Character abilities, as written in the rulebook. An aura should just be an aura. Making extra sliver-fine distinctions in a ruleset that's 12 pages long and was an attempt to make it easier for people to learn and throw down is sort of the opposite of what we want. But i suppose that's why we just cant have nice things. Everyones looking for an angle or a "certain point of view" they can see it PLAUSIBLY another way to restrict their opponents. Le sigh. This isn't earth shattering but it just means that you have to huddle THAT much closer to the fire for warmth. I guess. I think that if it were easier to get Command Points and still have a good list, that would also help. But that forces you to play Hordey which in turn starts to dilute your tank killing power even more. And this codex neeeeeeds the tank killing power. Its best options are unreliable or really expensive. The units that DO that job are ultra Squishy. Drop the cost of the Muiti-melta? That might open some options. Drop it to 17. Could be a thing given the dearth of weapon options we have. Twin Multimeltas at 34? A few more points freed up there since thats kind of their thing, would be cool. the Multimeltas i have have sort of set on my shelf for a really long time. They only really got played when Celestians had that (for once) great ability to be relentless and could take two of them in their unit. A couple relentless Multimeltas in a bodyguard unit with maybe a Combi-melta thrown in? Pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted January 14, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 Just now, Lord Hanaur said: An aura should just be an aura. Making extra sliver-fine distinctions in a ruleset that's 12 pages long and was an attempt to make it easier for people to learn and throw down is sort of the opposite of what we want. But i suppose that's why we just cant have nice things. Everyones looking for an angle or a "certain point of view" they can see it PLAUSIBLY another way to restrict their opponents. Le sigh. No one is making a sliver fine distinction. It's says character abilities. That's a stratagem. That's not sliver fine. There's no angle. It's just reading the rules. AURA ABILITIESSome units – usually CHARACTERS – have abilities that affect certain models within a given range. Unless the ability in question says otherwise, a model with a rule like this is always within range of the effect. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted January 14, 2019 Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 1 minute ago, pretre said: No one is making a sliver fine distinction. It's says character abilities. That's a stratagem. That's not sliver fine. There's no angle. It's just reading the rules. AURA ABILITIESSome units – usually CHARACTERS – have abilities that affect certain models within a given range. Unless the ability in question says otherwise, a model with a rule like this is always within range of the effect. So. Your opinion then is that an aura shouldn't just be an aura. Also. It says "usually". Not exclusively characters. So what is the value of complicating auras again? I see no point to it. And the character becomes the source of the stratagems aura. Like I said. They'd have been wiser just to call an aura an aura and be done with it. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted January 14, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 4 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said: So. Your opinion then is that an aura shouldn't just be an aura. Also. It says "usually". Not exclusively characters. So what is the value of complicating auras again? I see no point to it. And the character becomes the source of the stratagems aura. Like I said. They'd have been wiser just to call an aura an aura and be done with it. Some units have abilities that affect certain models within a given range. Unless the ability in question says otherwise, a model with a rule like this is always within range of the effect. There. I removed the character part, since it was confusing things. No one is talking about value, except you. I'm just showing you why they faq'd the way they did. Because the rules say auras are just abilities of units (usually characters) and VotEW is not a unit ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusldorf Posted January 14, 2019 Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 Acts of Faith is an ability though, which has certain effects depending on the faith power manifested. And VotEW turns that effect into an aura. Hence, an ability aura. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted January 14, 2019 Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 1 minute ago, pretre said: Some units have abilities that affect certain models within a given range. Unless the ability in question says otherwise, a model with a rule like this is always within range of the effect. There. I removed the character part, since it was confusing things. No one is talking about value, except you. I'm just showing you why they faq'd the way they did. Because the rules say auras are just abilities of units (usually characters) and VotEW is not a unit ability. Even though its clearly an aura. Lol. But sure. Okay. What's done is done. I don't see any reason to defend a bad decision. You do. They just as easily could have said the opposite and people would be "well yeah that's so much more intuitive, better and easier to deal with, thank God GW didnt bone this one". But nah. Instead you're having a discussion the Pharisees would have loved. "Well technically..." and needlessly casting it in a light other than an aura, even though...it's an aura. GW's Opportunity to do the sane thing; averted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted January 14, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said: Even though its clearly an aura. Lol. But sure. Okay. The problem is that you are using your definition of an aura and not the rules definition. I agree that from an outside the rules perspective it is an aura. That being said, the rules define auras clearly (although apparently not clearly enough). Trying to bring outside examples and definitions into rules debates is just a recipe for frustration. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted January 14, 2019 Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 1 minute ago, pretre said: The problem is that you are using your definition of an aura and not the rules definition. I agree that from an outside the rules perspective it is an aura. That being said, the rules define auras clearly (although apparently not clearly enough). Trying to bring outside examples and definitions into rules debates is just a recipe for frustration. No its an opportunity for them to do a sane thing about it. Its their game. They can make it make sense. Dash of the pen and it's done. They just didn't. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusldorf Posted January 14, 2019 Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 1 minute ago, pretre said: The problem is that you are using your definition of an aura and not the rules definition. I agree that from an outside the rules perspective it is an aura. That being said, the rules define auras clearly (although apparently not clearly enough). Trying to bring outside examples and definitions into rules debates is just a recipe for frustration. Acts of Faith are an ability though. Which are turned into an aura by the strat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted January 14, 2019 Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 Just now, Dusldorf said: Acts of Faith are an ability though. Which are turned into an aura by the strat. agreed. Its an aura from the character. But whatevs. It's done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted January 14, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 Just now, Dusldorf said: Acts of Faith are an ability though. Which are turned into an aura by the strat. See, this is a better argument, LH. I think that's a much better way to look at it and I understand this interpretation from a rules standpoint. I disagree, but I understand how this fits into the rules for auras. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ish Posted January 14, 2019 Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 It’s not clearly an aura. Aura has a specifically defined meaning, which Pretre has copy-pasted many times now. The common use, dictionary definition, doesn’t matter when the rules give a specific use. Imagine I wrote a contract that said “a Dog is a small furry four-legged carnivorous mammal of the sub-species Felis silvestris catus.” In such cade, it wouldn’t do you any good to argue that dog usually means, well, a dog. GW’s annoying habit of writing in a “conversational” tone makes it harder to recognize when they’re using a term of art... Something I really wish they’d fix. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted January 14, 2019 Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 8 minutes ago, Ish said: It’s not clearly an aura. Aura has a specifically defined meaning, which Pretre has copy-pasted many times now. The common use, dictionary definition, doesn’t matter when the rules give a specific use. Imagine I wrote a contract that said “a Dog is a small furry four-legged carnivorous mammal of the sub-species Felis silvestris catus.” In such cade, it wouldn’t do you any good to argue that dog usually means, well, a dog. GW’s annoying habit of writing in a “conversational” tone makes it harder to recognize when they’re using a term of art... Something I really wish they’d fix. This isn't complicated. If it smells like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck... This is needless pedantry is what it is. But they could have just said "treat it like an aura and people would be fine with it. So why go this route? It's dumb. But its done. Codex save us. Like we seem to always be saying. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ish Posted January 14, 2019 Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 Because an aura is defined as a unit ability, this isn’t a unit ability, ergo it can’t be an aura. It doesn’t smell like a duck, it doesn’t walk like a duck, and it doesn’t quack like a duck. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusldorf Posted January 14, 2019 Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ish said: Because an aura is defined as a unit ability, this isn’t a unit ability, ergo it can’t be an aura. It doesn’t smell like a duck, it doesn’t walk like a duck, and it doesn’t quack like a duck. As I said, it's a unit ability that the strat turns into an aura. There's room for debate, hence the FAQ. Both sides should stop acting like their interpretation is a foregone conclusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ish Posted January 14, 2019 Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 But, a Stratagem isn’t a Unit Ability... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusldorf Posted January 14, 2019 Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 7 minutes ago, Ish said: But, a Stratagem isn’t a Unit Ability... Acts of Faith is a unit ability with various effects. The strat turns one such effect into an aura. Therefore it becomes an ability aura. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.