New Chaos Marine project

[Brother Glacius]

The new models have really been calling to me. However, unlike the normal crazy ass collecting I do, this time I want to stay focused and really get just what I need to play. Mostly I play Power Level games and try to stick to typical Match Play organization. However, never used Command Points before. But I'm willing to try and should be able to do I think even using power level point structure. 

My army is going to be based on the new Daemonkin stuff. Shadowspear ran me through when it came out as it was perfect for what I was drawn to for chaos. My good friend/crack dealer Pretre has set me up with the following:

Master of Possession
Warpsmith
10 CSM
2 Greater Possessed
2 Obliterators
2 Venom Crawlers

All in all, a really good start to what I want to go forward with. The models are all top notch as well. From there, my selection is based on personal model preference, army theme, and hitting the 100pt power level goal to keep me from going overboard.

Lord Discordant
10 more CSM
5 havocs
5 terminators
5 warp talons
10 deamonettes
*1 chaos lord OR Noctilith Crown OR 5 Possessed OR 10 Daemonettes

The final chaos lord was originally chosen because I love the new model. That being said, he's also a 4th HQ which throws things off a bit. A new Noctilith Crown will also give me the 5pts in power level, and still fit with my army theme/design. So that might be a better option?

For Battleforged, that gives me 3(4) HQ, 3-5 Core, 2(3) Elites, 1 Fast Attack, and 3 Heavy Support. (1 possible Fortification).

Play wise, I have several daemon units and vehicles to make use of the abilities for both the warp smith and the master of possession.

 

[Brother Glacius]

Whoops..so my counting sucks. That is actually 4 heavy support. (2 VCs, havocs, oblits). So I may need to rethink the havocs. I love the oblits so they are staying, and I already have the VCs, so they aren't going anywhere...So that's 7pts I need to come up with that fall into another spot...Hmmmm so the Chaos Lord (love the model, don't need a fourth HQ is 5pts. So that leaves 12pts open. So I can either ignore the slot counts and just keep going with the models I like..or find other units. I think the easiest thing to do is bulk up on CSM and Deamonettes. I can get 10 more CSM and 10 Deamonettes for 12pts. That is probably the smart thing to do as the more core I have, then more options I have for doing multiple detatchments and then if I decide to grow the army at all, then I can add back in some of those other types of units.

HQ: Warpsmith, Lord Discordant, Master of Possession
Core: 30 CSM, 20 Deamonettes
Elite: 2 Greater Possessed, 5 Terminators
Fast Attack: 5 Warp Talons
Heavy Support: 2 Venom Crawlers, 2 Obliterators
100pts Power Levels and fits into the Battalion Detachment

 

 

[VonVilkee]

Nothing here says single detachment, match play recommendation for number of detachments is 1 plus another per 1000 points. At this power level two detachments should be totally fine, especially considering you are probably keeping the same keywords.

 

I'd take your original list with the Lord. This would allow you a battalion (most of your list of units) and a spearhead (1 hq required and 3 heavies required).

[Munkie]

I don't know Chaos Marines well so I can't offer much advice there, but it looks like you're really close to a brigade (3 HQ, 3 El, 3 FA, 3 HS, 6 Troops). A brigade detachment is a good purchasing target because it maxes out every slot. You can run it as a single detachment and keep it simple but with a bucket of CP (+12). Or, if points are tight, you can split it into battalion+1 as @VonVilkee mentioned or as 2 battalions (if you get that 4th HQ).

[Brother Glacius]

I get it, so I could do the following using the original list:

Battalion Detachment:
HQ: Chaos Lord, Warpsmith, Master of Possession
Core: CSM, CSM, Deamonettes
Elite: Greater Possessed
Fast Attack: Warp Talons
Heavy Support: Havocs

Spearhead Detatchment:
HQ: Lord Discordant
Heavy Support: Obliterators, Venom Crawler, Venom Crawler

This gives me 6 CPs as well I think.

[Munkie]

That does give you 6, but every battle forged list (a list fitting within the detachment and ally system) begins with 3.

So you're total CP for battalion+1 is 9.

13 if you do double battalions.

15 if you care to fit a brigade.

[Brother Glacius]

If you start with 3, a Battalion gives you +3, and then Spearhead gives you +1...or is there more somewhere I'm missing. ( I originally thought you started at 2).

[Munkie]

8 minutes ago, necrontyr said:

FAQ changed CP generation. Battalion and Brigades give more now.

Yeah I almost included that above. I should have.

Battalions went from 3 to 5, and Brigades from 9 to 12 via FAQ.

[Brother Glacius]

Quick question, daemonettes are said to be core troops. Do they count as core in a list? Battlescribe does not let you choose them in a CSM army.

[VonVilkee]

Okay so this is where it gets a little tricky...

 

Deamonettes are troops (core) however they do not have more than the chaos keyword in common with the rest of that detachment. For match play this matters however for main rules it does not. Battle scribe was prolly coded to match play not what you can do...

Be aware this breaks any legion trait you were hoping to get and technically you don't get chaos space Marine strategems (heretic astartes) from your battalion. You can use strategems on them just fine and your spear head gives you access to the strategems. You are good just in a round about way...

[Brother Glacius]

That is ass clown stupid. So they add the units in the book, make no direct mention of them in the rules for army building, and basically screw over your force if you take them. That is asinine. They should have simply included them along with Dorkface and the Fallen. If you have them, they don't benefit, but they don't ruin your army either. Ugh. So maybe I need more CSM now since the deamonettes will only be there for summoning purposes.

[Brother Glacius]

Hmmmm okay, so chaos seems to have lots of ways to add models to the battlefield. For example, I can use a psychic power, kill an enemy character, and a spawn appears. Does that mean I need to pay for the spawn ahead of time in my army list? I read through the CSM FAQ and I didn't see good examples. So lets go forward with my plan of playing 100pt PL games. I'll need to field say 90pts on the table, and say I'm reserving 10pts in reserve. Then if I want to summon a unit, or if I create one through other means, I subtract that cost from those 10pts and once they are used up, I can't summon/create anymore. Is that about right?

[VonVilkee]

32 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said:

Hmmmm okay, so chaos seems to have lots of ways to add models to the battlefield. For example, I can use a psychic power, kill an enemy character, and a spawn appears. Does that mean I need to pay for the spawn ahead of time in my army list? I read through the CSM FAQ and I didn't see good examples. So lets go forward with my plan of playing 100pt PL games. I'll need to field say 90pts on the table, and say I'm reserving 10pts in reserve. Then if I want to summon a unit, or if I create one through other means, I subtract that cost from those 10pts and once they are used up, I can't summon/create anymore. Is that about right?

I always assumed summoning deamons was the reason for the inclusion. If you wanted a more permanent addition taking a patrol or minimum battalion is an option. Summoned stuff is not added into any detachment so won't break things. I've seen other people who when mixing detachments just fill it with stuff that doesn't get the legion trait any way. Remember those units still have the relevant keyword they just don't get the perks. Alliances have levels and depending on how similar they are impacts your access to more specialized rules. Remember those command points can always be used on rerolls, combat interruption, auto pass morale and mission specific things.

"Reserve points" is what I assume you are looking at now, and they only matter again in match play with points not in power level. In power level go wild doesn't matter, it is all rounded and stuff any way. 

 

A big part of the complication of 40k now is there are really 3 versions and most people play match or at least plan to play match and it gets really persnickety due to the ” need” to optimize.

[VonVilkee]

2 minutes ago, necrontyr said:

For the Daemonettes, I'm pretty sure you can still summon then in without messing up your traits, or just grab one Herald and run a Patrol detachment if you really want them in.

Correct summoning does not add them to a detachment just the table.

[Brother Glacius]

But what about spawn or Daemon Prince creating via psychic powers? Do I need to reserve points for those? Also, what is typical for assigning psychic powers in matched play? is it a random roll, or do people typically pick their power?

[WestRider]

2 hours ago, Brother Glacius said:

But what about spawn or Daemon Prince creating via psychic powers? Do I need to reserve points for those? Also, what is typical for assigning psychic powers in matched play? is it a random roll, or do people typically pick their power?

Those need Reinforcement Points if using Matched Play Rules, yeah. Anything that creates a new Unit, or takes an existing Unit over its starting strength, needs Reinforcement Points unless it explicitly says that it doesn't.

Everyone I've seen picks Warlord Traits, Psychic Powers, etc. Random rolling is an option if you want to do it for whatever reason, but I've never seen it required in 8th.

[Brother Glacius]

that does make planning a bit hard. Some of those unit creates are really specific conditions that may or may not have a real chance of happening...so to reserve points for something that may not happen seems lame.

[VonVilkee]

I've never wanted to use command points to roll on a random boon chart. My characters have a plan if I wanted a deamon Prince I would have taken one in matched play where it matters. In basic power level maybe I'd try the roll but there I don't need reinforcement points.

For the psychic power that one you can plan the spawn a bit better but I'd prolly just take a different power; buff powers are better. The need for reinforcement points is really just allowing for summoning in matched play but also discouraging it as it is a little too random. You want your 40k random and a bit more whacky? Get playing power level where you belong! <Tongue in cheek> you filthy casual 😝

[Brother Glacius]

I'm all about power level baby! Long live easy math!

[VonVilkee]

So take what is said about points with a boulder of salt you just don't care!

 

I totally love playing power level so much easier and totally works with my garage buddies. Do I want match points when I'm at the store? Yeah there are a few store players I want a tighter leash on...

[Brother Glacius]

Ugh, okay, so I tried to do some test painting this weekend. Not great. The Apothecary white looked like grey milk. It did not work well going over the light green primer. (I bought the models like that). The Turquoise looked much better, but again, not great. I ended up double coating the white trying to make it look white and all it did was turn it into a solid grey. I then tried to dip to make it pop and ugh..that model is so heading for the krudd kutter. 

I then did another test model but this time using a grey contrast and it was much better...but still, the light green primer just isn't making the colors pop. It is simply too dark.

So now I need to reprime my models white. The risk is, do I do it over the green, or do I strip and reprime?   I've decided I really like this color scheme:

I think that just pops and looks so cool for chaos. Also, I really don't own a white army, so its a new scheme for me completely. So my next test is going to be a white primed model, then I will try the apothecary white on it again. I'll do the gold, and then probably hand paint the dip around the gold to dirty it up. We'll see if it works. I think I'm also going to replace the red with a purple to make it more slannesh.

If anyone knows of any other tips to get this kind of effect, I'm all ears.

[Guest]

Tough to give exact advice without pictures.

Most bright colors, like white, require lots of layers. 

White also runs into issues if your brushes or water pot aren't perfectly clean. Might need a dedicated brush and water pot.

I've also found that some white paints seem designed by the manufacturer to require more layers than others. For Vajello, I use Cold White, which used to be called Foundation White, and is designed for use without excessive layering.

[Sugarlessllama]

White is actually pretty easy. Just follow the advice of Sir Duncan and you should be fine. I actually paint bright white over a black or blue primer using the techniques from the Warhammer TV video on white and it comes out really sharp. 

 

[InfestedKerrigan]

Looks like a job for Contrast Paints!

 

Seriously, though.  some of the browns would look good with this, and then white over it, blended to taste/skill

[Brother Glacius]

The original hope was to do these guys relatively quickly. The original gameplan of using white contrast over the green primer did not pan out. It looks like if I do a white primer, then white contrast, I can get the definition I want as a base. Then I go and do the trim in gold/bronze/silver (as the mood takes me) and then I was thinking of painting quickshade over the metallic trim. This would bleed over into the white and hopefully create that dirty/brownish pooling in the recesses.

What my next step is, how do I go from light green primed models, to white primed models? Options:

a) spray white primer over green
b) airbrush white over green
c) paint/drybrush white over green - this actually appeals quite a bit as I imagine that green bleeding through in the recesses, but it also is the most work of all options
d) strip models of green, then prime with white

In terms of contrast paints, I have the turquoise, white, grey, and shyish purple. So I'm thinking I might do a single shoulder pad in the turquoise, and use the purple on any cloth/leather.  Weapons will be gunmetal with shading. Tubings will be done with the grey to stand out from the white.