Warhammer 40K: 5th Edition Redux

[Ish]

3 hours ago, Andrewgeddon said:

-Entire force in reserve until turn 2
That per the rules, not per Blood Angels, yeah? But BA can capitalize on it more with DoA. Probably would have to revisit this.

Speaking as a 5th Edition era Dark Angels player, let me chime in on behalf of my former “roommates” from our Codex: Angels of Death days: “Null deployment” was a key part of both Blood Angels and Dark Angels (Deathwing) strategy under the codices of this era of the game.

Blood Angels Assault Squads and Death Company Squads lacked the durability to withstand two turns of enemy shooting while closing into mêlée and lacked the range necessary to effectively shoot back (being armed only with pistols for the most part and often lacking ranged weapons at all).

Deathwing Terminator Squads had durability, but hadn’t the speed to get into range quickly. Yes, storm bolters had 24” range, but you’d only have 3-4 in a squad... and with only five men in a squad they lacked the ability to take much attrition.

A lot of players thought that using Descent of Angels / Deathwing Assault combined with “null deployment” was unfair... Until they realized it meant they had two turns of uncontested freedom to maneuver, get into defensive positions, secure Objectives, and set up kill zones.

(Air-dropping Land Raiders is a bit silly though.)

[Munkie]

9 hours ago, Ish said:

Blood Angels Assault Squads and Death Company Squads lacked the durability to withstand two turns of enemy shooting while closing into mêlée and lacked the range necessary to effectively shoot back (being armed only with pistols for the most part and often lacking ranged weapons at all).

While those squads couldn't shoot back effectively, it would be a gross mischaracterization to say that Blood Angels couldn't shoot well.

Aside from not having a thunder fire cannon, they were better at shooting than other space marines.

If someone went all in on a null deployment strategy, they opted to not have a firebase. For that reason, I agree, null deployment itself doesn't need to change. It isn't the most powerful way to play the army.

The thing that makes that book tricky is there just aren't any weaknesses. Blood Angels were better at everything than vanilla marines. Better shooting, better combat, better psychers (aside from the one special charater), and a lot of force multiplying synergies.

 

[Andrewgeddon]

11 minutes ago, Munkie said:

The thing that makes that book tricky is there just aren't any weaknesses. Blood Angels were better at everything than vanilla marines. Better shooting, better combat, better psychers (aside from the one special charater), and a lot of force multiplying synergies.

One thing to note for this project is besides adjusting books that are overpowered, I also plan to give buffs to regular Space Marines, in the form of Chapter Tactics.

Always happy to have suggestions though! My goal is the keep the core rules changes relatively small while being more heavy handed with the codicies. 

[Munkie]

Blasphemy! 

The 5th ed space marine book is probably my favorite they've ever written. Tons and tons of options, but none of them are overpowered. A friend and I tried to break that book, but it just can't be done.

[Ish]

Was it the Fourth Edition or the Fifth Edition Codex: Space Marines that had the “build your own” Chapter Tactics system?

I really miss that element in the current books. Yes, it had a few combinations that were a bit much, but it led to so much creativity amongst a lot of my local gaming group from people who often never put much thought into personalizing their armies...

[Munkie]

5 minutes ago, Ish said:

Was it the Fourth Edition or the Fifth Edition Codex: Space Marines that had the “build your own” Chapter Tactics system?

I really miss that element in the current books. Yes, it had a few combinations that were a bit much, but it led to so much creativity amongst a lot of my local gaming group from people who often never put much thought into personalizing their armies...

That was 4th ed. The 5th ed one had special characters that dictated the chapter traits. That was the major downside to the 5th ed book. Very special character reliant.

[Andrewgeddon]

2 hours ago, Munkie said:

The 5th ed one had special characters that dictated the chapter traits. That was the major downside to the 5th ed book. Very special character reliant.

I envision something like I outline on the CSM book (still a work in progress), where army slot reorganization (i.e. "bikers as troops") is done through  chapter tactics rather than by taking a character. Same thing would be done for Chapter Traits: Taking White Scars would give you the ability to outflank ala Kor'Sarro Khan, without having to take him, but he himself would still confer the ability to give his unit Furious Charge and Hit and Run.

Probably the only chapter that would need a tactic from the ground up would be Iron Hands, and it makes sense (to me at least) that they would get the "Dreadnoughts as HS slots" trait instead of the Master of the Forge giving it, along with maybe something else I would need to think of.

[Ish]

29 minutes ago, Andrewgeddon said:

Probably the only chapter that would need a tactic from the ground up would be Iron Hands, and it makes sense (to me at least) that they would get the "Dreadnoughts as HS slots" trait instead of the Master of the Forge giving it, along with maybe something else I would need to think of.

Bionics (a.k.a. Feel No Pain 6+) as an item of wargear that Sergeants and other characters could select?

[Navster]

 I would be well up for trying this out on universal battle or table top simulator if anyone wants a game I loved 5th edition I think it would have been amazing having fifth ed with the current card system for missions. Message me if you want a game online .

[Navster]

I would love to play fifth edition again with a decent Comp would anyone be up for playing online using table top simulator or universal battle ?

[WestRider]

7 hours ago, Ish said:

Was it the Fourth Edition or the Fifth Edition Codex: Space Marines that had the “build your own” Chapter Tactics system?

I really miss that element in the current books. Yes, it had a few combinations that were a bit much, but it led to so much creativity amongst a lot of my local gaming group from people who often never put much thought into personalizing their armies...

While I do think that 5th had the cleanest core rules set, the "3.5" to 4th ed era had my favourite design philosophy for Codices. The Build-a-Bear IG, CSM, and Nid Dexes were masterpieces that just needed some tweaks, not getting reworked from the ground up like they did.

[Ish]

Personally, I’ve always kind of wished they’d dump the individual codices for the 24,601 different Chapters of Space Marine and move all of them into a single unified book with the “build-a-bear” approach.

Maybe one or two unique characters and/or units for each of the Big Name Official GW Chapters. 

 

[Navster]

5th edition was the best tournament 40k version in my opinion although I do like the new mission objective cards.

would be happy to play fifth using this comp against anyone online if they want to play on either universal battle or table top simulator.

 

nav

[WestRider]

15 hours ago, Ish said:

Personally, I’ve always kind of wished they’d dump the individual codices for the 24,601 different Chapters of Space Marine and move all of them into a single unified book with the “build-a-bear” approach.

Maybe one or two unique characters and/or units for each of the Big Name Official GW Chapters. 

 

I've felt much the same. If Black Templars could be folded into the core Dex, BA and DA shouldn't be a problem, and even SW should be manageable.

[Ish]

Not to mention that they squeeze every Craftworld, every Ork Clan, every Imperial Guard Regiment, every Tau Sept, every Hive-Fleet, and (until very recently) every single Traitor Legion, Renegade Chapter, and Heretic Warband into one codex per faction.

I see little to no reason that Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templars, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Space Wolfs, and all the others cannot be handled with a half page of rules text. 

[Navster]

How would you update the under powered codexes :-

Tau- Eldar-DA towards the end of fifth where dropping to lower teir armies when the Necrons Grey Knights etc where just far beyond those. Would  Adeptus Mechanicus be adapted for fifth?.  Daemons and Chaos where also not very spicey at the end but I can remember the 6th edition Chaos marine codex coming out during fifth but not sure?. 

[WestRider]

42 minutes ago, Navster said:

How would you update the under powered codexes :-

Tau- Eldar-DA towards the end of fifth where dropping to lower teir armies when the Necrons Grey Knights etc where just far beyound those. Would  Adeptus Mechanicus be adapted for fifth?.  Daemons and Chaos where also not very spicey at the end but I can remember the 6th eidtion Chaos marine codex coming out during fifth but not sure?. 

Nids were also in a pretty bad place by the end of the edition. Honestly, in many ways, their 5th ed Dex actually made things worse.

[Andrewgeddon]

49 minutes ago, Navster said:

How would you update the under powered codexes :-

Tau- Eldar-DA towards the end of fifth where dropping to lower teir armies when the Necrons Grey Knights etc where just far beyound those. Would  Adeptus Mechanicus be adapted for fifth?.  Daemons and Chaos where also not very spicey at the end but I can remember the 6th eidtion Chaos marine codex coming out during fifth but not sure?. 

All good questions. You can take a look at my link on the other page for what I've thought of for Daemons and CSMs, although CSMs are not finished, but will basically entail points drops for Noise Marine (free sonic weapons) and 1k Sons (Sorcerer goes way down) to make them more viable. No idea if these changes would be enough, but I think it's a start, and I think if nothing else the rules are a lot more fun.

Grey Knights and Necrons would be nerfed accordingly. I have never played with or against Tau / Eldar / DA in 5th, so I'm not sure offhand how to bump up their power level.

Adding in the newer units and codicies would be awesome and a long-term goal, but who knows when or if that will ever happen? Currently I work on this "when the mood strikes me" since it's pretty much a project just for me, as other aren't really interested (except for you @Navster). Which is totally fine, I'm not complaining or being passive-aggressive, just being realistic; I totally get people want to gear up for 9th; I'm right there with them too!

[Navster]

24 minutes ago, Andrewgeddon said:

All good questions. You can take a look at my link on the other page for what I've thought of for Daemons and CSMs, although CSMs are not finished, but will basically entail points drops for Noise Marine (free sonic weapons) and 1k Sons (Sorcerer goes way down) to make them more viable. No idea if these changes would be enough, but I think it's a start, and I think if nothing else the rules are a lot more fun.

Grey Knights and Necrons would be nerfed accordingly. I have never played with or against Tau / Eldar / DA in 5th, so I'm not sure offhand how to bump up their power level.

Adding in the newer units and codicies would be awesome and a long-term goal, but who knows when or if that will ever happen? Currently I work on this "when the mood strikes me" since it's pretty much a project just for me, as other aren't really interested (except for you @Navster). Which is totally fine, I'm not complaining or being passive-aggressive, just being realistic; I totally get people want to gear up for 9th; I'm right there with them too!

No worries Your not coming across  like that I’m British my feelings can’t be hurt lol. Maybe it’s just me looking back with rose tinted glasses just seems like 40k was a lot more balanced back then but I do I like eight and hopefully ninth will be improve on that but I will always love fifth .

Would be interesting to have online 5th edition redux rulebook like the ninth age community for fantasy . 
 

The armies I do remember being very unique and cool where Dark angels deathwing since fifth they haven’t been remotely competitive since then maybe that’s why I want to play fifth again to use them lol . Also fifth was written by alonso and he was a veteran at writing a tournament game I think he’s worked on kow and another eco of game with rick priestly.

[Andrewgeddon]

12 minutes ago, Navster said:

No worries Your not coming across  like that I’m British my feelings can’t be hurt lol. Maybe it’s just me looking back with rose tinted glasses just seems like 40k was a lot more balanced back then but I do I like eight and hopefully ninth will be improve on that but I will always love fifth .

Would be interesting to have online 5th edition redux rulebook like the ninth age community for fantasy . 
 

The armies I do remember being very unique and cool where Dark angels deathwing since fifth they haven’t been remotely competitive since then maybe that’s why I want to play fifth again to use them lol . Also fifth was written by alonso and he was a veteran at writing a tournament game I think he’s worked on kow and another eco of game with rick priestly.

9th seems to be fixing a lot of issues I had with 8th, but 5th was the first edition I played (well, I played ONE game of 4th), so I'll always look fondly at it!

I like the idea of an online rulebook (especially because I'm a 9th Age player), but I'm not sure what the legalities of that would be, posting a revised copy of the old rulebook. Plus I'm 100% not the guy who can put that together, as I'm absolutely no good with anything more complicated that Word and MSPaint, lol. That's mainly the reason I just did the redux as "addendums." 

[VonVilkee]

2 hours ago, Andrewgeddon said:

9th seems to be fixing a lot of issues I had with 8th, but 5th was the first edition I played (well, I played ONE game of 4th), so I'll always look fondly at it!

I like the idea of an online rulebook (especially because I'm a 9th Age player), but I'm not sure what the legalities of that would be, posting a revised copy of the old rulebook. Plus I'm 100% not the guy who can put that together, as I'm absolutely no good with anything more complicated that Word and MSPaint, lol. That's mainly the reason I just did the redux as "addendums." 

I played a single game of second... I do not look fondly at it...

[Ish]

I seem to be in the distinct minority of players who holds to WH40k Third Edition without the revised "3.5" close combat rules as my personal favorite edition.

I really like the current Eighth Edition's core rule set, but feel it broke down under the weight of too many supplements and too many subsystems (detachments, stratagems, command points, codices, codex supplements, campaign books, yadda yadda yadda). WH40k Third Edition had a nice clean and streamlined core rule set, only had one codex per faction, and only had two supplemental add-ons... which were dirt cheap and only contained about one page of altered rules for each of the four or five factions in them.

[WestRider]

1 hour ago, Ish said:

I seem to be in the distinct minority of players who holds to WH40k Third Edition without the revised "3.5" close combat rules as my personal favorite edition.

I really like the current Eighth Edition's core rule set, but feel it broke down under the weight of too many supplements and too many subsystems (detachments, stratagems, command points, codices, codex supplements, campaign books, yadda yadda yadda). WH40k Third Edition had a nice clean and streamlined core rule set, only had one codex per faction, and only had two supplemental add-ons... which were dirt cheap and only contained about one page of altered rules for each of the four or five factions in them.

2nd Ed was actually pretty great straight out of the box, too. That seems to be the general pattern with GW.

[Navster]

2nd edition was the game I watched my uncle play while he was at uni I was about 8/9 I remember it being a very small sized game looking back at the rule book it was definitely  not for kids the rules where not clear and weapon loadout options where insane psycho Grenada’s , chemical weapons that could kill you if you didn’t where a helmet etc . Third was a good game but the army books where dull small pamphlets with few special abilities. When I started getting into the game it was with iron warriors in 4th using that 3.5 codex now that had loads of flavour that edition was ok but didn’t have a massive scene until 5th ed 40k and 8th Ed fantasy came out all of a sudden people started playing in mass tournaments so the game must have had some appeal.

 

Anyway if anyone does want to play online hit me up cheers nav.

[Andrewgeddon]

Have "finished" the Chaos Space Marine codex, at least for now. Three things I am still considering:

-Add marks to Chaos Spawn?
-Add variants to Land Raiders, consistent with Space Marines?
-Give drop pod access?

A few notes on my changes:
-Removed random table for Possessed powers, you now get the choose one.
-Tried to make Chaos Spawn suck less.
-Added Traitor Legion traits.
-Change Warptime to make it consistent with how EVERYONE played it pre-FAQ (FAQ made it useless). Might warrant a point increase?
-Changed Daemon Weapon so that a 1 doesn't make you lose attacks.
-Changed Chaos Dreadnought to be closer in line with loyalist one. Base model is 15 points cheaper than loyalist one, with one more attack and options for a 2nd DCCW, but still suffers from a toned-down "Crazed" chart (removed "Fire Frenzy" result) and does not have option for a drop pod.
-Noise Marines sonic weapons prices reduced, Blasters are free, Blastmaster down to 20 points (from 40).
-Thousand Sons Aspriing Sorcerer price reduced from 60 down to 40.
-Obliterator Cult is now a 0-1 option, except for Iron Warriors, to encourage other options and to make Iron Warriors cool.

You can check it out here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ybQ2C7QhSsxNLoSEBS0hZNWjcdtf4sK1T-vWhwM_M-s/edit?usp=sharing

Long term goals would be to circle back and eventually add in the newer models to the army (Daemon Engines mostly).

Appreciate any feedback!

 

EDIT!:
Forgot to add to the addendum that cult troops move from "Troops" slot to "Elite" slot, unless you take the corresponding Legion. Will add on my lunch break.