dalmer Posted July 27, 2023 Report Share Posted July 27, 2023 no fancy articles or anything, just wanted to vent. i'm puzzled from a business sense to see if (a) having folks needing to buy the new models to even play will outweigh (b) folks with a ton of non-supported figures/units/armies not wanting to take the leap and get those new models my pile o' retirement was slowly building since i stopped playing... had 20 months to go. just sad and thought i'd post 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ish Posted July 27, 2023 Report Share Posted July 27, 2023 It boggles my mind that GW isn’t doing the obvious move of releasing a Tactical Squad with Intercessor-sized models… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted July 27, 2023 Report Share Posted July 27, 2023 Well the marine line has been super bloated for a long ass time already. I mean seriously....even before Primaris crap, they had too much stuff. And I think GW has proven that meta drives sales. So why would people want to keep buying first-born? And how often can you re-imagine a model/unit without major changes? Take a look at the new "terminators" there really isn't anything special about them except that their scale has changed. Upscaling to Primaris gave them the bandwidth they needed to make significant changes to the newer units. How many people are using the original beakies in their marine armies? It really isn't much different from that. Sucks for us that have lots of first-born though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ish Posted July 27, 2023 Report Share Posted July 27, 2023 I’d have preferred they had redesigned the models to have the larger scale and new aesthetics, but kept the classic lineup of units. So no Intercessors/Interceptors/Inceptors/Inwhatevers and just given us a new range of models. It would have kept the rules less bloated, would have gotten a lot of long term fans to buy new models, attracted the same amount of new customers, and so forth. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted July 27, 2023 Report Share Posted July 27, 2023 Not so sure. I will say, all this talk made me look up the 2nd ed codex so I could look at a simpler time in 40K. I think I have that stuff in storage somewhere. I might have to get the rules a look-see again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ish Posted July 27, 2023 Report Share Posted July 27, 2023 My favorite edition, in terms of fluff writing, is Second Edition; My favorite, in terms of base game rule mechanics, is Third Edition; and my favorite in terms of codices is probably a tie between 2nd, 3rd, and 4th (depending on faction). I think the game hit the best level of balance between detail and abstraction with third edition. Second didn’t quite move far enough away from its small unit narrative skirmish roots in Rogue Trader, Fourth Edition and later just kept dialing up the size of the armies without any restraint. Third Edition hits that “a platoon or two of grunts with some limited support from special stuff” just perfectly. YMMV. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted July 27, 2023 Report Share Posted July 27, 2023 Some crazy stuff in 2nd ed with the various wargear cards and whatnot...but still seems like fun. 3rd is where 40k exploded for me. I loved what they did with orks and really sucked me into the game then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottshoemaker Posted July 27, 2023 Report Share Posted July 27, 2023 My favorite edition of 40k is One Page Rules. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgosaurusrex Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 16 hours ago, scottshoemaker said: My favorite edition of 40k is One Page Rules. Really? I tried OPR several times and thought it was very boring and bland. Too many units were too similar, even between factions. It's definitely easier to play and learn than any edition of 40k though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ish Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 I don’t necessarily thing similarity between units is a bad thing in a game. I mean, look at Bolt Action or Saga… An American/British/French/German/Romanian/Chindit dude with a rifle isn’t really any different than a Canadian/Italian/Russian/Japanese dude with a rifle. A Frank with a spear ain’t any different than a Moor with a spear. Mind you, I’ve not yet played OPR, so this is purely armchair speculation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 its kind of like going from rocky road ice cream to vanilla. Still good, but you feel like your are missing out on a lot. I looked over OPR several times. I think the most confusing thing was trying to line up which 40k units are which OPR units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrewgeddon Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 24 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said: its kind of like going from rocky road ice cream to vanilla. Still good, but you feel like your are missing out on a lot. I looked over OPR several times. I think the most confusing thing was trying to line up which 40k units are which OPR units. This might clear some of it up:https://wiki.onepagerules.com/index.php/Category:Grimdark_Future_Miniatures I'm still very eager to try out OPR, just have been having a hard time finding some time to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ish Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 One of the things I like about OPR is that you don’t necessarily need to use WH40k figures. There’s a lot of really cool minis out there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrewgeddon Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 1 hour ago, Ish said: One of the things I like about OPR is that you don’t necessarily need to use WH40k figures. There’s a lot of really cool minis out there. Agreed. I have an all GW "Alien Hives" army, but I also really like the idea of using Mantic's Forge Father line for a Dwarf Guilds army, since I personally like them much better than the League of Votan models. And that's not getting into all the options available out there to print. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ish Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 I’m always fighting the urge to buy a bunch of Gunpla and use them as a OPR Titan Lords army. Either that maybe print some 1:100 scale BattleMechs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalmer Posted July 29, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2023 for further meandering of thought... there's the gaming/competitive side wherein bloat/new rules/new models/etc. but let's just oversimplify and say "firstborn can't play." How will they explain that from a lore perspective? Unless this is some GW trickery where the "new" heresy is firstborn v. primaris. but from a hobbying standpoint, let's say you've been out of the game for a long time and don't have a FLGS to play. Or maybe you do. To get back in you can't use allllllll the stuff you've collected since the 90s? Hrmmm. again, kind of just rambling after the equivalent of a head spank/concussion. still bummed. i understand game mechanics change, I do. That's why we get new editions and rulesets/etc. But to just wipe out, let's say for example devastators or assault marines w/jump packs because they're firstborn. dunno. hugs to all 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ish Posted July 29, 2023 Report Share Posted July 29, 2023 GW has kinda shot themselves in the foot here, as they don’t want to have rules in their game for anything they don’t produce a model for… and yet they have forty-ish years of a game with a deep pile of lore about a militant empire that hasn’t changed its military structure in over ten millennia and regards innovation and unorthodoxy as mortal sins. I kinda see how that’s a tough spot to be in. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottshoemaker Posted July 29, 2023 Report Share Posted July 29, 2023 Carnac says: There will be primaris versions of the discontinued models 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ish Posted July 29, 2023 Report Share Posted July 29, 2023 22 minutes ago, scottshoemaker said: Carnac says: There will be primaris versions of the discontinued models I really hope so. I’ve seen a couple different people who put Mk. VII helmets and classic boltguns on Intercessor bodies. Looks great. I’m strongly tempted to try it myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalmer Posted July 30, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2023 ... and some of you that have played the various editions enlighten me if I'm incorrect... but haven't there always been "lame" units and such that were good, then got nerfed, then whatever... and I get that. Those insect things from Tau armies come to mind. But I guess my point is that they were OPTIONS and could be played. Because they had rules. Sure, maybe no one took them but if the one person wanted to do it, so be it. They could. And if Carnac's prognostication comes true and everything gets primaris-ized, then they literally are right back where they started kind of. Folks will proxy firstborn for Primaris that are versions of what was discontinued, save tournament play. So don't think GW can really make the "same" models. In the newest Dawn of Fire novel the author kind of hints at the "dwindling amounts" of first born. But then you also have all the Fallen coming together via the Lion, etc. so it's just kinda puzzling to me. Agree with Ish's point about tough spot to be in. And I get the bloat comments, I do. But that was also kind of the situation for older versions when you factored in the Forge World stuff as well, wasn't it? I've yet to see a Fire Raptor listed in any 40k rulesets save the Forge World stuff, etc. So just kind of wondering if GW is also going through changes internally wherein they feel they need to "reset" or something. I was initially drawn in due to the lore. I gamed and then went competitively, then life so the long break. But continued with the lore. And the purchases. And sometimes a dalliance here or there with painting ha ha. But I don't know how psyched I can get to dump a large amount of money on the "new" stuff and hope that the cycle doesn't continue in the near future. Appreciate folks not bashing me for just meandering with my thoughts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesIdle Posted July 30, 2023 Report Share Posted July 30, 2023 On 7/27/2023 at 7:59 AM, Ish said: It boggles my mind that GW isn’t doing the obvious move of releasing a Tactical Squad with Intercessor-sized models… Not to necro-post here or anything, but the main piece here is a balancing perspective. It's a PITA to balance a unit when they've got a million different wargear options. It's why we've seen such a big push for mono-purpose units recently. It's much easier to balance the Anti-Tank unit if it's too strong, than to change the cost of a unit because a couple wargear choices are too powerful. I understand that this is mainly a 10th edition issue now that all wargear is free, but it was a bit of a problem in 8th/9th as well since many units with multiple choices in wargear realistically only had one good option. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted July 31, 2023 Report Share Posted July 31, 2023 Here's something to consider.... once all of the first born marines are gone, does that mean all of the first born chaos marines will eventually be replaced as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalmer Posted August 1, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2023 11 hours ago, Brother Glacius said: Here's something to consider.... once all of the first born marines are gone, does that mean all of the first born chaos marines will eventually be replaced as well? Yeah, right? Hard to have veterans of "The Long War" if you eradicate them. And I'm just talking lore right now, not game mechanics. From game mechanics, if CHAOS marine firstborn survived, again... the "bloat" argument is more "look at the buffet table of choices for players." Because then the "hard to get folks to buy new models" also kinda goes out the window because other armies aren't (for lack of a better term) forced to upgrade their minis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalmer Posted August 5, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2023 So what they COULD have done: Alllllll them codices for allllll them factions. Which last I checked (and yes, haven't played in a bit so sorry if this ain't the case) included grey knights, adeptus custodes, the "big four," etc. as separate codices... Why not make a firstborn codex? Completely separate, and has listings for "the big four" or whatnot. And it's a playable faction. If team-ups are still a thing, then there ya go. And Primaris have their own codex. /shrug 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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