fluger Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 I think we just got two great examples of things that work how you think the court works and can see the inherent difference in how they are written compared to the Court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 You can include one Death Company Dreadnought for every 5 Death Company models in your army. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Wait, I don't see the difference between Lone Wolfs and Command Squads. If you're saying that Lone Wolfs don't require TR or WG, then Command Squads don't require an HQ to take. The Command Squad says "You can take one Command Squad for each..." The Court says "For each Archon in a detachment... you may include a Court that does not take up a Force Organization Slot." The wordings are similar, but different in some notable ways. More importantly, the Command Squad (et al) are not listed as standard choices in their codex- they are in the special, greyed-out text box, whereas the Court does not appear to have any special designation. None of these things are absolutely conclusive, of course, but being that there's essentially no evidence on the other side apart from "it didn't used to be that way," I think the indications are relatively clear. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Oh wait, I misremembered lone wolves and muddied the water. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 I know it's not really a valid point, no more so than anyone else's, ultimately, but..... I don't believe it's in the same vein as Transports (ie being able to take without being a dedicated ride). Without having read the direct quotation, assuming what it says from Flugers post: For each Archon included in a Detachment, the Detachment can include a Court of the Archon that does not take up a Force Organization slot. You may take one Command Squad for each Captain, Librarian or Chaplain in your army. This selection does not use up a Force Organisation slot. I am of the opinion that they were trying to streamline the verbiage into a single sentence. The comment about the color is irrelevant as Lone Wolfs are not "Special Colored" yet have the same text as the Command Squad. Death Company Dreads aren't colored differently, either. IF CoA can be taken without being unlocked by an Archon, then I'm of the opinion the same holds true to the rest. I do not believe it holds true of the rest, therefore I do not believe it holds true of the Court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Belief falls under RAI, however. Whatever they intended, what they wrote is what is under debate (and in my opinion quite clear). I think that it was probably unintended and don't agree with it, but the RAw is clear that my opinion is irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Isn't it an off topic discussion about how each of us believe the RAW is supposed to be interpreted? Don't we have to share a common belief of what the RAW means in order to have a game? I believe what they wrote (RAW) is no different than any of the other examples I cited. I also believe that the changes to "Dedicated Transports" adds RAI support to the need of the Archon to bring it's Court into play outside of Unbound and Apoc army lists. I also believe that trying to weasel and cheese dick the Court into being able to be taken without meeting it's perquisites is no different than arguing that the standard infantry base is 25mm, not 1" and therefore you can't charge my Oblit with his meat shield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted October 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Well the Court of the Archon is going to perform well for me. It is beefier, more survivable AND does more shooting damage reliably than it ever has. Mark my words: there will be many more courts in evidence before its all said and done. And I am totally using Fantasy Ghouls as my Ur-Ghul. Goooood times. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Isn't it an off topic discussion about how each of us believe the RAW is supposed to be interpreted? Don't we have to share a common belief of what the RAW means in order to have a game? I believe what they wrote (RAW) is no different than any of the other examples I cited. I also believe that the changes to "Dedicated Transports" adds RAI support to the need of the Archon to bring it's Court into play outside of Unbound and Apoc army lists. I also believe that trying to weasel and cheese dick the Court into being able to be taken without meeting it's perquisites is no different than arguing that the standard infantry base is 25mm, not 1" and therefore you can't charge my Oblit with his meat shield. That's a lot of inflammatory language there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Every time a codex has came out in the 18 years I've been involved in the hobby, people try to convolute a rule into making something happen that isn't there. If it's inflammatory to compare examples of such, color me guilty. I don't believe any one involved in this conversation is going to show up at a tourney with a CAD utilizing a lone member or combination of members of a Court as their HQ. I do believe that this has been a mental exercise discussing the feasibility and legality of doing such. I don't believe that we as a community on here have that many WAAC players. I do believe someone who intends to misconstrue a rule for personal gain within the context of the game is a cheese dick. I don't believe any one individual in this conversation has that intent. There's two sides here that both believe RAW supports their interpretation. Both sides believe it is perfectly clear as it is written. "I believe in g-d, because look around us." "I don't believe in your god, because look around us." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 "All those other guys who interpret raw different than me are jerks, but not you guys."? ;) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 How can someone misconstrue something if they honesty believe it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 I don't believe that we as a community on here have that many WAAC players Well, since WAAC is largely just a derogatory term for any person someone doesn't like that beat them in the game (or that took a list they didn't like, or that believes in a rules interpretation they don't like, etc), I feel like this is a pretty silly thing to say. It's like "hipster"- essentially just a catch-all insult for a nebulous group of folks that everyone is expected to hate. By any kind of reasonable definition, fluger, myself, pretre, and tons of other players here on Ordo are fairly hardcore competitive players; hell, we've got several of the best players in the USA here on the forums but that doesn't make them jerks; rather, they're some of the nicest guys I know. WAAC is just an absurd myth used to justify the demonization of a particular way to play the game- a**holes come in all types, whether competitive, fluffy, hobbyists, etc. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Well, I*used* to be. No time to play at that level. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frowbakk Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 No Fluger, you were more of a "Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women" player. But WAAC is easier to remember than CYESTDBYAHTLOTW 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 It *is* what's best in life though. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psilence Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 I'm picturing fluger sitting on his dinner table with no shirt on and wearing a little furry crown. :p Q bad ass drum music. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted October 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Updated again. 240pts Court of the Archon (6 Sslyth, 3 Medusae, 1 Ur-Ghul) 75pts Raider (Night Shield, Enhanced Aethersails) The Ur-Ghul gives this hard hitting unit Fear. The unit now pumps out 3 more STR 5 attacks than it did before (34), possibly without significant return blows if Fear works and with the Archons Armor of Misery, iot might well do so. The Medusae STR 4 AP 3 Eyeburst template is no joke either and more reliable than before, overall. Being in a Raider at point blank range by round 1, the templates could prove devastating if the battlefield situation doesnt call for disembarking. 265pts BeastMasters (3 Beast Masters with Agonizers, 4 Clawed Fiends, 2 Razorwing Flocks) The Beasts run up the field like they are shot from a cannon and Beast Masters have 3 Agonizer attacks on the charge, which means they can conceivably take out a WraithKnight with a bit of luck. Clawed Fiends lost a wound in the new Dex, and with it they went down 5 points (a fair exchange). Their high STR makes them important for pounding hulls and xenos alike into the ground and now that they have Rage I don't have to play wound shenanigan games with them. They are hitting with a whopping 6 attacks on the charge each AND you also don't have to worry about majority toughness issues anymore. This unit got way better for the way I used them. 190pts 4 Grotesques (Liquifier Gun, Aberration w Agonizer) 75pts Raider (Night Shield, Enhanced Aethersails) These guys took a step back, losing their easy to gain Furious Charge and their Master Haemonculous Upgrade. What was once a STR 7 beast on the charge is now STR 5, POSSIBLY STR 6 in round 3 if Urien is with them. That hurt since a big reason for me taking them was their ability to annihilate enemy hulls, sometimes several at once. but okay fine. Still not bad at it. However what they gave us is Poisoned Instant Death Weapons. Well... when you're str 6 on the charge, you're re-rolling to wounds. And if their unit is smaller than the enemies unit numerically, they get to Rampage which is just silly. because you of course realize that the enemy hulls will most likely never outnumber us. In the end analysis, I think we came out ahead on hull bashing from that perspective. But Dreadnoughts are now going to be a major issue. At STR 5, we can be locked up indefinitely by a Dreadnought. Not so excited about that. Ironically, we now can kill a WraithKnight easier than a Dreadnought. Fortunately, Dark Eldar probably won't prompt more people to want to play Dreadnoughts. 125pts 10 Kabalite Warriors (Splinter Cannon, Shredder, Sybarite w Phantasm Grenade Launcher) 75pts Raider (Enhanced Aethersails, Splinter Wracks) 125pts 10 Kabalite Warriors (Splinter Cannon, Shredder, Sybarite w Phantasm Grenade Launcher) 75pts Raider (Enhanced Aethersails, Splinter Wracks) This is experimental because I've not used Kabalite warriors, ever. I am forced by the Codex, for now, to use Kabalites as my troops. If I have to have them, may as well make them do damage. So I have given them three weapons to hammer the enemy with at close range. The Shredder is a fairly good and probably underrated weapon. The Phantasm Grenade Launcher (and its brother the Torment Grenade Launcher) are interesting weapons when the Archon is around with his Armor of Misery. What's more fun is that if someone has a character that they are using to tank wounds that has fearless or ATSKNF, they cant have wounds allocated to them. I thought "How dumb, that means the weapon is nigh pointless against Marines other than the SouldFright" but then after thinking about it, I realized that the Soulfright could not only be damaging at times but it gets through the Techpriest whose tanking, for example, or the Wolf Guard that joined the IG blob or what have you. Also, Daemons arent actually Fearless, nor are Zealots. So they won't be spared. The more I thought about it the more I thought it might actually be worth taking. Regardless, the Shredder and the Cannon will do damage as will their rifles so I expect some marginal production for the Kabalites against breakthroughs; and some scoring we hope. 130pts 5 Kabalite Trueborn (4 Blasters, Dracon w/ Haywire Grenade) 65pts Venom (Additional Splinter Cannon) Someone has to pop the transports early. Kabalite Trueborn are on the job. Not much to say here: 5 chances to get er done. The Trueborn lost access to Haywire Grenades which to my way of thinking was a pretty big deal. No longer are they able to run up, then next round shoot AND/or charge to kill tanks in melee. Now it's just more shooting and throwing a grenade. Not as assured anymore. So I am considering Dark Lances for the unit and changing them to a red herring for the backfield but I want to see if it is necessary, since Dark lances, already a suspect weapon at times, got more expensive to get. unfathomable really. I note a very large number of changes that have reduced our anti-tank capability. I really do think this is a ripple effect of Knight players perhaps not liking how quickly the behemoths can go down with some luck. Thats beside the point right now though. We will stay with blasters for now. 135pts Archon (Huskblade, Armor of Misery, Shadowfield, Plasma Grenades, Haywire Grenade) So much I want to do with him but he gets expensive fast. He will wallop people with this version and he does a lot for the force's LD manipulation. Shadowfields got way better, not ending til the turn is over even if you fail a save. STR 6 will make that irrelevant as it did before so... There's that. One hopes we will have enough to keep the enemy busy until he can do his grisly work. 140pts Urien Rakarth (Casket of Flensing, Ichor Gauntlet+Close Combat Weapon, Clone Field) . Less Expensive, does less and... He's okay I guess.Clone Field no longer makes him the challenge monster he was (but he dropped 50 points so...) He gained a lot in shooting, as his casket is now solidly STR 3 ap3. Not game changing, but at least you can kind of know when to use it, as compared to agonizing (see what I did there?) if you should or shouldn't use it because the variable str always made you unsure. 140pts Razorwing Jetfighter (4 Monoscythe Missiles, 2 Dark Lances) Purely taken as anti-air and I'll be frank, it feels like a pretty limp wristed measure at that. Two shots usually don't take flyers down. That's just math for ya' but hey the sun shines on a dogs butt once in a while. No flyer will fail to kill IT. Its anti-infantry weapons are okay and anti-TEQ is probably their strong suit but its just so limited in where it can be placed on the field, assuming you don't dedicate considerable effort to first killing the anti air. I didn't even bother upgrading it other than the Dark Lances. It'll be a crushing weight of fire when it comes in...if it survives coming in. Big if. It's worth 140 points to try though and at least it allows me not to totally concede the skies ot my enemy. Flying Daemon princes and the like are a SERIOUS problem and even if I take one out with Disintegrator cannon fire, or dare to dream kill two of the big boys, well... 120pts 5 Scourges (4 x Haywire Blasters) Reliable anti-Imperial Knight Hull Points is a good thing. Nothing works better than haywire blasters at it and Imperial Knights are a thing. So getting behind their shields is important and Scourges can do it and kind of force the question of where that shield is going to go. Between the Scourges to the rear and Trueborn to the front, one hopes we can nuke a Knight. Scourges are also just fine at starting the fun on transports in turn one on the approach. A lot of good things to say about Scourges, compared to the last Codex, and I think you'll see many more of them swooping in. Points: 1985 Kill Points: 15 Models: 60 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 I'm kinda sad that this isn't very unorthodox. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted October 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 Ironic to say the least since the push back on this concept was so huge before the new codex, and suddenly what i was already doing with dark Eldar turns out to be ahead of its time perhaps? I'll work on a list so incomprehensibly difficult to win with that no one will think it possible to do so. Will that make the tears go 'way, Fluger? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 I do think it's hilarious that you touted Mandrakes for so long and now that most people think they are good, you drop them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 Lord Hanaur, playing the contrarian? Shock and amazement! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted October 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 I do think it's hilarious that you touted Mandrakes for so long and now that most people think they are good, you drop them! I'm confused. i never dropped Mandrakes. they were good then forthe same reasons they are good now. LIKE i said before, the only reason people wouldnt use them THEN was they were too lazy to figure out how to drop a Haemonculous intio the unit. Player failure, not unit faulire. But now they dont even neeed that and the advent of "fast attack" transports makes them even more adaptable and better. So no one has abandoned them, least of all me. but THIS list and thread are dedicated to the idea of the Court of the Archon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 Weren't they in the 5th ed list? Never mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted October 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 Weren't they in the 5th ed list? Never mind. they were not in the 5th ed list. But I did play with them. in fact, here is a batrep i think i already shared. Mandrakes were great in the old codex, and in the new ones. Grotesques were awesome in the really old one also. I didnt use the mandrakes a ton because my list ended up being one of the Dark Carnival of Flesh. i liked that theme the best of any of them. Had a whole circus terrain thing planned and everything for it. Mandrakes have made an appearance here and there for me though just because I own 30 of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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