JMGraham Posted September 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 will then end times rules be in effect for this? I reckon we're sticking to pure Swedish here - if it gets covered in Swedish, then yes. However, I don't suspect that Swedish will accommodate it in time, if at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMGraham Posted September 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 Also - REGISTRATION IS CLOSED!!!! If you want to be put on the waiting list, PM me with your e-mail, or send an e-mail to bellinghamwarhamsters@gmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClassicFlava Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 I reckon we're sticking to pure Swedish here - if it gets covered in Swedish, then yes. However, I don't suspect that Swedish will accommodate it in time, if at all. I was thinking along the 50% lord and hero line which Swedish does account for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intrizic Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 put me on the list, put me on the list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 put me on the list, put me on the list Want to help me run my night goblins? It could be extra animositic (I know not a word but you will totally get it). I've played even fewer of the current edition games than Russ! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swan-of-War Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 So i scored a 16.5 using Swedish Comp Bring it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMGraham Posted October 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 I was thinking along the 50% lord and hero line which Swedish does account for. I'll have to chat with my co-conspirator Wiccus on this. My gut says "no" but I'm not sure. Loren, are you serious? You'd have a painted army? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intrizic Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 I am 100% for showing up at an event and having an army presented to me to play, I feel that's reliable ;D. I'm not serious, but I will seriously stop by to see the fun :D, maybe help Corey a bit ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romes Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 I was thinking along the 50% lord and hero line which Swedish does account for. Swedish doesn't currently account for this because it would require huge revamps on the global taxes. Swedish technically scores all of the heros and lords, but because it doesn't assume this change, their relative value does not take into account the possibilities opened up. The easiest example is that there is a "2nd daemon prince" cost in the warriors of chaos section which is higher than the cost of the first, however there is no "third daemon prince cost" (or event forth!), those taxes would be even higher. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClassicFlava Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Good point; i hadnt thought of that. There may be a few exceptions like the daemon prince, but do you rally think anyone is going to take more than two? That is probably their logic. If more than two have never been taken then they cant have a rating for it. Its not a big deal either way. I just change a scarvet to an oldblood in my list if its 50% lords and swedish does account for that change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romes Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Good point; i hadnt thought of that. There may be a few exceptions like the daemon prince, but do you rally think anyone is going to take more than two? That is probably their logic. If more than two have never been taken then they cant have a rating for it. Its not a big deal either way. I just change a scarvet to an oldblood in my list if its 50% lords and swedish does account for that change. That's not really what I'm saying, sorry I wasn't very clear. What I mean is, the people making the swedish comp do not consider the end times rules part of the main rules. The balancing of the point values between models thus does not reflect the changes to the meta that would result from allowing end times rules. The daemon prince listing is only a piece of evidence that it's not something they account for. Once you know it's not something the current scoring system accounts for, because of how the cumulative taxes are written, you know that the possibilities allowed by 50% lords are not part of how they score any given unit. For example, in your situation, double old blood would be silly to tax in the main system because doing it always means giving up a Slann. However, under end times rules, you could have a Slann and two old bloods, which increases the potential power level of a build with 2 oldbloods, and may mean additional comp on the second old blood. A more complex problem is that when you change the lord and hero allotment you change the relative value of all of the other units in the game. Take VC for example, the comp associated with a large unit of blacknights changes if all of a sudden a list can run two vampire lords. Also, a lot of choices are not comped hard specifically because by taking them you forgo other choices. When you relax the restriction, and taking A is no longer prohibitive of B, it changes the value of A. Basically, in order for swedish to be accurate under end times point breakdown, it would have to be completely re-written. I think the important thing to understand is that the swedish comp system is designed to try to prevent people from taking lists that are of a power level disproportionate to their score, so they would absolutely tax daemon prince 3 and 4, because the redundancy provided by those units would be really strong in some matchups. Because the system is effectively trying to "close all the holes" with it's constant updates, changing one of the core assumptions around army balance, how many points of lords and hero's you can have, invalidates the current version of the document. It's not that you could never have a swedish comp for the end times rule set, it's just that it doesn't exist now, and it's not really transferable between the rule sets. This is sort of separate but: So far, as far as I can tell, most of the major comp/tournament groups that are active are not considering the end time rule set as part of the core rules of the game, but rather as an optional supplement intended for casual play like storm of magic. It's possible that will change as time goes on and more books come out? It will be a busy fall! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClassicFlava Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 I understand now. That makes perfect sense. Thanks for expounding your explanation :-). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMGraham Posted October 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Romes seems to have answered the issue for us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 For a sec there was excited to upgrade all my big bosses to warlords and skip painting more stuff! Glad it is settled in a way that forces me to paint... Kinda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClassicFlava Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 That's not really what I'm saying, sorry I wasn't very clear. What I mean is, the people making the swedish comp do not consider the end times rules part of the main rules. The balancing of the point values between models thus does not reflect the changes to the meta that would result from allowing end times rules. The daemon prince listing is only a piece of evidence that it's not something they account for. Once you know it's not something the current scoring system accounts for, because of how the cumulative taxes are written, you know that the possibilities allowed by 50% lords are not part of how they score any given unit. For example, in your situation, double old blood would be silly to tax in the main system because doing it always means giving up a Slann. However, under end times rules, you could have a Slann and two old bloods, which increases the potential power level of a build with 2 oldbloods, and may mean additional comp on the second old blood. A more complex problem is that when you change the lord and hero allotment you change the relative value of all of the other units in the game. Take VC for example, the comp associated with a large unit of blacknights changes if all of a sudden a list can run two vampire lords. Also, a lot of choices are not comped hard specifically because by taking them you forgo other choices. When you relax the restriction, and taking A is no longer prohibitive of B, it changes the value of A. Basically, in order for swedish to be accurate under end times point breakdown, it would have to be completely re-written. I think the important thing to understand is that the swedish comp system is designed to try to prevent people from taking lists that are of a power level disproportionate to their score, so they would absolutely tax daemon prince 3 and 4, because the redundancy provided by those units would be really strong in some matchups. Because the system is effectively trying to "close all the holes" with it's constant updates, changing one of the core assumptions around army balance, how many points of lords and hero's you can have, invalidates the current version of the document. It's not that you could never have a swedish comp for the end times rule set, it's just that it doesn't exist now, and it's not really transferable between the rule sets. This is sort of separate but: So far, as far as I can tell, most of the major comp/tournament groups that are active are not considering the end time rule set as part of the core rules of the game, but rather as an optional supplement intended for casual play like storm of magic. It's possible that will change as time goes on and more books come out? It will be a busy fall! My only question is why does swedish even include mazdamundi if he cant even fit in games below 3120pts if you use the 25% lords rule? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romes Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 I assume it includes special characters in the books that it covers which exceed the normal lord allotment because while it's designed for 2400ish, it is possible to scale up, and it's better to give them an estimated value than none at all. Those costs are going to be the least well defined and are mostly guesswork. =P from the document: "This template is made to work for armies around 2400 points. Armies of points values to far from this will not get very accurate composition scores (2200 to 2600 should be fine). The composition values can be used for many things, some of the more common and tested uses are:" It allows, but does not suggest, applying the comp to much larger games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 4, 2014 Report Share Posted October 4, 2014 I have a question about list submission. As I am 3rd on the wait list, if I don't get a message, before the list deadline, will that disqualify me from the prizes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMGraham Posted October 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2014 Absolutely not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMGraham Posted October 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2014 Couple folks dropped, so I've updated the attendees and waitlist. Just A reminder that I'll be asking you to turn in your army lists within the next month, to give us time to double-check comp score. Details to follow! The tournament will use whatever Comp version is current as of 11/1 . Starting to work on some swag this weekend - should be fun! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 I have a few questions about this event: 1) Do you use the FAQ from the Masters? 2) What is the ruling for Murderous Prowess and K'dai Destroyer? Here are my two specific questions: a. A unit of 10 Corsairs are attacking a K'dai Destroyer with non-magical attacks. After rolling to-hit rolls I score 15 hits. I know roll to wound. I get 3 wounds with the first roll and 4 of the failed rolls are 1's. I set the 3 wounds to one side and re-roll the 4 1's. I then get 1 additional wound. Since you can't re-roll a re-roll does this mean I have to re-roll the 3 original wounds and the single wound I rolled due to Murderous Prowess doesn't get re-rolled for a second time? b. A unit of 10 Corsairs are attacking a K'dai Destroyer with non-magical attacks. After rolling to-hit rolls I score 15 hits. I know roll to wound. I get 3 wounds with the first roll. The unit of 10 Corsairs is within 6" of a Cauldron of Blood. I know re-roll are failed to wound rolls. I then get 4 additional wounds. Since you can't re-roll a re-roll, does this mean I have to re-roll the 3 original wounds and the 4 wounds re-rolled using the Murderous Prowess rule don't get re-rolled for a second time? I ask because I am bringing Dark Elves with a Cauldron of Blood and would like to know how this is going to be ruled before a possible game when this situation comes up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMGraham Posted October 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 1) Sure thing! 2) Ahh... The lovely K'Daai Destroyer, bane of the warhammer world... You can't re-roll a re-roll. I'm open for alternative takes, but from my understanding all re-rolls happen at the same time: a. Roll to hit. Roll to wound. Remove all the non-wounding dice that are not ones. Scoop up the dice consisting of 1s and dice causing wounding hits and re-roll them. Any wounds rolled then get applied as normal. b. Here you'll be re-rolling all wounds because of the K'daai, and re-rolling all failed wounds because of the Cauldron. Because this means you'll be rerolling EVERY dice, the two rules cancel each other out. Roll to wound once and don't reroll anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 Thank you for the clarification on this extremely rare instance of rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 WOOT WOOT....I'm in like flint! Holy moly my comp score is flipplin insane. It comes in at 5.9! Oh well, Malekith rides to war! Am I the only person out of 30 who cheats by playing dark elves? "HI, my name's MexicanNinja and I like to re-roll everything to make it fair for my army." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 Jim noticed something interesting about the squig hoppers and being able to reform... Will we be using the masters FAQ for how random movement and skirmishers reforms work? I would like to be able to reform the unit occasionally. http://www.ordofanaticus.com/index.php?/topic/22794-squig-hoppers-and-movement/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratrek Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 Where do you want me to send the list? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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