Blood Angels: ITC Tournament list - 1850ptc

[spagunk]

So I am trying to build a BA list for a tournament. I have a basic list down but was hoping maybe someone can toss some ideas on glaring holes.

 

It is an ITC tournament so most of what I have is painted or soon to be painted:

Composition: Lost Brotherhood Strike Force (angel's blade)

Command            
    Lemartes - Bolt Pistol, Blood Crozius  

                 
DC Strike Force            
    DC Chaplain - Relic: Guilded Crozius, Inferno Pistol, Jump Pack
    Death Company - 8x DC, Power Sword, Plasma Pistol, Rhino
    Death Company - 5x DC, Thunder Hammer, Inferno Pistol, Power Fist, Power Sword, Jump Packs        
    Death Company - 5x DC, 2x Power Swords, Power Fist, Inferno Pistol, Jump Pack    
    DC Dreadnought - Blood talons with built-in meltagun, Blood Talons with built-in storm bolter, Magna-grapple        

Lucifer Strike Force (angel's blade)
    Techmarine - Bolt Pistol, Chainsword        
    Baal Predator - TL Assault Cannon, Sponson Heavy Bolters        
    Baal Predator - TL Assault Cannon, Sponson Heavy Bolters            
    LandRaider Crusader(redeemer?) - Multi-melta        
    Predator - TL Lascannon, Lascannon sponson        

Rapid Assault Force (angel's blade)         
    Biker Squad - 3x bikers, Gravgun x2    
            
            
Comes to about 1848 pts. I don't know if a redeemer or a crusader is better so that could change things a bit. The redeemer would give me the 10 points I need to upgrade the biker sarge to a combi-grav.

 

The goal is to have the 8x foot DC and techmarine in the Landraider and use the hell out of the 6' formation move + scout redeploy to get in real close (thus the redeemer conundrum). This will screen/shield the DC Dread and JP DC and potentially get a first turn charge if all things work out.

 

I am really lacking in anti-tank though and really hinges on getting to the enemy first.

 

Thoughts? I'm trying to make this as BA pure as possible since I don't have the means to ally in Space Marines. I think this one will be pretty strict about having codex/books with you which is why I can't just download a copy of the Codex: SM to add in "Red Marine" allies.

 

Thoughts?

[Dusldorf]

you can't charge first turn if you scouted

[Guest]

you can't charge first turn if you scouted

I think he gets that, the point is more to get everything to point blank, despite not being allowed a turn 1 charge. A very gutsy tactic, and it can work.

[spagunk]

you can't charge first turn if you scouted

Swing and a miss!

 

Yeah, I already know you can't charge the turn you scout. Depending on how my opponent deploys, I could technically just do the 6' free move and then charge out of the landraider. It really depends.

 

However I end up having a 30" total movement potentially for all vehicles (6' free move due to formation bonus, 12" scout redeploy, 12" fast move). Jump packs still have 18" + 2d6 charge for a potential 30" move. The poor neglected Dread will only have 12"+2d6 charge move but can re-roll failed charges due to magna-grapple. Having a land raider with 30" of threat makes those super-flamer weapons somewhat viable!

[Guest]

Swing and a miss!

 

Yeah, I already know you can't charge the turn you scout. Depending on how my opponent deploys, I could technically just do the 6' free move and then charge out of the landraider. It really depends.

 

However I end up having a 30" total movement potentially for all vehicles (6' free move due to formation bonus, 12" scout redeploy, 12" fast move). Jump packs still have 18" + 2d6 charge for a potential 30" move. The poor neglected Dread will only have 12"+2d6 charge move but can re-roll failed charges due to magna-grapple. Having a land raider with 30" of threat makes those super-flamer weapons somewhat viable!

Wait, are you saying that the transport can scout and the tranported unit can still charge turn 1? Pretty sure the embarked unit is considered also using scout regarding the limitations on charging after scouting. I'd have to check.

[WestRider]

Wait, are you saying that the transport can scout and the tranported unit can still charge turn 1? Pretty sure the embarked unit is considered also using scout regarding the limitations on charging after scouting. I'd have to check.

No. The Formation gives him an extra pre-Game Move that is not a Scout Redeployment, and does not affect his ability to Charge Turn 1. He's saying that, depending on his Opponent's Deployment, he may be able to forgo the Scout Redeployment, and get into Charge Range by just using the extra Movement from the Formation bonus.

[Lord Hanaur]

which...is...awesome.

[Guest]

No. The Formation gives him an extra pre-Game Move that is not a Scout Redeployment, and does not affect his ability to Charge Turn 1. He's saying that, depending on his Opponent's Deployment, he may be able to forgo the Scout Redeployment, and get into Charge Range by just using the extra Movement from the Formation bonus.

In theory, all BRB missions require armies to start at least 24" apart. So assuming they are on the line, the land raider would need that free 6" move, then itself move another 6" and then the embarked unit charge and get 6s for charge range, to make that 24" gap, and even there, if the opponent is even 1mm away from the 24" mark, the plan will fail... Though I suppose if the opponent scouts or uses infiltrators, you could end up able for turn 1 charge. 

 

Though depending how anal your opponent is, it is true that the land raider front ramp is recessed inside the hull, and side doors are behind the sponsons, so if measuring disembark movemement from the actual access points of a model deployed 24" apart, the embarked models won't be able to go the full 24" even if the Land Raider get's a 6" push before the game starts. Very petty, but could come up in a tournament setting.  

[WestRider]

You forget the 6" Disembarkation. 6" Formation Move + 6" Vehicle Move + 6" Disembarkation Move leaves you a little over 6" outside the opposing Deployment Zone. If they're Deployed aggressively, a 7" Charge isn't outside the realm of possibility, and even a little carelessness on their part could leave you with a shot at a 9" Charge or so.

[AbusePuppy]

Anyone competent going second against the army is going to deploy well back from their line, and short of a horde army (which would welcome your charge) they should find it trivial to stay 6" past their own deployment line, thus denying you any possibility of a charge. Or, better yet, putting a bait unit 4" or 5" past, to give you a really difficult charge in case you decide to risk everything on a bad decision.

[Guest]

You forget the 6" Disembarkation. 6" Formation Move + 6" Vehicle Move + 6" Disembarkation Move leaves you a little over 6" outside the opposing Deployment Zone. If they're Deployed aggressively, a 7" Charge isn't outside the realm of possibility, and even a little carelessness on their part could leave you with a shot at a 9" Charge or so.

Yeah, looks like I didn't add one of the 6" steps. So, yeah, could work. 

 

Does seem like the kind of tactic that fails more than it works. I mean, if they understand you can do this (and why wouldn't they if you are playing with open lists), then they'll react accordingly. Plus, the whole plan could really bite you if you end up going second - especially if the opponent is also hoping to get into mid-low range (like because they have multi-meltas).

 

As an aside, when does the 6" free move take place? Or rather, how is it worded? I don't have this book. 

 

PS: List looks strong enough. For weaknesses, main issue I see is a lack of invulnerable saves and a sheer lack of melee options to cope with melee super heavies (like imperial knights). Should be fine if you can keep the super heavies at range, as you have enough shooting AT options. The lack of invulerables isn't horrible, but it will make certain types of opponents difficult to cope with. I am aware that both of these things are weak points of the BA codex and aren't really avoidable in a pure BA force. 

[WestRider]

Yeah, it's something that's only likely to succeed against someone who doesn't know how it works, someone who really screws up, or someone who gets seized on. But on a purely mechanical level, it is possible.

 

I don't have the book on hand at the moment, so I can't look up the exact timing of it right now.

[Lord Hanaur]

Ah but objectives make getting trapped too far in your own zone a mixed thing. If an enemy can simply blockade you and start scoring... the win counts no matter how inelegant.

[Guest]

Ah but objectives make getting trapped too far in your own zone a mixed thing. If an enemy can simply blockade you and start scoring... the win counts no matter how inelegant.

True, though most armies include units which circumvent the traditional blockades, like via deep strike or outflank or just with fast units which ignore terrain/opponents (like fast skimmers). I only rarely see players bring armies which entirely rely on being able to push out from their default deployment zone AND are also unable to just wipe the floor with anything BA (and most marines in general) in assault. 

 

Maybe a static gunline army, but even those usually have a few mobile units that could get behind the blockade. 

[WestRider]

I searched around a bit, and the move takes place immediately after Deploying each Unit. So, unlike Scout, it can't really be used to wrong-foot your Opponent with a lateral redeployment or something, but that also means that it can't be stopped by Servo Skulls, and happens early enough that it can push out your zone of blocking off enemy Infiltrators or Scouts.

[Lord Hanaur]

True, though most armies include units which circumvent the traditional blockades, like via deep strike or outflank or just with fast units which ignore terrain/opponents (like fast skimmers). I only rarely see players bring armies which entirely rely on being able to push out from their default deployment zone AND are also unable to just wipe the floor with anything BA (and most marines in general) in assault. 

 

Maybe a static gunline army, but even those usually have a few mobile units that could get behind the blockade. 

"most" armies, not all.  Also, those units arent always on target, arent always hearty and its not as if you dont have something in your backfield also.  So all I was saying is that if someone "smart" backs up to the point that a charge is virtually impossible or flat out impossible, they've put their entire army that much farther from objectives, so it's not necessarily so "smart" to do that.  Sometimes you just have to take the chance and assert positional dominance.  

 

You'd know what kind of army they own before you decide so think of it more as an option to utilize that you dont have to.

[pretre]

Yeah, it's something that's only likely to succeed against someone who doesn't know how it works, someone who really screws up, or someone who gets seized on. But on a purely mechanical level, it is possible.

 

I don't have the book on hand at the moment, so I can't look up the exact timing of it right now.

It is hilarious when it works though. In fifth, i caught a few people who didn't know the geometry of the corners mission with turn 1 TWC charges. ;)

[Tamwulf]

If it's a mission with objectives and you have to get somewhere, most opponent's will deploy right on that line so they can reach objectives. And if you are facing another assault based army, they probably won't care if you get into close combat on turn 1. Hell, they might even want you to.

 

They only weakness I see would be against your typical threats- Drop Pod Armies of DOOOooom! and Flyers. Not much intercept or Skyfire in the list, so you have to depend on 24" range, snap shot TL Assault Cannons on the Baal Preds to bring any flyers down. Might be something to consider.

 

Overall, I like the list! But you really need to get the charge off, and not get charged, or you lose all those fantastic bonuses!

 

Looking forward to seeing it on the table!

[Guest]

Regarding deployment, I highly recommend deploying the land raider facing backwards. You can always flip it turn 1 or with the scout move, but the big advantage here is that if/when it is wrecked, the embarked models can disembark behind it's shell (which ususally denies LOS for further shooting and charges). Downside here is that if you do get immobilised, but not destroyed, the LR weapons are likely unable to shoot the enemy (especially with the new plastic LRC and the LRR as their sponsons lack 180 movement. The old metal bits LRC had 180 degrees of fire arc).

[spagunk]

Not getting first turn is going to my biggest concern. Been concentrating on what to do if I don't have it.

 

So I consider the first turn charge a bonus rather than my overall tactic. My number one concern is getting all my vehicles and troop right up in the middle of the army where templates and other nasty things will force the opponent to really work on positioning. Really, I am shooting for second turn charge with the hope of catching the user off guard and capitalizing on any mistakes made during the first turn. If I don't chose to do a first turn charge, then I have 30" to get right up into their faces, take objectives or back the hell up all the way back to force the opponent to come to me. Kind of defeats the purpose of my army but I want to be realistic as possible.

 

The hope is that my vehicles being up in their face is going to shield the jump pack DC enough to slam into anything that needs to be wiped off the table. Enemy back fielders like drop pods and the like will sting really hard but if my main force slams into theirs, then their "infiltrators" now have to deploy real close with few targets or sit there with nothing to do.

IDK, when push comes to shove, I am sure I'm going to forget my strategy all together and just wing it. :p

[Guest]

Not getting first turn is going to my biggest concern. Been concentrating on what to do if I don't have it.

 

So I consider the first turn charge a bonus rather than my overall tactic. My number one concern is getting all my vehicles and troop right up in the middle of the army where templates and other nasty things will force the opponent to really work on positioning. Really, I am shooting for second turn charge with the hope of catching the user off guard and capitalizing on any mistakes made during the first turn. If I don't chose to do a first turn charge, then I have 30" to get right up into their faces, take objectives or back the hell up all the way back to force the opponent to come to me. Kind of defeats the purpose of my army but I want to be realistic as possible.

 

The hope is that my vehicles being up in their face is going to shield the jump pack DC enough to slam into anything that needs to be wiped off the table. Enemy back fielders like drop pods and the like will sting really hard but if my main force slams into theirs, then their "infiltrators" now have to deploy real close with few targets or sit there with nothing to do.

 

IDK, when push comes to shove, I am sure I'm going to forget my strategy all together and just wing it. :p

One thing you could do is use the scout move, instead of advancing, to shift the position of your tanks so you attack in another direction or tank formation. For example, you could create a 24" gap between your forces, or fill one, just with that scout move on your tanks. A fun scouting tank tactic is to deploy easy target infantry that cause the opponent to create a fire lane on them, then scout deploy your tank to block LOS to that target. And you could always use the scout move to back up, which would especially throw the off if they are expected you to attempt a turn 1 charge. 

 

Your list, while impressive in assault, would actually do fine at range, provided opponents are 18-30" away. You've got some units that function further or closer, but 18-30" seems like your ideal range for most of your shooting weapons. In this respect, I recommend the LRC over the LRR. 

[Guest]

Oh, of note to tactics with scout, note that it is a "Redeploy" rather than a move in 7th edition. This means that you can initially deploy your tank in difficult terrain and not need a dangerous terrain check when you scout. You can also "effectively" move through walls, as the model is just placed the distance from where they started and doesn't have to be able to "drive there" within that distance. 

 

So, in example, if your terrain has a bunch ruin terrain that blocks LOS, you can redeploy behind it, or out from behind it, which can really alter how the opponent reacts to your initial deployment.

[spagunk]

I looked at my models and found an errant inferno pistol I don't actually have. That's 15 extra points.

 

 

I can drop the empty rhino and either add a multi-melta attack bike, add more bodies to my biker squad or drop the biker squad and get another fast predator. I can also get a drop pod with meltagun assault marines in there with 25 points extra for tank upgrades.

 

Thoughts?

[Guest]

Any chance you can add a whirlwind to the list? Having barrage in the army has always proven useful for me. The whirlwind is weak, but it usually earns it's points back, plus your list could use an extra backfield objective holder since the rest is so aggressive.

[Lord Hanaur]

Whirlwinds are very efficient points wise