kb10r - Daemon Build Blog

[kb10r]

Hello,

I'm starting up this blog to organize my build of a Warhammer 40k Daemon army.

Some of this is to have a place to store the thinking behind my decisions so I can look at it in the future and mock my poorly thought out ideas.

Some of this is to give myself a "fun" way to not let this project stall out.

Some of this is to give a venue for others to comment on my build and give guidance on my process... read at your own risk.

 

Part 1: Why Daemons

I have three and a half armies sitting around my house:

Chaos Space Marines: My first army ( Never forget ) and one I have had a lot of fun playing. I have some bad memories, as their codex has really gone crazy over the last few editions.

Blood Angels: I have a lot of BA in boxes and I want to have a heavy jump pack army, but who knows what their 8th codex will look like.

Chaos Daemons: My last army I played a lot of. Random, mostly in a good way.

Chaos Guard: I really liked "the Lost and the Damned" army; big guns and mutants.

 

But Daemons still a couple of things that I want to have fun with:

Universal invulnerable saves: with all the AP updates in 8th edition and the weakness of cover, this sounds good.

Fine close combat: CC appears to be really deadly now, so having something that can combat against elite units is good.

Good movement: Lots of fly and no reason not to advance gives them some speed.

I have many stupid looking models. ( maybe the last models that are actually flipping people off? )

 

But they suck at:

NO transports, so you are walking around everywhere.

No deep strike; The "summon" thing is dumb; just don't start. Maybe when their codex comes out this will all get better.

Terrible anti-armor: Come on... this really sucks, but at least we have a fast moving unit that eats into STARSHIPS! Oh they can't even kill a rhino now..   wow.

Relatively easy to counter. ( Flyers; a whole army MADE to kill them; snipers; Assassins; Big things; gun lines ) Against an all comers list, daemons will be fun, but it doesn't take much to counter them.

 

 

Let's do it.

[SPaceORK]

Good luck! Demons are fun.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, kb10r said:

 

But they suck at:

NO transports, so you are walking around everywhere.

No deep strike; The "summon" thing is dumb; just don't start. Maybe when their codex comes out this will all get better.

Terrible anti-armor: Come on... this really sucks, but at least we have a fast moving unit that eats into STARSHIPS! Oh they can't even kill a rhino now..   wow.

Relatively easy to counter. ( Flyers; a whole army MADE to kill them; snipers; Assassins; Big things; gun lines ) Against an all comers list, daemons will be fun, but it doesn't take much to counter them.

 

Daemons are just fine anti-armor, they just don't have traditional Anti-armor options, like AM or SM would have. For daemon anti-armor, you have either psychic powers, monsterous creatures, or the "does more damage on 6s" weapons. That Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage is wonderful for anti-armor, as his melee weapon is basically a melee melta gun with 7 attacks on the charge (he can destroy most titans if given the chance to swing at them in melee). Most of the slaanesh units are pretty effective at denying armor saves in melee and are often super fast. Mortal wounds work just great against tanks, too.  

Regarding Flyers, recall that anything with the "fly" keyword can assault flyers in this edtion. So daemons got a huge boon there, since bloodthirsters, princes, lords of change and Chaos harpies can now all freely melee flyers with their full attacks. You could also add a Helldrake to any Chaos Daemon army without any changes to faction, since a helldrake is already a Chaos Daemon in this edition. 

No transports per say, but you could include buildings which do transport daemon infantry, even if they don't transport them to anywhere. Could get some extra AT or AA via that route, or just them to deploy turn 1 without any soft targets on the table. 

Agree with the summon mechanic being dumb. I hope it is fixed with the codex. 

FW also has some pretty nasty Chaos Daemon Lords of War. The GW Lord of Skulls is a Chaos Daemon, and certainly not a pushover. 

And Daemons have a lot of really strong psychic powers, like that Treason of Tzeentch, which is very OP if you can get it off. 

As for countering daemons, I think mono-god daemon lists are easy to counter, but daemon players that disregard daemonic stereotypes will present a strong threat to most armies. That chaos index is not weak. GK will always give Daemons trouble, but no avoiding that. That said, lots of things in the Daemon section of the chaos index are really overpriced right now, so that needs fixing badly. Like the CD daemon prince is considerably more expensive than the CSM version. I'm told they'll be updating the points in the indexes soon.

[SigurdBC]

Having played as Daemons a few times in 8th there are a few things that I've observed that you could use in your list "noodling":

• Mono-God lists don't seem to work as well in this edition. In 7th, I had no problem giving opponents a run for their money with my mono-Nurgle list, even coming out ahead a fair bit. However, in 8th I'm finding that Nurgle just doesn't pack enough of an offensive punch at either range or melee to be able to carry itself anymore. You just don't seem to do enough damage before you are gunned down or chopped up in cc. I would recommend a mixing of the gods, and you can determine how much or how little you want to do on that front. 
• You need at least some range. Chaos Daemons by themselves don't have a lot of shooting, outside of the psychic phase, in this edition or in 7th. We've got Soul Grinders and Skull Cannons, both of which are unimpressive in this edition for their points. I would recommend allying in some CSM guns to fill this roll. Obliterators are a great choice along with things like Predators, Vindicators, Havocs, and Helldrakes to deal with the heavy stuff and units like Blight Drones, Chaos Space Marines, etc. to deal with the lighter targets. A pure melee army, which I have tried in my few batreps, don't seem to do the deed anymore like they could in 7th. 
• Put wings on the Prince. With a movement of only 8'' for a melee focused model you will find that your Daemon Princes will take too long to get up the field before their fodder shield gets blown apart or they are sniped out by snipers and other long range, high str shooting units. They are a great unit don't get my wrong but that extra mobility that the wings gives you is a must I feel on Princes in this edition. As an added bonus, this allows them to assault flyers, fall back and still shoot if given a Warp Bolter, and pass over other units which would otherwise block them up and get in their way. It can be pricey but well worth it in my opinion. 

Just my two cents on a few things and best of luck with your army building. I'll be most interested to see what you come up with since I've been at a loss as to how to build an effective mono-Daemon list in this edition.   

[Kremmet]

I think the mono argument misses out on taking the demonic allies from the CSM book. Tzeentch in particular is still very powerful bringing only DoTz units given how potentially devastating Smite spam is and how capable Brimstones are for cheap point capturing.

[kb10r]

Hey Guys, thanks for the comments in the thread, I'll get back to them after todays post.

 

Part 2: 2000 points

While awaiting the codex... I am going to ponder out a 2000 point list that I work toward, with 500/750/1000/1250/1500/1750 sub-lists in mind:

HQ:

2 Daemon Princes of Tzeentch with Wings and claws

2 Heralds of Tzeentch on Disc with staff

The Changeling

Troops:

5 units of 11 Pink horrors with 2 Blue and 2 Brimstone 

Elites:

2 units of 5 flamers

Heavy:

3 Burning Chariots 

3 Giant Chaos Spawn of tzeentch

 

More on my reasoning Tomorrow.

 

[SigurdBC]

I realize the reasoning is coming, but just as a recommendation if this is going to be one battalion detachment that you split off the second Daemon Prince and the Heralds and bring a Supreme Command Detachment. It's the detachment with the 3-5 HQs and optional Elite and Super Heavy slots. This would give you an extra command point and still give you the same exact list. 

[WestRider]

12 hours ago, SigurdBC said:

I realize the reasoning is coming, but just as a recommendation if this is going to be one battalion detachment that you split off the second Daemon Prince and the Heralds and bring a Supreme Command Detachment. It's the detachment with the 3-5 HQs and optional Elite and Super Heavy slots. This would give you an extra command point and still give you the same exact list. 

Yep. One of the Army-building skills in 8th is keeping your eyes open for "passive optimization" opportunities like that. There are a surprising number of times when you can get at least one extra CP just by reorganizing the exact Units you were already taking.

[kb10r]

Hello again,

Part 3: List reasoning.

@SigurdBC: thanks for the comment. Yes, I would break this into a Battalion and a Spearhead ( Heavy support ) for the extra command point. I was thinking hard about a 6th Troop to bring two Battalions and get the sweet sweet 9 CP.

For this first build I decided to go for a mono-Tzeentch army because:

4+ inv save

Lots of Fly units to avoid walking around everywhere

Smite, Smite, Smite

The Changeling.

I think the core of the list is the changeling. He ( It? )  gives a 9" bubble of -1 to hit. So starting the game I should have most if not all the army in the bubble giving a nice little boost, with the 4+ inv to survive the first turn or so.

Generally I want to end the turn at around 17-18 inches for smiteing and throwing flames. Backing up if possible to maintain this. Knowing when to rush forward with everything will be key.

Tthe Daemon Princes get immunity from shooting as they are Characters under 10W, so they act with their wings as a counter strike, or a precision strike against anything that advances. Strangely, the Greater Spawn does this as well... kinda. 10W T5 4+ inv is generally survivable, and will draw fire from my two special units: the flamers and the burning chariots. I am really interested in seeing if they can survive.

I have always had a soft spot for flamers, and while these new ones are too expensive, they are a great anti-troop units. 5d6 of S4 -1AP autohit pistols is.. pretty good. Combined with their 12 inch move, they should give more strike power to the army.

I think of the Chariots as weird all around units. Anti-Air, they should charge causing about 5W. Which is nice. They give you 2 "cheap" screamers ina body that can still shoot. Their D6 S5 AP-2 autohit pistols are for small units and should be goodish.

The Spawn are interesting. They are there to get in the way, and if not hurt ( which COULD happen from healing or being ignored ) should cause 2-4 W on a Rhino or kill 3 marines or so. Fine.

The Horrors are at 11-2-2 just for 5 ablative W before losing the better Smite. It's sad that they are the only standard daemon Troop that does not gain a benifit for size 20. Their Assault Weapons give a little more flexibility, but I am assuming they will never kill anything with their guns, but when they do, it will be like a little bonus. Mathhammer says 22 shots v. MEQ = 1.3 dead MEQ... so I have that going for me.

The Hearlds are only on Disc to flush out the last few points and to sacrifice 1 to jump with the Daemon Princes and Spawn to give them +1S on their attacks. It can also help with positioning for Smite. 

 

So there you go, the unstoppable Tzeentch Army...

[SigurdBC]

Even though I know spawn aren't amazing don't underestimate what they can do. Take into account that their attacks do 2 dmg a piece at AP -2. Run that bad boy into a combat with a squad of Terminators and watch your opponent sweat when you are wounding him on 3s (spawn are str 5 as I recall) and he has to now save on 4s instead of the seemingly invincible 2s. Nothing feels worse than losing Terminators to spawn of all things. 

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, SigurdBC said:

Even though I know spawn aren't amazing don't underestimate what they can do. Take into account that their attacks do 2 dmg a piece at AP -2. Run that bad boy into a combat with a squad of Terminators and watch your opponent sweat when you are wounding him on 3s (spawn are str 5 as I recall) and he has to now save on 4s instead of the seemingly invincible 2s. Nothing feels worse than losing Terminators to spawn of all things. 

Plus spawn are non-INFANTRY so they can tie up titans. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, kb10r said:

For this first build I decided to go for a mono-Tzeentch army because:

4+ inv save

Lots of Fly units to avoid walking around everywhere

Just a couple of things to be aware of:

First, most Tzeentch daemon don't have a 4+ invulnerable save. They have a 5+ invulnerable save with a +1 modifier on the die. This small distinction does matter mechanically. The main difference is that modifiers are not applied when determining if a re-roll is needed (like rerolling all failed saves would not include the modifier when determing if the die needed to be rerolled). There are other, often obscure, interactions where this may matter.  

Second, flying is very nice, but beware, there are lots of anti-flyer options in the game. Don't mean to say you shouldn't bring them, but it is something to keep in mind that being a flyer isn't always an advantage. 

Anyway, nothing against Tzeentch. They have a strong set of army options, provided the opponent doesn't have crazy psychic defense, of course. Lots of fun options too. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, kb10r said:

Tthe Daemon Princes get immunity from shooting as they are Characters under 10W, so they act with their wings as a counter strike, or a precision strike against anything that advances. 

 

Just a note, the Daemon Princes got an FAQ update that alters their wound profile. Gives them an equal statline to the CSM ones. Princes are good, but the character rule doesn't grant immunity to shooting. They just can't normally be targeted by most shooting attacks if they aren't the closest model. There are shooting attacks that will ignore this, and the big drawback with winged princes is that they can go faster than most stuff in the army, which means you may end up too far ahead of the rest of your army (which makes the prince the closest model and ruins their "immunity" to shooting).

[InfestedKerrigan]

You know you don't have to move your full move value, ya pax?

[kb10r]

10 hours ago, paxmiles said:

First, most Tzeentch daemon don't have a 4+ invulnerable save. They have a 5+ invulnerable save with a +1 modifier on the die. This small distinction does matter mechanically. The main difference is that modifiers are not applied when determining if a re-roll is needed (like rerolling all failed saves would not include the modifier when determing if the die needed to be rerolled). There are other, often obscure, interactions where this may matter.  

 

Yes, good point. I don't think I have any defensive re-rolls, so in 99.9% percent of the time it is the same. But it is good to keep in mind for weird scenario rules, or weird terrain rules.

[kb10r]

10 hours ago, paxmiles said:

but the character rule doesn't grant immunity to shooting.

Yes, Yes... "sed s/immunity to shooting/can not be targeted unless they are the closest unit/g"

I did not mean to imply they could not be targeted at all, I was just using shorthand.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, kb10r said:

Yes, Yes... "sed s/immunity to shooting/can not be targeted unless they are the closest unit/g"

I did not mean to imply they could not be targeted at all, I was just using shorthand.

I figured as much, but was just clarifying in the off chance you didn't know. Would be really annoying to play a game and only it learn during the game.

 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, kb10r said:

 

Yes, good point. I don't think I have any defensive re-rolls, so in 99.9% percent of the time it is the same. But it is good to keep in mind for weird scenario rules, or weird terrain rules.

The command reroll stratagem is the most common means to do this. I also wouldn't be surprised if their are enemy abilties that cause targets to have to rerolls successful saves. 

[kb10r]

Part 4: Models

My 2000 requires:

2 DP w/wings

2 Disc Riders

Changeling

55 pink horrors; 10 Blue Horrors; 10 Brimstone Horrors

10 Flamers

3 Burning Chariots

3 Giant Chaos Spawn

 

I need to:

1) get them;

2) Get them into minimum play-ability;

3) paint them up;

4) actually play...

 

OK, no problem.

[Guest]

A man with a plan. Awesome. Go for it. 

[kb10r]

Part 4 Troops acquired:

Yes that is 55 pink horrors; 10 Blue Horrors; 10 Brimstone Horrors, stripped, and based....

On to HQ.

[kb10r]

Part 4: HQ acquired:

2 Daemon Princes ( one disassembled ) ,

2 heralds on Disks,

and a changeling. ( currently in the guise of a Skaven sorcerer )

 

[CaptainA]

Chapter Approved is bumping Giant Chaos Spawns up in points by quite a bit. Up to 150 points.

[Guest]

A well deserved point increase, as I understand it. 

[kb10r]

2 hours ago, CaptainA said:

Chapter Approved is bumping Giant Chaos Spawns up in points by quite a bit. Up to 150 points.

We can rebuild the list. We have the technology. We can make it better than it was. Better, stronger, faster.