MexicanNinja

I am agreeing that RAW the crossbows don't get AP. What I was saying above was that I hope an FAQ doesn't say that ranged weapons get this as well.

I hope they don't get AP because now you have handguns with a 36" range.

The counter arguement could then be: You have 11 units which need to be killed to a man with the possiblity of going back to full strength with double 1's, everything has a ward save, and you have 10 fear causing units and a terror causing units. Yes, the Daemon DP is not nearly as good as the WoC DP; however, it's still a DP and can still do tremendous things. It's not weak. Unfortunately, 90% of the people I have met who play daemons think nurgle are the best. While they are good, I don't think they are the best the book has to offer. I think plague bearers are trash and aren't that much of a threat. Beasts, on the other hand, are good but I have still seen them flop and they still die to shooting. I believe that there needs to be a clear concise ruling on what is considered to be an MSU list. Now, to counter argue myself. Do I think either of the lists are OP, not in the slightest. Do I think either of them would not be fun to play against, nope. Would I consider them MSU, 100% yes. Why? Because you have 11 units in both armies and only 1 unit in either one of them is meant for frontale assaults.

Ok, basically the rule states the if a model has AP it only applies to his close combat attacks. If a model with a weapon has AP then AP only applies to those attacks. Example: Runepriest gives AP to the models in his units. Therefore their close-combat attacks have AP. Crossbows don't have AP and so wouldn't benefit from AP. Handguns have the AP rule so get AP when used to shoot. The model doesn't have AP for their close-combat attacks.

Perfect, this is much easier when the rule in question is presented to us.

So, that doesn't make much sense. Here are 3 examples of range weapons with the AP special rule: 1) Reaper Bolt Thrower 2) Dwarf Handguns 3) Empire Pistols Those are just 3 examples that show range weapons with AP. I'll have to re-read the MRB tonight though. If you had blessed us with a page reference and maybe an blurb from the page we could have a more intelligent conversation about this.

My first question is this: At what point does the rating comitty for OFCC lists state a list is an MSU? What are the OFCC qualifications for an MSU army? Depending on the answers to the above I could have better qaulifiable answers. However, at this time, both lists are very MSU style. Both lists have 11 units with the main difference being the multiple units of 10 horrors and the big block of blood letters.

But austin powers liked twins! He's not a role model any more?

Sweet, I'll be in Sisters.

You could prolly drop one of the trapper units. Use the points to get the crown on your slaughtermaster. It may be worth it to look into a Talisman of Preserveration for him as well. Make him as survivable as possible.

He was suggesting the tyrant because of his damage output. Yes, the slaughtermaster can fight, but won't do nearly as much damage in a single round or 2. However, if you get regen off on a unit of 100 gnoblar's.....yup, good luck chuck. Here's my suggestions on your army: Crown of Command on your Slaughtermaster- this will ensure the unit is always Stubborn, while the character is in the unit. Keep the leadbelchers naked- you could use those points to either add more re-directers (sabretusks) or try and invest in a gorger for a possible back field threat. I really like the army though.

if you decide on using great swords, make sure you take a few things to properly support them.

Check out the goblin king model for The Hobbit. That may work as a stand in butcher.

Yeah, that's what I figured. I am hoping for udpated FAQ's for army books recently released.

I have to agree Iraf, the new layout is nice.

So, with the absense of any FAQ's does this mean the ones I have printed out are invalid? Do we not reference FAQ's any longer and just throw our hands up and say, "F IT ALL!"

I like it. Test play a fe games with the hell cannon. There are reasons why people fear that thing! It has a great profile for shooting and fighting.

Level 4 butcher, hunter on stonehorn, bsb, 2 hordes of 40-50 gnoblars, units of trappers, sabre tusks, and a thundertusk? It keeps your gnoblar theme, gives you the monster for your trappers, has a hunter leading them, you get some magic, and have bsb. The two monsters make up for your lack of combat effectiveness with the gnoblars. However, gnoblars just aren't that effective. Best of luck to you.

I'm still hoping.

Could we start to hope for updated FAQ's?

Here's my suggestion on the wizard. If he's just for defense make him a level 2 unmarked wizard with a lore that will help your army out. Instead of a dispel scroll, I know it will help you once, but I would take the Staff of Sorcerey which will give you a consistant +3 to dispel attempts and is cheaper than a level 3 wizard. I don't think you need LoM on your wizard. You have a lot of units which can deal with armoured threats. I would suggest death or fire. I suggest those two lores because it gives you a chance to kill mulitple threats at range. You have no shooting and will need something to make up for this. The Staff of Sorcerey is listed in the FAQ. It's one of the most forgotten and underestimated items, IMO. I like to stick it on my level 4, for the +5 to dispel. I like the shrine, it can help with clearing chaff. It's not easy for weak things to kill. The vortex beast is meh, to me. It can do great or it can do horrible. I don't think there's a solid middle ground for that unit. The one thing I think you are lacking, and because you are giving up magic entirely, is a Hellcannon. You need something to help deal with horde type units. It keeps your opponent honest, does great things but can still predictable.

Raindog, to be completely honest, I strongly believe that a competitive Dwarf list should have a grudge thrower, flame cannon, and a cannon. I think you will get better results from a grudge thrower over an organ gun in most cases. That thing is great at making large units small in number.

I like the solar engine. The snake thing is well....yeah.

I won't be making it this month. Visiting family this weekend.

No Bloodthirster? Nothing says Khorne theme more than a Bloodthirster.