Sugarlessllama

This. So much this. Personally, I have found competitive 40K players to be kind of lazy. And what I mean by that, is that they lean too much on their army rules being out of balance rather than on their skill as a player. When the top tables are all, "the meta" as can be found on a netlist, I don't consider than excellent play on their part. I came to 40K from Warmachine. I played competitive Warmachine for 10 years. And the "meta" in Warmachine revolved around play design and not factions. Heavy 'Jacks, or infantry would be "the meta", not Protectorate, or Khador. And the last year I went to Lock & Load, the World Championship was won by a Cygnar player, and Cygnar was the "weakest" faction at the time. The top tables always had the same few players, and the same players rarely, if ever, changed factions. Wil Pagani is a Circle player. And was considered by many to be the best player in the world before he got hired by the PP design team. But 40K doesn't really track the best players. Because it tracks the most broken book. It kind of doesn't matter who is rolling the dice when the outcome has been decided by the match making most of the time. That is not skill, that is paying to win. I am hoping that 8th edition will fix it. Hitting the hard reset on WFB and turning it into AoS has done great things for their comp scene IMHO. I think it really brought back a level of skill based play that was missing from that game for a long time. In other words: play what you want. So, that's my two cents.

I'm not your buddy, chum!

I'm not your pal, friend!

I am sorry that you feel like I am writing you off. That is not my intention. However, it is clear that we view the game very differently. I am a long time WFB player, and so I lived through the shift to AoS. To call the shift from WFB to AoS a "meta shift" would be incorrect. A whole new game was created, with very different core mechanics. Almost the same thing has happened to 40K. So for me, this isn't my first rodeo. And so for me, things are looking great. For you things are looking grim. And I don't know what to tell you. But last time this happened, I allowed the negativity of the community to get me down, before I even had a chance to put models on the table. And I refuse to allow it to happen to me again. And so, we are at an impasse. And we will have to agree to disagree. Have fun. :D

Well, I am sorry that you feel so "meh" about Blood Angels. But you say that the stats prove otherwise, and I wonder what it is you are looking at. I look at them and I see a powerhouse faction on the table. Here is why: This edition is very, very different than every other edition you have played. Which means that everything that can before you have to forget. I am not being facetious here. You really have to view this edition of the game in a vacuum. This IS NOT a meta shift. A new codex is a meta shift. A new FAQ is a meta shift. A new faction is a meta shift. The entire game got reset. And it is a hard reset. "Why are we still being short changed on BA affiliated anti-air?" You aren't. You are thinking "How can I shoot planes down". First, everything can shoot at planes now. Most units just have a -1 to hit rolls for doing so. But guess what! Anything with FLY as a keyword can Charge fliers and lock them in combat. Yeah. You can lock fliers in combat. And you know what has the FLY keyword? Jump Packs. What faction has jump packs on everything? Blood Angels. So now DC can charge Helldrakes. Yeah. "Why does Dante basically have crap to do with the army besides being a beat stick (Strategic Genius is where now?)" Well he has Chapter Master which gives re-rolls to hit for all BA models within "6. That is a big buff. He has a Death Mask which is -1 to Leadership to all enemy models within 3", which is effectively adding an additional casualty to all enemy units every morale phase. That is huge. And his weapons are pretty strong. So, he is still awesome. As for Strategic Genius, this did what? Granted an additional warlord trait? Which was kind of a double re-roll on the traits table? Well, as for warlord traits, you can just pick the one you want. It isn't random anymore. Just pick it. "All statistics prove otherwise as we have to sink so many points to buff the one unit so they accomplish something. That is not a balance, that's a crutch." So, in this edition of the game Charging does not grant an additional attack. Except for DC. They come stock with Chainswords, which grants an additional attack. Additional attacks are pretty rare niche in this edition. And DC get two of them stock. That is huge. "Why am I sinking points into a priest,...." Every Space Marine faction gets an apothecary that heals wounds. The Blood Angel variety, does that AND increases strength. Not +1 strength, but Increases. That means it is added BEFORE multipliers. So a DC with a TH hits at strength 10, not 9. And given the simplified wounding system that is HUGE! For example. Old DC w/ TH using the new wound chart, wound Plague Marines on 3 (S9 v T5. S9 is not double T5, and so they wound on 3.) But now with the Sang Priest they wound on 2 (S10 v T5 = 2xT -> 2 to wound). In 7th Edition DC charging a Blood Thirster would have a hard time. First, since the Blood Thirster has WS 10, the DC would be hitting on 5s. Under the new system they hit on 3s. Under the old system, the Blood Thirster would go first, even if the DC charged. In the new system, the DC go first. And they are hitting hard. " Why am I paying almost twice the points for a Baal Pred when I can spend half that for a razorback and only lose a wound and an attack? " The Baal Predator has three weapon systems (before upgrades) and can shoot at three different things. And it can shoot and advance. " Isn't this supposed to be the anti-deathstar edition?" Deathstars are things like Tau-dar, or Super-Friends where you had a Frankenarmy of four different factions across five different supplements slapped together to make something unfun. You are describing a Blood Angels army fielding Death Company, A Sanguinary Priest, Astorath, and Dante. All of them are BA characters. And they were all in use before. "I center on DC because everyone thinks they are sooooo good this edition" So, to mention their virtues again: They can deepstrike without reserve rolls or scatter, and they can charge out of deepstrike. They get an axtra attack when they charge (which is rare) They come stock with pistols and chainswords (chainswords also grant an additional attack). This means that when they charge out of deepstrike, they can get like 4 attacks each. And then, when they are locked in combat they can shoot their pistols, and then swing with their chainswords for 3 attacks each (4 if you include the pistol shots). And they have a Super Feel No Pain. And not only is this FnP very rare in this new version of the game, but it is better because you always get it (regardless of the strength of the attack), and you also get it against Mortal Wounds (and Mortal Wounds usually bypass ALL saves.). And all of this is before you add in auras from supporting characters. In other words, they have a really good chance of killing stuff without any additional support. Brosef, I don't know what it is you want. Like I said, I see these rules, and I look over the new game mechanics, and I say "wow, Blood Angels are really strong". I don't know what it is you are seeing. I don't know how many games of 8th edition you have played. Maybe you have played 100 games of the new edition, and you used DC every single time and they get evaporated. And if so, I'm sorry. However, I am going to go on a limb that you haven't played that many matches of the new edition, if any. I am going to say to you this: try your Blood Angels out using the new rules before you wallow in your sea of disappointment. Seriously. I'm going to guess that it is going to take like 10 or 15 matches with the new rules fore you can say definitively that they have been "nerfed" or "hosed". I say this because it was a long time of using my Dwarfs in Age of Sigmar before I figured out "whoa, they are pretty strong". Until that time, I was a sad panda. So please, just slow your roll brochacho. Don't set yourself up with a self-fulfilling prophecy of sadness. Or do. It's your choice dude.

Sure, they had a FnP before. However, FnP is gone. No Mas. Finito. And so having a 6+ to ignore wounds, including Mortal Wounds is great. It is also very rare. WS is gone. They always hit on a 3. Which is more than they hit before. Jump packs are really good now. First they allow a unit to "deep strike" without scatter. Which is great. Since they aren't deployed, you are more likely to have first turn, since the player who deploys first gets first turn. They get the FLY keyword, so they can charge Fliers. Like Helldrakes. Units with the FLY keyword can fall back and still shoot. So they are really, really mobile. You can charge out of deep strike. Yeah. You read that right. You can also charge out of Rhinos. Yup. And They Shall Know No Fear makes the morale phase less of a concern. Seriously, Blood Angels are awesome. You say you want fast, hard strikes, right into the face of your opponent. And you got it. That is what they do. They strike fast. They strike hard. I'm not trying to be a dick, but what else do you want?

Well, they have way more weapons options, access to Sanguinary Priest which gives them an additional 1 S, and they access to jump packs (which gives them the FLY keyword, and super deployment, which is huge), and on a 6 they ignore wounds. I think they are pretty solid.

You did the thing. You are awesome for doing the thing.

I don't know. I think Blood Angels are still really awesome without the named characters. In fact I'm planning on doing a BA army for the new edition. :D

My Skitarii are at 7.

Trumbo. Absolutely outstanding.

Hell yeah! I actually picked up some resin bases for my Knights in preparation for the new edition.

I'm really happy with the power level system. I have always hated sitting down with a calculator and pricing out each doodad in my army. :D

I am sending GW the question via Twitter in hopes of an answer.

I understand. I am stating that it would appear that is not how it is being used in the twitch live streamed games being played at Warhammer World.

This sounds pretty awesome. However, I don't have any zombies in my collection.

I plan on being in the shop on Saturday. I hope to see you all there. :D

I don't think that is correct. The Warhammer TV games being played on Twitch don't seem to follow that interpretation. It seems like you just get to fire all of your weapons regardless of range.

Le sigh. I understood your reasoning. And yes, it did matter. And yes, I still disagree. Please do not attempt to define my thought processes for me. 1.) Prohibiting an entire faction sets a bad example. If Imperial Knights are prohibited, why not Eldar? Tau? 2.) Leveraging 7th reasoning in 8th is not.... wise. 8th is a very different game, and we haven't fully tested the rules yet. And while you may have gotten your hands on the rules, it doesn't mean that everyone else has. Making event decisions based upon what you were able to glean off of Reddit before general circulation is not the best policy IMHO. 3.) I never said you were attacking me. I asked questions and stated what I thought. "Cool" is subjective. In case you didn't notice, a lot of people in the world don't think toy soldiers are "cool". You were the one being aggro first. And I stand by my statement. 4.) Tournaments. I dislike them. A lot. However, they have a purpose in 40K. To best all of your opponents using all the tools in your tool box. That's it. They is no narrative. There is no lore. There isn't an overarching storyline to be shared with the world. There is a win/loss ratio and a leaderboard. And if that is how you are going to roll, then why remove a faction as a whole? It's like having the NBA finals and prohibiting centers over 6'7. "Well the NBA finals is just a friendly match." No. It is not. There is a trophy. There is a losers bracket. If you want it to be friendly, then host open play, a mini-campaign, or a story based battle. But a tournament is none of these. Thus, I will continue to respectfully disagree.

I know that it is very unlikely that I will be using points in lieu of power levels in the new edition. I disliked list building before, and having fixed unit values is delightful to me.

I know you explained your reasoning. However, I do not agree. Just because you have a reason behind your decision, it does not make your decision objectively correct. It just means you have made a decision. You explained the reasons behind your decision. I have listened to your reasons, and decided for myself that from my point of view, they are not good reasons, and therefore decided that I think you were incorrect in your decision making. And so all that is left is that we respectfully disagree.

Nope. Still uncool.

So I don't really understand the idea here LH. So your idea is to prohibit the use of models and units based on points value? So if I brought my Imperial Knight to play at your thing I would be turned away? That doesn't seem very cool. I mean people spend a lot of money to buy models; and then they work really hard getting them painted. So to just say "Nah. I don't like that army so it is prohibited" is not cool IMHO. I mean like it or not, they are part of the game. They are a valid faction. And people (myself included) have spent hundreds of dollars building said armies. I mean, I don't like FW stuff because it is usually broken as hell, but that doesn't mean I am going to tell people that they can't use those models. Are you prohibiting Riptides, Wraithknights, Blood Thirsters, etc. as well? How about Harlequins? They have a faction wide 4++. That completely nullifies the rend mechanic that is so integral to the game. Where is the line of demarcation? especially for a rules set that hasn't been released yet.

So when I say the new Land Raider rules, I was pleased. So, what is it about how you use Land Raiders that makes them now worse using the new rules?

What army am I going with? I suppose I am going to keep working on my DIY Chapter of Space Marines. I have been working on their lore for a little bit, and slowly getting better at painting. I think I am at a point where I can just modify units with new kits and replace poorly painted models with better ones. However, with the Primaris Marines coming out I am down. Part of my would like to do some kind of successor chapter for either Blood Angels or Dark Angels with them.