Chaos Releases

[pretre]

[Lord Hanaur]

Helbrutes are pretty unpopular.  This is an interesting kit release.

[andozane]

Interesting will be if this codex has new rules for them making them viable...

[WestRider]

Given GW's general fail on Assault Units in this edition so far, and the fact that it's a Khornate supplement, I kind of doubt it's really going to make Hellbrutes awesome. I think they just wanted to be able to take that 2nd Ed Dreadnought kit off their webstore as much as anything. Pretty sure that was the oldest Model still in production (Special Characters aside).

 

I'm also pretty sure that GW's Dev Team don't actually understand that the Hellbrute sucks.

[Brother Glacius]

I do miss my CSM army. Wasn't very good, but damn it looked cool.

[Guest]

Given GW's general fail on Assault Units in this edition so far, and the fact that it's a Khornate supplement, I kind of doubt it's really going to make Hellbrutes awesome. I think they just wanted to be able to take that 2nd Ed Dreadnought kit off their webstore as much as anything. Pretty sure that was the oldest Model still in production (Special Characters aside).

 

I'm also pretty sure that GW's Dev Team don't actually understand that the Hellbrute sucks.

The hellbrute isn't so bad for an elites slot from the CSM book. Basically, if designing a long range CSM army, the hellbrute is one of a few options for the elite slot (others are CSM terms with 36" autocannons, chosen with a single heavy weapon, or noise marines with overpriced blast masters). In terms of cost for a long range shooty force, the hellbrute is very cheap for the elites slot.

 

I very much agree that it is rather a lackluster option for the codex, but it does have a role, should you want it filled by that FOC slot.

 

Honestly, it shouldn't exist in the CSM. The idea of a venerated chaos space marine that has NOT been given enough gifts from the gods, but is valuable enough to build a combat grade "wheel chair" is just laughable. The Daemon Prince is really the CSM equivalent of a Dreadnought.

-Pax

[WestRider]

Have you even read the fluff on Hellbrutes? They're not venerated. They're not great heroes. They're a dumping ground for casualties who are beyond patching back together with Bionics, but don't actually manage to die. They hate being in there, everyone else is terrified of them. Don't be misled by the fact that they're built on the same tech, the intent is very different. And I wish the Rules better represented that.

 

The problem with the argument that it "isn't so bad for an elites slot from the CSM book" is that you're setting the bar ridiculously low there. None of them get better than "mediocre". Dreads in general are really fragile these days, and the unpredictability of the CSM ones when damaged makes them even worse. The only real place for them is if you're trying to spam AV12-13, taking them along with maxed out Daemon Engines or Predators for Target Saturation. In a shooty list that's not based on HS Vehicles, Chosen or Noise Marines will be a better fit from Elites.

[InfestedKerrigan]

[WestRider]

I call BS. They're not taking advantage of the re-release to jack the price on the bikers ;)

 

More seriously, tho, that does seem like an odd list. A couple of those kits aren't even two years old, and only the Hellbrute is currently not in plastic. While the Chosen (no specific Models outside of DV) and Havocs (still stuck in Finecast) that were rumoured aren't there.

[dashneeb]

The Hellbrute is fine.  I'm surprised people say it sucks, since Dreds in the SM codex supposedly haven't been viable unless you're a Grey Knights player.  

 

If you consider the Hellbrute to only be an assault option, you're limiting yourself.

[Lord Hanaur]

It doesn't suck. Just unpopular and thus a surprising choice. I am really fond of the model but in game it kinda gets wrecked a little faster than I'd like.

[Guest]

Have you even read the fluff on Hellbrutes? They're not venerated. They're not great heroes. They're a dumping ground for casualties who are beyond patching back together with Bionics, but don't actually manage to die. They hate being in there, everyone else is terrified of them. Don't be misled by the fact that they're built on the same tech, the intent is very different. And I wish the Rules better represented that.

 

The problem with the argument that it "isn't so bad for an elites slot from the CSM book" is that you're setting the bar ridiculously low there. None of them get better than "mediocre". Dreads in general are really fragile these days, and the unpredictability of the CSM ones when damaged makes them even worse. The only real place for them is if you're trying to spam AV12-13, taking them along with maxed out Daemon Engines or Predators for Target Saturation. In a shooty list that's not based on HS Vehicles, Chosen or Noise Marines will be a better fit from Elites.

I haven't read the fluff, so perhaps I should.

 

I do think elites is a valuable argument. Elites are non-scoring in all standard missions. As objectives can't be put on buildings, elites like hell brutes are a pretty solid unit for a skyshield or on the battlements of a building (walkers can be on ruins that look sturdy enough to support them, SA has battlements as ruins). With a heavy, hq, troop, or fast slot, I'd be tempted in some missions to not have them occupy the building/skyshield as I'd want them on the objective.

 

Also, I haven't found AV12 to be all that weak in this edition, especially if at long range (42-48") and with cover/invulnerable saves. Yeah, running them as the army's solo vehicle isn't a good plan, but that hasn't changed since 5th. I completely agree that playing dreads at closer range will get them killed far too easily.

 

I do think that the lack of pod/SR access does not reflect in the cost of the hellbrute. They should have a pretty major downgrade in costs for their shorter range weapon options given their lack of delivery options. Even access to a GK power like the summoning would really balance these out.

 

I also think that all the CSM walkers need access to the really cool CSM vehicle upgrades.

-Pax

[Lord Hanaur]

Well I'd like to point out that in Black Legion armies you can roll off to use the Alter of War missions.  and one of the Alter of War missions makes elites important!

 

I'm a REALLY big fan of some of those missions.  I am SO praying that OFCC takes some of those and tries to use them or modify them.  I have enjoyed all three Alter of War Missions in the Black Legion codex and the games were WAY closer than some I normally play.

 

In one, you have to table the enemy or lose.  seems brutal.  You get to surround your opponent.  And thats bad for them.  You get unlimited forces (using a modified "without Number" type mechanic).  And thats bad for them.  Seems hard right?  But then the catch is, Defender armies can use reserves to essentially avoid the gauntlet and of course you cant charge in turn 1 when you go first anyways.  So you end up with furious fighting all over the place and careful use of and guarding of terrain becomes an important aspect of the mission so you cant just unleash your forces mindlessly forward even despite that you would want to for rear the enemy will come in an unguarded sector and out of your reach (especially since you cant assault the round you come on).

 

Its pretty engaging.  As the Black Legion, your mission of annihilation will be fun even if you lose.  As the defender, you'll be quite proud of your cleverness as you manage to keep boots on the ground and force the enemy to respond to "trouble areas" or decoy them.  Fun.

 

Anyways, the Elites thing reminded me that the mission does make elites important.so maybe more Alter of War missions are coming.  

[pretre]

[Chaos Lord Chris]

My hype is in the negatives, I'm suffering a hype deficiency. My wallet is becoming swollen from all the money I'm not being inspired to spend.

[pretre]

[Guest]

My hype is in the negatives, I'm suffering a hype deficiency. My wallet is becoming swollen from all the money I'm not being inspired to spend.

I was considering some CSM, but with this new price hike, it's a push to persue a different army. I think that GW has lost touch is more apparent with the more releases they pump out. They lost touch a long while ago, but when they rapidly release things that we don't really want, it's just fail on their end.

 

In no particular order, we need:

 

Codex IG

Codex Sisters (or an officially drop of the army, none of this in limbo crap - fully support them or kill our hopes and make it clear)

Codex Orks

Codex Dark Eldar

Codex Blood Angels (Just like sisters, they need a current and physical codex that is hardbound, or they need to be dropped)

Codex Space Wolves

Codex Necrons (even just a reprint with the FAQ included and a hardbound codex)

Codex Grey Knights

Codex Inquisition (Seriously, no physical rules? They call it a codex, but only those wanting to play digital 40k can use them...)

A Current and physical 40k Rulebook (am I the only one that doesn't like needing several hardbound books to play a single army?).

 

What we don't really care about having until the above is met (or is at least progressed upon):

New dataslates

New supplements

Brand new armies with new a codex

Digital copies of outdated rules

And new models.

 

Yeah, we'll probably purchase some of the new [big bad swear word] you produce, but our opinion of you will continue to sink. Come on GW, get in touch with the players and make the game better. I strongly doubt it would affect sales poorly to release an entire codex, rather than just a dataslate.

 

Presently, to play, say orks. I need their codex, death from the skies if I want to use their flyers, Stronghold assault if I want to use a [big bad swear word] imperial bunker, escalation if I want my stompa, and the BRB, plus potentially an ally codex and an INQ codex pdf, and maybe even a dataslate too. Even as PDFs, that's 5-8 entire documents to sift through in order play a single game. Personally, my cell can only access one at a time, I shouldn't need to bring a tablet or laptop in order to play this game of miniatures. And simple memorization is completely impossible, given the constantly changing rules and rules interpretations...

-Pax

[pretre]

I was considering some CSM, but with this new price hike, it's a push to persue a different army. I think that GW has lost touch is more apparent with the more releases they pump out. They lost touch a long while ago, but when they rapidly release things that we don't really want, it's just fail on their end.

 

a bunch of stuff

 

-Pax

Although I don't disagree with some of your basic premises, you use the word 'WE' quite a bit when you actually mean 'I'.

 

As well, keep in mind that GW is actually releasing all of these dataslates, supplements, etc IN ADDITION to the codex release schedule. I think you'll find that they are more rapidly updating all of the core armies right now than they have done at any point in their history AND they are providing us with new models, rules, dataslates and supplements while they are doing it.

[pretre]

Examples :

 

3rd Edition - 6 Years (1998-2004) (~2 codex per year)
13 Codexes: SM, DE, Necrons, CSM, DA, Orks, Eldar, IG, Tyranids, Tau, DH, WH, CSM3.5
7 Supplements: Assassins, Catachans, SW, Craftworld, EOT, Arma, BA
1 Expansions: Cityfight
25 'Data slates': 11 different army lists and 14 different optional units/rules.

 

4th Edition - 4 Years (2004-2008) (~2.5 codex per year)

10 Codexes: SM, Tyranids, BT, Tau, Eldar, DA, BA, CSM, CD, Orks

1 Supplements: Catachans

Supplements: Cities of Death

 

5th Edition - 4 Years (2008-2012) (~2 codex per year)

9 Codexes - SM, Tyranids, SOB, IG, SW, BA, DE, GK, Nec

5 Expansions: Death Worlds, Spearhead, Battle Missions, Planetary Empries, Planetstrike

 

6th Edition - (2012-Present) (~3.5 codex per year, 5 per year if you count the mini-digi codexes)

7 Codexes: CSM, DA, CD, Tau, Eldar, SM, Tyr

4 questionable (mini/digi) codexes: AS, Inq, LotD, IK

5 Supplements: Raukaan, SoT, BL, Farsight, Iyanden

6 Expansions: Kill Team, Escalation, SHA, Death Worlds, DFTS, CoF

10 Dataslates - Tyr I, Tyr II, Tyr War Vet, Cypher, Reclusiam, Centurion, Eldar GW, Adeptus Astartes SW, Tau FB, Be'Lakor

 

 

6th edition has released almost twice many codexes as any previous edition in the normal time. Even if you exclude Inq, AS, Lotd and IK, they have released 7 codexes in 2 years which is more than any other edition.

[pretre]

As for having to purchase a ton of books, you obviously forget that it has been this way for quite some time. Back in third, you needed stacks of WD depending on what army you were playing, whether you were using TVR, TAR or whatever else. In 5th, books were pretty serious as well, I know at least one of my tournament armies needed C:WH, C:IG and quite a few other bits to make it work.

 

It has always been a rules intensive game. This should be no surprise.

 

As well, I will say it again. People have always clamored for a faster codex release schedule so that books all got updated. We're getting it by at least 1 codex faster per year (at the most pessimistic view of the release schedule). Quitcher bitchin'.

[pretre]

3rd edition, btw, had the following, published in WD and the Chapter Approved compilations:

 

11 Army Lists (equivalent to supplements / mini-digi dexes):

SOB

Necrons (before they had a codex)

BA Death Company

IG Armoured

Feral Orks

Gaunt's ghosts

Armageddon IG

City Fight IG

Kroot Mercs

Tyr Seeding Swarms

Cursed Foundings

 

14 Additional Units / Rules (equivalent to Dataslates / expansions):

Dark Lords of Chaos

GK (pre-DH)

Cult Termies

Night Fighting

Ultramarine SC

Transport Updates

Tyranid Monstrosities

VDR

Trial Assault Rules

Minor Psyker Powers

Deathwatch

Emperor's Champ

Tau Rail Rifles

Mounted Daemonettes

[CaptainA]

As well, I will say it again. People have always clamored for a faster codex release schedule so that books all got updated. We're getting it by at least 1 codex faster per year (at the most pessimistic view of the release schedule). Quitcher bitchin'.

 

This.

[Lord Hanaur]

As for having to purchase a ton of books, you obviously forget that it has been this way for quite some time. Back in third, you needed stacks of WD depending on what army you were playing, whether you were using TVR, TAR or whatever else. In 5th, books were pretty serious as well, I know at least one of my tournament armies needed C:WH, C:IG and quite a few other bits to make it work.

 

It has always been a rules intensive game. This should be no surprise.

 

As well, I will say it again. People have always clamored for a faster codex release schedule so that books all got updated. We're getting it by at least 1 codex faster per year (at the most pessimistic view of the release schedule). Quitcher bitchin'.

 

I dont remember ever owning a white Dwarf in 3rd OR 4th Edition.  Once briefly (SOB codex).  Chapter Approved was simply ignored as the nuisance it was by many.  I never even OWNED Chapter Approved.  Just looked at it or borrowed it.  

 

So not until NOW have we REALLY had to buy much.  You can read the store copy of the codex and get the gist.  Memorizing every word probably isn't necessary (unless you just hate and distrust all opponents).

 

I think it safe to say that this is a comparatively overwhelming pace.  However, I also think, as before, that you can just say "Hey opponent, I dont play X and Y, so plan accordingly".

 

The time this comes up is Tournies.  Sadly, the TO has some decisions to make.  And in the interest of younger players, i think the conservative path is the right one for a while.  

[Aventine]

I dont remember ever owning a white Dwarf in 3rd OR 4th Edition.  Once briefly (SOB codex).  Chapter Approved was simply ignored as the nuisance it was by many.  I never even OWNED Chapter Approved.  Just looked at it or borrowed it.  

 

So not until NOW have we REALLY had to buy much.  You can read the store copy of the codex and get the gist.  Memorizing every word probably isn't necessary (unless you just hate and distrust all opponents).

 

So now you have to buy stuff when then you didn't, when you can still just look over someone elses copy? If you could look at/borrow stuff then, why can't you now? Why can't you just ignore digidexes/supplements/dataslates like you did Chapter Approved? It is still just extra rules, despite the vehicle having changed.

[Guest]

The time this comes up is Tournies.  Sadly, the TO has some decisions to make.  And in the interest of younger players, i think the conservative path is the right one for a while.  

I've found it really difficult to know what the conservitive path is in this edition.

 

Seems like it would be around the area of no allies, no double FOC, no fortifications, no escalation, no super heavies, no dataslates, and no additional rules that don't have copies printed physically by GW (like codex INQ, sisters, BA's update and so forth), no death from skies (including a ban on ork flyers), no WD articles, and so forth. Only stuff allowed would be FAQs from GW, and even those should be suspect as many seem to deviate from intended wording to sell more models. Only book beyond your codex is the BRB. Also, no warlord traits, no mysterious terrain, no mysterious objectives and no random missions.

 

That would the conservative approach in this edition. Maybe a dress code and turn time limit too...

 

A bit of sarcasm, but most of 6th edition 40k seems to be found in a freakish amount of anarchy in the ruleset. Trying to control it is probably a losing battle. It's also really hard on the players that started in 6th, as they design their armies around a lack of people controlling the above rules. Case and point, GG's doing 1850pts for the league with no allies allowed, one of the players asked on the facebook boards if playing with under 1850pts is acceptable because that he doesn't own 1850pts of a single army. 6th edition players see limiting of the 40k content as the issue, while players from 5th or earlier see the lack of control as an huge problem in 6th.

 

Personally, I've mostly adapted to 6th and think the control is a problem more than the lack of control. I would still like to see more codex releases and more GW FAQs, even if it just creates a further lack of control.

-Pax