Smiling Skulls Space Marines

[WestRider]

2 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Each entry is limited to 3 per 2k.

Not quite. It's two up to 1000 Points, 3 up to 2K, 4 up to 3K, and an additional one per extra thousand Points beyond that. Altho that's rarely relevant, since not many places run Matched Play events at greater than 3K Points.

And yes, there are some Units it really hampers, but overall, I think it was an improvement for the Game as a whole.

[Ish]

Not if the Captain decides to field them as two Demi-Squads.

I’m sure if I worked at it, I could come up with all sorts of loopholes and exceptions. That’s still dumb. I shouldn’t have to cheat to field an army that was perfectly legal just because some tournament players decided to whine about “spam.”

[Ish]

Strikes me as an over-correction. A blanket change to the entire game to address problems caused by a few units.

[WestRider]

4 minutes ago, Ish said:

Strikes me as an over-correction. A blanket change to the entire game to address problems caused by a few units.

Probably, but hitting specific Units would have started turning into whack-a-mole, ended up slamming other variants of those Units unreasonably hard because of how one variant performed, or having weird consequences like no restrictions on Lascannon or Missile Launchers, but no more than three HWS in a Guard Army can have Mortars.

On a logistical level, for competitive play, it's better because 8th already has so much weirdness going on that it's too easy to "accidentally" cheat on an Army List. A blanket restriction is much easier to remember and to check than a bunch of one-off restrictions with no logic to them other than "at one point this Unit was too powerful when spammed".

Also, I favour it because I feel like anything that pulls the overall power level of competitive 40K down is a good thing, from where it currently stands. For a little while there, it was pretty close to a situation where in many high level matches, the only roll that really mattered was the one for First Turn.

It's not a good solution, but I think it's the least bad solution reasonably available at the moment.

I would also reinforce what Necrontyr said above: It's really only an issue for relatively high level competitive play. Playing with friends, or even lots of store tournaments, it's perfectly reasonable to ignore that restriction.

[Ish]

You’re probably right, but I’m a 40k fan, I’m required to complain about things. 😁

(I still think a lot of WH40k’s problematic elements would be solved simply by moving the tournament standard to a lower point value.)

[Guest]

How do I make the Chaos Rhino Viable? Or can it not be done? 

It's just really expensive for it's offensive output. And the embarked unit effectively counts against it's point cost until they disembark. And it doesn't benefit from legion traits. 

Or am I just looking at it wrong when I think of it as a transport? Maybe I should see a durable melta gun with good movement for 90-ish points...hmm.

[Guest]

Huh...it's 82 for a basic 5-man CSM squad with a melta gun and 91 for a basic CSM Rhino with Combi-melta. Rhino has the same BS and saves, twice as many wounds, T7, and twice the movement speed. Hmm...yeah, maybe the rhino is a melta gun on tracks in this edition.

[Guest]

Wow...Ebay had an Armorcast Paladin for sale. Unassembled and unpainted. So cool. I bought that. Now I'm more obligated to finish my other two Knight titans....

[Ish]

The Rhino is a mobile bunker against small arms fire... with a Havoc Launcher. That’s all.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Ish said:

The Rhino is a mobile bunker against small arms fire... with a Havoc Launcher. That’s all.

What are you putting in it that justifies the point investment? 80ish points for a havoc launcher seems lacking.

[Ish]

The Rhino is T 7 / W 10 / Sv 3+ and holds up to ten Infantry models; a Bunker is T 8 / W 12 / Sv 3+ and holds up to ten Infantry models... But it cannot move and costs +20 Points more.

The Rhino isn’t meant to be an offensive unit, in and of itself. It’s a light bunker that rolls forward, deposits a squad on or near an Objective, and then acts as a (temporary) terrain piece. You use it more for its physical presence than for its weaponry. Use it for blocking firing lines, choking off movement lanes, nudging away bubble wrap... There’s all sorts of things it can do.

[Guest]

23 hours ago, Ish said:

The Rhino is T 7 / W 10 / Sv 3+ and holds up to ten Infantry models; a Bunker is T 8 / W 12 / Sv 3+ and holds up to ten Infantry models... But it cannot move and costs +20 Points more.

The Rhino isn’t meant to be an offensive unit, in and of itself. It’s a light bunker that rolls forward, deposits a squad on or near an Objective, and then acts as a (temporary) terrain piece. You use it more for its physical presence than for its weaponry. Use it for blocking firing lines, choking off movement lanes, nudging away bubble wrap... There’s all sorts of things it can do.

You understand that they can't shoot out of the rhino anymore, right? And Vehicles don't provide any cover to partially obscured models anymore. And the Rhino isn't really tall enough to fully conceal most CSM stuff (they keep making things taller). And they can't disembark after the rhino moves in the same movement phase. And the Rhino itself isn't objective secured.

Additionally, it becomes a cost thing. I put 10 marines in a rhino and I have, bare, a 202pt unit. And that 202pts brings me only a single combi-bolter. Granted, the marines can shoot once they disembark, but until them, they are an expensive upgrade to the cost of the rhino and they add nothing. 

And when comparing costs, you suggested the Havoc Launcher, so 213pts, or 83pts for just the Rhino. Havoc Launcher is a heavy weapon, so BS4+ when moving, or no shooting while advancing. 

Now, if the plan is to disembark turn 1, prior to moving the rhino, then I want the Imperial Bunker (or another building/vehicle, but not the rhino). If I plan to disembark after moving, then it's turn 2+ and I really should look into reserve units like Raptors or terminators. I mean, a bare 10man CSM squad with a bare rhino is paying roughly 18pts per model (11 models). Terminators are 37pts (sword+bolter) each but have two wounds each, while Raptors are 17pts each. 

So, yeah, I don't think this is worth it. But it could be one of those things that only looks bad on paper. I'll test it some. I haven't used many transports since, well, a few editions ago.

Regarding the melta tank, it's 91pts for a rhino with a combi-melta. It's 80pts just for a 5-man CSM squad with a single melta gun, and the rhino is much more durable and has more speed (and it can advance and fire with a melta gun, unlike the havoc launcher). Still looks bad on paper, wish we could take two combi-meltas...

[Ish]

It's never going to be a standout performer. It's a battle taxi. You use it because a squad of Chaos Marines can't move 12" to get from their deployed position to the midfield objective... and once it drops them off, you find some other use for it. Wedging itself between two buildings to block the enemy's movement for a turn or two isn't a glorious use, but its can be a useful delaying tactic. Running it into the squad of chaff Imperial Guard Conscripts that are "bubble wrapping" the Command Squad, forcing them out of position so your Berserkers can charge in... Again, an inglorious job, but a useful one. Things like that. 

Can you build a competitive WH40k force without Rhinos? Of course you can. But that doesn't mean the Rhino is without use.
 

(Also, this seems like a good time to make an aside where I bring up my pet theory that WH40k in its current scope is played on tables that are too damn small. If you had to cover 36" of ground before you got to the midfield Objective(s) instead of 12", then Dedicated Transports would see their utility shoot through the roof. Look at games like Epic 40,000, Team Yankee, or Flames of War. You'll be hard-pressed to find players that don't bring some sort of APC / IFV for their infantry.) 

[VonVilkee]

It is tough to force bubble wrap out of the way this edition... you are not forced to pile in so the rhino actually needs to kill things... also most terrain doesn't even slow down infantry so most of the great tactics from the past do not work in this rule set.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Ish said:

(Also, this seems like a good time to make an aside where I bring up my pet theory that WH40k in its current scope is played on tables that are too damn small. If you had to cover 36" of ground before you got to the midfield Objective(s) instead of 12", then Dedicated Transports would see their utility shoot through the roof. Look at games like Epic 40,000, Team Yankee, or Flames of War. You'll be hard-pressed to find players that don't bring some sort of APC / IFV for their infantry.) 

If I had to cover 36" to reach objectives, I'd stop playing for objectives, and aim for a wipe. In 8e, a wipe means victory regardless of objectives.

CSM just doesn't have the mobility to accomplish that. Even with the Rhino, it moves 12" per turn, 13-18" with advancing. That's 2-3 turns spent moving while under enemy fire. I lack the durability to cross that distance within the point constraints. Rhinos are very easy to destroy, especially if the opponent doesn't have to worry about return fire for 2-3 turns....And that's entire turns moving the rhino, as the embarked unit can't disembark until the following turn.

I mean, there are some elements of the army I could get across, and with certain FW transports it might be obtainable, but the CSM selection on that end is very lacking. I'd be hard pressed to make a viable army that transported CSM troops. And part of that is that our troops are somewhat lackluster, but they have their moments.

SM could do it. Even in the codex, they have twice the transport options, maybe 3x as many. FW too, we just have less options by many times, for no clear reason. SM also have twice the troops choices.

Anyway, I'm not trying to complain here, but you seem to imagine the rhinos being more useful than I think they are in practice, at least in 8e CSM. I like APCs in my forces, but I'm having trouble making them work for this particular incarnation of the rules.

Now, we can use Warptime on a Rhino to move twice in a turn, but due to the limit on one named power per turn, they become the nail that sticks out. Which would be fine if rhino were more durable, but they aren't and can't really be made to be.

1 hour ago, Ish said:

It's never going to be a standout performer. It's a battle taxi. You use it because a squad of Chaos Marines can't move 12" to get from their deployed position to the midfield objective... and once it drops them off, you find some other use for it. Wedging itself between two buildings to block the enemy's movement for a turn or two isn't a glorious use, but its can be a useful delaying tactic. Running it into the squad of chaff Imperial Guard Conscripts that are "bubble wrapping" the Command Squad, forcing them out of position so your Berserkers can charge in... Again, an inglorious job, but a useful one. Things like that. 

Berzerkers are not troops. They are infantry, but not troops for any but a specifically Would Eaters legion. So even if I get Berzerkers there, I'm still not objective secured. And I've lost Berzerkers to hordes of guardsmen.

On the transport alternatives, there are a few legion specific options. None apply to the rhinos, unfortunately.

-We've got the Alpha Legion's stratagem which basically teleports downfield an infantry unit.

-Renegade has the option to Assault after advancing, which does mean that if we can charge in there, basic marines have a pretty solid speed boost (6+d6+2d6 speed due to the assault after advancing, so 9-24" in a single turn with just basic infantry). There is some potential here with this and warptime (12+2d6+2d6 speed, or 16-36" in a single turn).

-Black Legion can transform it's rapid fire weapons into assault weapons when they advance. Doesn't really fix their speed, but reduces the loss of advancing them every turn.

[Guest]

On 10/28/2018 at 3:45 PM, paxmiles said:

-Renegade has the option to Assault after advancing, which does mean that if we can charge in there, basic marines have a pretty solid speed boost (6+d6+2d6 speed due to the assault after advancing, so 9-24" in a single turn with just basic infantry). There is some potential here with this and warptime (12+2d6+2d6 speed, or 16-36" in a single turn).

Quoting myself. I might have to try this. 

3 Chaos bikers in my backfield, Turbo boost auto-advances 6" instead of d6, so with their base move of 14" I can move 20" in the movement phase, another 20" with warptime in the psychic phase, and then charge 2d6" (which can be re-rolled if they take an Icon of Wrath). Potentially a 52" turn 1 charge...yeah, I might have to look into this. That said, the Heldrake can do a 72" charge without special legion traits or even advancing (Base 30" move). Neither unit has very impressive melee options. 

Chaos Biker Lord does have good melee options (relics, the only infantry weapons that do more than 1 damage are relics and power fists). He's index only. Hmm...would need a Biker Sorcerer to ensure that they were eligible for warptime, as warptime only has 3" of range and activates AFTER the first advance, so a Jump sorcerer/prince would risk being short on range if the bikes move at top speed.

Ah, if doing this, could try to get a turn 1 Chaos Boon roll. 52" charge, would need to slay a VEHICLE, CHARACTER, or MONSTER, but that should be possible. D3 damage is as good as it gets for CSM infantry/biker melee weapons (word bearers have a relic, but just them), so with 4 base attacks, potentially 12 damage. Warlord trait for +1 attack, so 15 damage, with max results. Sorcerer could also cast Diabolic Strength, for an extra attack, so 18 max damage. And with mark of Khorne, could pay CP to try melee a second time (if he survives), so potentially 36 damage....Amusing.  

I suppose, if we ditch fluff, could go even further. World Eaters Chaos Lord on Bike with Talisman of Burning Blood (advance and charge via relic) and Power fist. You'd need allies for psychic buffs. As above, but legion trait grants Extra Attack (for a total of 8 attacks). So with two fight phases via command points, 42 potential damage via 1 model...Unlikely, but you could slay an Imperial Knight.

Oh, I suppose if the opponent is IMPERIUM, could gain additional attacks via the Death to the False Emperor special rule. So if they all roll 6s, then potentially 16 attacks per fight phase, so 42 per fight phase and 84 with the stratagem for a second fight phase...

[WestRider]

Going with a larger Unit of Bikers would both increase their melee potential and make it easier to string a couple back to stay in range of the Sorcerer/Daemon Prince on the initial move without limiting your overall threat range. Just a minor point, but worth including in the analysis.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, WestRider said:

Going with a larger Unit of Bikers would both increase their melee potential and make it easier to string a couple back to stay in range of the Sorcerer/Daemon Prince on the initial move without limiting your overall threat range. Just a minor point, but worth including in the analysis.

The thing with the biker unit is that they have crap melee. 1 attack per 27pt biker (2 if they swap their pistol for a chainsword, but they can't have both a chainsword and a pistol). The unit leader has 2 attacks and swap his pistol for a fist, but still can't have more than one weapon. Their bikes have built in combi bolters, but they can't be swapped for melee nor can they be used while advancing. Not being able to "attach" characters to the bike unit really nerfs it's melee potential. And only the champion can take alternate melee weapons...

We could buff them a bit, but it's squad size is capped at 9, so it's limited on what they can really do offensively due to only one of the models in the entire unit being able to take decent melee weapons. The Helldrake is probably the better buy if going this route, and doesn't depend on a legion trait to do so.

I was thinking that most games won't need a 52" charge, so I might be able to get it to work similarly with jump infantry or flying princes.

Could also just ditch the charge and plan on a 40" biker move followed by a shooting phase. I can put 3x meltas/flamers on 3-man bike squad, warptime them 40" (2 advances) and still shoot twice via the slaanesh stratagem (2cp). Don't even need a special legion trait to do that, just the mark of slaanesh. And you don't need to decide to shoot a second time until after you see the results of the first shooting.

[Guest]

Paladin arrived today. Can't tell if it's am illegal cast or not, but looks basically like this: http://mordian7th.blogspot.com/2009/10/imperial-knight-paladin-complete.html 

Mine is in worse condition. Lots of mold lines, the chainsword is bent (can fix with hairdryer or hot water), and some holes need to be filled. Though given the simplicity of assembly, I'm not expecting it to be more work than normal assembly of an imperial knight kit. Looks easy to adjust the pose, too.

Not sure on paint scheme yet. Definitely a renegade knight. I don't plan any heavy conversions, though the guitar strings idea above looks very practical. 

Head reminds me of the early lego Bionics. 

[Ish]

It's been a looong time since I worked with any ArmorCast products (and I never did get any of their Titans), but mold line, bent bits, and air holes were all a common part of their products. Miniature making technology has made some serious advancements during the 25-30 years since ArmorCast was producing licensed stuff for Games Workshop... and they were basically "garage casters" gone pro.

As for conversions, I'd highly recommend you start by magnetizing the head and arms. There's all kinds of neat "knight bitz" you can find on Shapeways and Thingiverse that you might want to pick up in the future, so adding some magnets now will open up that possibility down the line. Aesthetically, I think an old school model like this deserves an old school paintjob, see if you can recreate that orange-red that GW used on everything back in the Second Edition era when this guy was new. Big bold colors, lots of clean black-lining, and checkerboard patterns... Gotta have the checkerboard patterns.

But, its your toy robot. You do you. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Ish said:

It's been a looong time since I worked with any ArmorCast products (and I never did get any of their Titans), but mold line, bent bits, and air holes were all a common part of their products. Miniature making technology has made some serious advancements during the 25-30 years since ArmorCast was producing licensed stuff for Games Workshop... and they were basically "garage casters" gone pro.

As for conversions, I'd highly recommend you start by magnetizing the head and arms. There's all kinds of neat "knight bitz" you can find on Shapeways and Thingiverse that you might want to pick up in the future, so adding some magnets now will open up that possibility down the line. Aesthetically, I think an old school model like this deserves an old school paintjob, see if you can recreate that orange-red that GW used on everything back in the Second Edition era when this guy was new. Big bold colors, lots of clean black-lining, and checkerboard patterns... Gotta have the checkerboard patterns.

But, its your toy robot. You do you. 

Agree with most of your suggestions. I plan to pin, not magnetize. I'll probably leave some of the pins so it can be disassembled for transport. Not sure if I can paint well enough for the paint scheme it deserves. Plan would be a chaos star on one shoulder, the Smiling Skull on the other, Caution Stripes on one leg, and Bible-like verses on the other leg (declaring emperor false, the glory of horus, and so forth). Then red for the main colors. Head is half black, half white, like the paint I was using before. Eyes are Green. 

I've also got an armorcast Reaver, and the plan for painting that is about the same. Though that one's project is getting delayed because I wanted to remove the "axe" bits but I don't really have the proper tools. Need to buy a dremmel. 

[Ish]

You might want to look into getting some of the etched brass Chaos-y bitz like the ones Forge World used to sell (or from the many third-party sellers of similar kits). That will make it much easier to get Chaos Stars, spikey panel trim, and other Chaos gubbins.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Ish said:

You might want to look into getting some of the etched brass Chaos-y bitz like the ones Forge World used to sell (or from the many third-party sellers of similar kits). That will make it much easier to get Chaos Stars, spikey panel trim, and other Chaos gubbins.

Oh, no, I can paint at least a well has those brass etched bits would do. My issue with not having a fully painted army is one of motivation, not competency.  

You were talking about those old model paint jobs, so I was picturing one of those amazing chaos stars all in free hand that you used to see on the old models. Not a chaos star, but this sort of quality at a bare minimum: http://craven-studio.blogspot.com/2013/07/warriors-of-chaos-battle-standard-bearer.html 

[Guest]

Let's see. Paladin. I don't like this model. I know, I bought it, but it's just not a very nice looking model. I feel that the reason that they never mainstream produced it was because they didn't really think it was to par with the other armorcast models. I'm still planning to make mine amazing, but it will have to be amazing in paint and basing. I love how old it is, though.

Other projects:

Ditched the Iron Warriors concept. 3rd or 4th army since getting started this edition. I just can't get into painting this paint scheme. Going back to the Smiling Skulls look. I just like that. Going to try the Renegade Chapter Traits for a bit. Stripped them, now I'm going to go back and re-paint them the same paint scheme, more or less...I also think I'm going to fold my Fallen into the CSM as just more Smiling Skulls. 

Some new models in the works for my CSM. Got a Maulerfiend and a CSM Rhino I'm putting together (with combi-melta). 

Still, slowly working on the Reaver. I've got 3 Renegade Knights slowly being built, and recently I acquired 4x Amriger Warglaives I had intended for another project that I've since ditched. Not sure how I'm going to mix those with my existing CSM. 

At some point I should probably bag up and sell some models from various ditched projects. As is, I have Codex Grey Knights (with datacards) and Codex Deathguard, should anyone want to barter/buy those off me. I'll probably end up ditching the Eldar, too, as I just have too many projects with just the Tyranids and Smiling skulls alone. 

[Guest]

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