Smiling Skulls Space Marines

[SPaceORK]

4 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Thinking about them more, the Soul Grinders really aren't that overpriced. It's more that the rest of the book already does what they do better, and they are a heavy slot.

They really do have a Melee offensive/defensive profile similar to a greater daemon. They are very slow, but can deep strike with a stratagem. They also have a 3+ armor save, which is quite impressive to all but khorne's greater daemons. So I think the idea is that if you want a bloodthrister-like unit but you don't want to run khorne, Soul Grinder is your guy. For Khorne, it's a Discount Bloodthirster that doesn't occupy an HQ slot.

It's also not a psyker, which is both good and bad, depending on your opponent and the rest of your army.

And their profile makes it easy to overlook their weapon options (Warpsword and Warp Claw). Warpsword grants rerolls to hit with all melee attacks, which means their non-degrading WS 4+ hits 75% of the time (making it better than WS3+). Warp Claw effectively doubles how many attacks they have, giving them 10 base attacks (12 with mark of khorne via unstoppable ferocity). And with a Herald nearby they should be wounding everything on 3s or better in melee (base strength 8, Heralds add +1 strength).

So, Soulgrinder should be reasonably effective. They won't be MORE DURABLE than a great unclean one, or MORE MELEE MONSTERY than a Bloodthirster, or SWIFTER than a keeper of secrets, and most certainly not a psyker or a flyer, but they are solidly the middle ground unit in between daemon princes and greater daemons. Not sure if that makes them viable, but that's where they stand and why their cost is what it is.

My thinking is that if the plan is to run Heralds for HQ slots, then the Soulgrinder is viable. But it's probably redundant if you have a greater daemon.

Well... It's a unit that is ok at some things but not really good at anything. And taking units like that (Space Marines come to mind here) generally does not help you kill things or not die.

It a melee unit that is both slow and fragile. If you want a unit like that you might as well take a bloodthirster (which is still overpriced for what it can actually kill that is not a knight)

And you really don't want it for it's shooting cause... Well Bs 4+. Plus there are other units that are cheaper and do as much damage via shooting.

230+ points for a t7, 3+/5++, 14 wound model that has no way to really reroll charges and only 8" of movement isn't really what you want.

So that really only leaves one reason to take em. You think they are cool. With that you don't need to justify their points, you just play them cause you like them.

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, SPaceORK said:

230+ points for a t7, 3+/5++, 14 wound model that has no way to really reroll charges and only 8" of movement isn't really what you want.

Like I said, their profile is misleading. If you want to reroll charges, Take Mark of Khorne and put them in a Khorne Detachment with a character nearby.

If durability is your goal, Mark of Tzeentch gives them at 3+/4++ and Warp Surge (stratagem) can further boost this to a 3+/3++. Or Mark of Nurgle for that 5+ ignoring of mortal/regular wounds and you can still Warp Surge the non-tzeentch one for a 3+/4++.

If you need more speed, put it in a Slaanesh detachment, near a slaanesh character, and give it mark of slaanesh, and then it can Advance and Charge on the same turn. That's a solid 9-13" of movement per turn, plus a change at a charge for an extra 2-12"

And, as an aside regarding move speeds. The move value doesn't affect your charges. So you could just deep strike him in charge range (via a stratagem) and then charge. I agree, he's slow for moving, but he's not the slowest and you don't always need the move value to get places or into melee.

I also agree, the bloodthirster is better. Much better. That said, he's also 105pts more expensive, and in durability terms, has only 2 more wounds. He also has T7 and a 3+/5++. And if you aren't running khorne, the bloodthrister will disrupt your mono-god allegiance, while the Soul Grinder can just match marks.

PS: regarding shooting, ignore that. Those weapons are freebies. That Soulgrinder is paying for it's defensive and melee offensive profile. Start comparing it to other, similar units, that's what's going on with the cost.

[SPaceORK]

I mean, yea? I can give my Space Marines Raven Guard CT and make them more durable. I can make them ultramarines and make them more efficient. But I'm still paying way to many points for something that isn't much more than a distraction at best. 

This also also still applies to the soul grinder. And no, you can't ignore the guns, your still "paying" for those. Just like you pay for a 3+ save, ws 3+ on marines. And you don't want marines in combat or people attacking them.

I know you like the unit, and that's all that matters. Heck your building on from scratch. But don't try to convince yourself that it's even close to the other more efficient choices.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, SPaceORK said:

I know you like the unit, and that's all that matters. Heck your building on from scratch. But don't try to convince yourself that it's even close to the other more efficient choices.

Well, actually, I'm the opposite. I don't really like the unit's rules, I just like my conversion.

But, that said, I do think the unit is fairly priced. And I don't think the ranged weapons are expensive additions. Maybe freebies is too strong, but I don't think it's cost is being being bogged down by it's ranged profile, which as you mentioned, is quite lacking.

Regarding efficiency, that would depend on what your list has/needs. My lists don't need this model, but that doesn't mean it's overpriced. I mentioned already already, there are 2 situations where I think this guy shines: Daemon lists that run heralds for their HQs and lists that need a strong/durable Summon with a power level low enough to summon. Beyond that, he's a discounted bloodthirster that can be for any deity.

 

[Guest]

Gotta get going. Another one of those what's ready army lists... Okay, Iron Warriors 2k for tonight at GG:

 

Iron Warriors (Mark of Tzeentch) 2k

 

Spearhead

Warpsmith (Combi-melta)

Vindicator

Vindicator

Vindicator

Rhino (2 Combi-Bolters)

 

Battalion

Daemon Prince (Axe, Fleshmetal Exoskeleton, Warp Bolter)

Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor (Warlord, Combi-bolter, Chainfist, Eternal Hatred)

Rubric Marines (5, Inferno Bolters, Force Sword, Inferno Pistol)

Chaos Marines (10, Bolters, 2x Autocannons, Fist)

Chaos Marines (10, Bolters, 2x Autocannons, Fist)

Chaos Marines (5, Chainswords, Axe, Combi-Bolter)

 

Super Heavy Auxilary Detachment

Hellforged Cerberus Heavy Destroyer

 

Total 1997pts. 9cp.

[Guest]

Got a game in with the above against Robert's (don't recall his ordo name) Eldar. My first ITC game in a long while, and I certainly lost in ITC points. I think it was probably closer to a draw when we stopped, though my opponent seemed convinced he would win on later turns. Anyway, review of my forces:

Iron Warriors chapter tactics were solid. Denying cover was very useful. I definitely need to re-evaluate my ranged units for this edition, and I've written off a lot of them due to incompatibility with my army playstyle under World Eaters or Black Legion traits. The Iron Warriors Stratagem also proved very useful. I also, really like the mono-faction army, though I may look into some daemonic allies.

Mark of Tzeentch. First time running this mark across the army. I like it. For now, I've only really taken advantage of the invulnerable save stratagem.

Vindicators were offensively worthless. They did absorb a rather ridiculous amount of fire. Turn 1, the entire turn 1, my opponent killed a single vindicator at great effort, depite being both Doomed and Jinxed by the enemy eldar. I had given it the Iron Warrior Stratagem and an invulnerable save via the psychic power, and seemed be rolling an above average number of sixes all game. I also popped smoke turn 1 (I went first, but due to a large central terrain piece, I had no good targets).

Cerberus. First game I've missed with this tank. Ridiculous range, 2+ BS and 4 shots is usually a guaranteed hit. Eldar flyer had a -3 to hit modifier. Not sure if my list should have planned more for lacking BS at the list building stage, but I really should have reconsidered deployment to take advantage of Lord/Prince re-rolls of 1. Anyway, opponent had a lack of good targets to justify, but on the other hand, it took no damage all game. I kinda feel that if the game had continued, he would have started being more impressive, since he finally got his first kill on the turn we ended (turn 3, killed the Wraithlord).

Terminator Chaos Lord. Iffy. Didn't die by the end, but also didn't do much. No clue. I did use the Daemon Shell twice, once dealing 3 mortal wounds to the enemy Avatar, and once missing and taking 1 mortal wound himself. Might benefit from a different HQ. And this one was built as a rank and file chaos terminator anyway, so no loss not being a character.

Daemon prince without wings. On the fence about the lack of wings. Opponent's one flyer had those auto-hitting D flamers, so while I could have charged it with wings, I'm kinda glad I didn't have the wings so I didn't have to debate it. Plus the rest of my army wasn't fast enough to take advantage of increased speed. Maybe I'll magnetize my wings so it's optional. Fleshmetal Exoskeleton was awesome. The Axe was fine. And his psychic powers helped the army. That Warp Bolter was especially effective with the Iron Warrior Legion trait.

Warpsmith, dice were against this model. Rolled double 1s to wound with his 2 melta guns after hitting the enemy flyer with -2 to-hit. Forgot to curse the enemy vehicle at least once, maybe twice.

Marines with Autocannons. Cover denial was awesome, but with so many penalties to hit, they remained iffy. The 10-man unit size limited my cover options due to small terrain pieces on the table. Unit in cover was really solid, and makes me think including a fortification that grants cover could be merited.

Marines with melee weapons. Rode in the rhino with the rubrics. Very useful. I really like the 2 units in one rhino option of 8e. This unit screened other units, and eventually got killed, but they did great for their cost. Might want to tweak the loadout, but I like the role.

Rubrics. Cover denial rubrics are awesome. I loved having the non-HQ psyker too. Solid durability too. I should look into their other build options. Definitely benefited from having a melee unit ride with them in the transport.

Rhino. Solid. I need more rhinos. I think my existing rhinos have all gradually become other vehicles of the same chasis. Lol.

Command points. This army needs more command points. I think I should try for the double battalion rather than the spearhead and battalion.

 

[SPaceORK]

What models do you have available to you for chaos? Or could get easily? 

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, SPaceORK said:

What models do you have available to you for chaos? Or could get easily? 

....Why?

I'm not really having problems with list creation. Lately, I'm just fielding armies with lots of "filler" because my "filler" is easier to transport and ready to go. And then I've also stripped everything a few times, so some of my models aren't seeing use because they are no longer fully assembled or painted.

And that soul grinder, as you can see from the picture, is less than half finished at the assembly stage. I have lots of project like that, which just sort of sit around and "eventually" <He says optimistically> get completed. I won't be fielding that anytime soon.

But sure, I've got basically everything in the CSM codex (except cultists), or at least the ability to create it with a cool conversion without actually buying anything other than glue and hobbyknives. I also have a Cerberus, 2 Renegade Knights and a Reaver Titan. Got some chaos daemons, but mostly bloodthisters - though again, I have the skills and bits to create just about anything in the chaos codex from scratch. Also have a Chaos Bastion, Plasma Obliterator, 2 vengeance batteries, and maybe a skyshield (really haven't seen it in a while, so not sure it I have it or not). Zero renegade Astra Militarum, at this stage.

[SPaceORK]

Well I didn't say you were having problems with list building.

But I wanna see what I can build with a limited pool of models. I have access to most everything in chaos so building with restrictions is a nice chance.

And second, seeing list built from your pool by another person is a cool way to introduce new ideas.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, SPaceORK said:

Well I didn't say you were having problems with list building.

But I wanna see what I can build with a limited pool of models. I have access to most everything in chaos so building with restrictions is a nice chance.

And second, seeing list built from your pool by another person is a cool way to introduce new ideas.

My mistake.

[Guest]

Here's a question. How does a CSM unit reliably destroy a Hemlock Wraithfighter? Came up last game and I'm stumped. It has 12 wounds, I'm at -3 to hit in the shooting phase (-2 if within 12"), and it has autohitting D-flamers for overwatch (it can deal up to 12 damage in overwatch with no armor saves), and it is airborne so we can't charge it without wings or lock in it melee. And the real kicker is that it's only a 210pt model.

That Flakk Missile stratagem would be ideal, but it's only once per phase, so it can't be relied upon to solve this.

So far, the only hard counter I see is that FW Sicarran. Really don't want to have to buy another FW model. Could make one, I suppose, but I'd really rather solve this in-codex.

Not seeing any codex options can do this alone without it being a gamble of success. Yes, I could volume fire it, but not without dedicating much more than 210pts to destroying it. Granted, I don't need to be able to defeat every unit with a equal cost unit, but if the entire army is having fully focus fire to defeat a single opponent worth a tenth of their points, that doesn't work.

And I could also just rely on luck. I'd only need two perfect lascannon shots to defeat it.

Helldrake, maybe?

 

[WestRider]

Heldrake Baleflamer is probably the most efficient option in pure CSM. If you're willing to ally in some Death Guard, they have some really really nasty auto-hitting Weapons that can cover a surprisingly large amount of the table, and more Mortal Wound options as well.

[SPaceORK]

4 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Here's a question. How does a CSM unit reliably destroy a Hemlock Wraithfighter? Came up last game and I'm stumped. It has 12 wounds, I'm at -3 to hit in the shooting phase (-2 if within 12"), and it has autohitting D-flamers for overwatch (it can deal up to 12 damage in overwatch with no armor saves), and it is airborne so we can't charge it without wings or lock in it melee. And the real kicker is that it's only a 210pt model.

That Flakk Missile stratagem would be ideal, but it's only once per phase, so it can't be relied upon to solve this.

So far, the only hard counter I see is that FW Sicarran. Really don't want to have to buy another FW model. Could make one, I suppose, but I'd really rather solve this in-codex.

Not seeing any codex options can do this alone without it being a gamble of success. Yes, I could volume fire it, but not without dedicating much more than 210pts to destroying it. Granted, I don't need to be able to defeat every unit with a equal cost unit, but if the entire army is having fully focus fire to defeat a single opponent worth a tenth of their points, that doesn't work.

And I could also just rely on luck. I'd only need two perfect lascannon shots to defeat it.

Helldrake, maybe?

 

In chaos? That's easy. With just CSM codex that is only slightly harder.

First off though, since the unit is deadly, undercosted and resilient, targeting it with more points than it's worth is not bad target priority.

But the best and simplest answer is demon princes. In thousand sons, Arhiman and his dp homies can smite the flyer of the table in a turn. Plus you get tons if utility in that unit with being able to cast two powers off the princes.

In just CSM, two slaanesh demon princes will absolutely wreck it. Give one the elixar relic and the other give diabolic strength. That's 16 strength 8-9, 2 damage attacks with fly.

[WestRider]

21 minutes ago, SPaceORK said:

In chaos? That's easy. With just CSM codex that is only slightly harder.

First off though, since the unit is deadly, undercosted and resilient, targeting it with more points than it's worth is not bad target priority.

But the best and simplest answer is demon princes. In thousand sons, Arhiman and his dp homies can smite the flyer of the table in a turn. Plus you get tons if utility in that unit with being able to cast two powers off the princes.

In just CSM, two slaanesh demon princes will absolutely wreck it. Give one the elixar relic and the other give diabolic strength. That's 16 strength 8-9, 2 damage attacks with fly.

Oh, wow. I had been totally overestimating their Overwatch capabilities. Having looked up what their guns actually do, yeah, rip 'em down with Daemon Princes.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, SPaceORK said:

In chaos? That's easy. With just CSM codex that is only slightly harder.

First off though, since the unit is deadly, undercosted and resilient, targeting it with more points than it's worth is not bad target priority.

But the best and simplest answer is demon princes. In thousand sons, Arhiman and his dp homies can smite the flyer of the table in a turn. Plus you get tons if utility in that unit with being able to cast two powers off the princes.

In just CSM, two slaanesh demon princes will absolutely wreck it. Give one the elixar relic and the other give diabolic strength. That's 16 strength 8-9, 2 damage attacks with fly.

No thousand sons for me, I'm content with iron warriors.

For CSM, why are they both Slaanesh. I understand the one needs it for the relic, but why the other one?

In anycase, thanks for the reminder about princes. I tend to forget that HQs (other than greater daemons) can be more than just support units.

[SPaceORK]

3 hours ago, paxmiles said:

No thousand sons for me, I'm content with iron warriors.

For CSM, why are they both Slaanesh. I understand the one needs it for the relic, but why the other one?

In anycase, thanks for the reminder about princes. I tend to forget that HQs (other than greater daemons) can be more than just support units.

For the slaanesh cultists and obliterators I guess? Some sweet double tap action?

But yea only one technically need to be slaanesh. But since slaanesh has the best powers and stratagems I just default to slaanesh. Plus you know slaanesh is cool?

So...

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [50 PL, 945pts

Legion:Iron Warriors

+ HQ +

Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 180pts] Malefic talon
. Slaanesh: Diabolic Strength

Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 180pts] Intoxicating Elixir, Malefic talon
. Slaanesh: Delightful Agonies

Sorcerer with Jump Pack [7 PL, 120pts] Bolt pistol, Death Hex, Force sword, Mark of Slaanesh

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 90pts] Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher

Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 90pts] Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher

Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 90pts] Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher

+ Heavy Support +

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts] Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator

++ Patrol Detachment (Chaos - Daemons) [38 PL, 740pts]

+ HQ +

Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage [17 PL, 340pts]

Daemon Prince of Chaos [9 PL, 180pts] Daemonic axe, Khorne, Skullreaver, Wings

Troops

Bloodletters [12 PL, 220pts] 29x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Instrument of Chaos

1685pts

Personally I'm not a fan of iron warriors. I prefer alpha legion cause of the -1 to hit,  deep strike stratgems, color scheme and lore.

Buuuut you like em so, yea.  Also the lack of cultists makes it difficult to grab another battalion to pull of some sweet tricks, plus CSM are trash. But thats what I got to work with... So missile launchers so you can use the flakk strat in the csm units.

The three demon princes are to wreck anything they touch. They are what will win or lose you the game, so keep them safe until you can charge with them.

The bloodletter bomb and bloodthirster are there as distractions. If they kill things, great! If not, your squishy marines and dp's didn't die so great as well.

One unit of oblits to deepstrike and double tap. Should be enough to kill something.

The sorcerers is there simply to be a death hex caddy. Don't want knights with 3++ saves rolling around ruining your day.

The list has 300+ points to work with. Personally I would cram another demon prince in there with more bloodletters (nurglings would be ideal but whatever) to provide more screening and cc prowess.

[Guest]

It's a neat list, but it doesn't work well for Iron Warriors. You are basically ignoring all the selling points of the iron warriors and making a list that does it's own thing. Still a neat list and is probably effective as is, but it would definitely work better for another legion.

I do think it's weird that you'd take slaanesh for all your CSM and then ally in khorne daemons. And taking a Chaos Daemons Daemon Prince for your daemons is another odd choice, unless you just don't like your Legion...

Regarding Death Hex, don't forget about the Chaos Familiar Stratagem. You can just swap for death hex during play, should you end up against a 3++ opponent. There's no need to dedicate a unit as "death hex". Even with the jump pack, you can drop down at the end of the movement phase, swap powers at the start of the psychic phase, and then cast Death Hex.

I will note that the "Delightful Agonies" power has a very similar effect to the IW stratagem. The Psychic power is stronger, but it requires preparation and needs predict where opponents will focus fire. The stratagem is used only after the target takes a wound, so you can wait until after you see if they damage a target to decide if you'll really need it. And I will note that the stratagem is one of the few legion stratagems that isn't restricted to a unit type other than models of the legion (which means it can be used on IW super-heavies).

Regarding Flakk Missile Stratagem, you do understand that any infantry unit with a missile launcher can use it, right? A squad of havocs with 1 missile launcher and 3 other weapons can use it just fine as it only affect a single model's shooting. Additionally, only once per phase, so no point in triplicate missile teams.

I can respect that you don't like Iron Warriors, but if making list suggestions, can you try a bit harder to make a list that benefits from being the army I am?

[Guest]

10 hours ago, SPaceORK said:

plus CSM are trash. But thats what I got to work with...

I didn't really ask you to make a list. You said you wanted to. Please try not to be a dick.

EDIT: I do appreciate the help. Thanks. I just don't like this sort of insult.

[SPaceORK]

10 hours ago, paxmiles said:

I didn't really ask you to make a list. You said you wanted to. Please try not to be a dick.

EDIT: I do appreciate the help. Thanks. I just don't like this sort of insult.

I don't think saying CSM are trash is an insult? Like I only have three ways to describe models; trash, good and op. Power armor in general is overpriced or lacking in some way or both.

Like I can't make a dark eldar army that isn't garbage cause I only own garbage units.

Stating one unit is better than another (albiet in a brash and abrasive way) is not indicative of your ability to make a list. Nor is it saying anything about your model choice.

I wanted to try and make a list with the restraints of your personal preference and models available, but from an alternate point of view... Now I know you really want to optimize the the IW trait and possibly be even more fluffy but still be able to deal with eldar shenanigans. So even now I'm thinking of ways to do that and running the numbers in my head.

Tl;DR: Brodude, you know I'm not insulting you on purpose, or I hope you know that. I'm very cut and dry in my unit/list evaluation and find it difficult to put fluff ahead of rules/model awesomeness.

 

[SPaceORK]

11 hours ago, paxmiles said:

It's a neat list, but it doesn't work well for Iron Warriors. You are basically ignoring all the selling points of the iron warriors and making a list that does it's own thing. Still a neat list and is probably effective as is, but it would definitely work better for another legion.

The reason I'm ignoring the trait is because unless your playing with a ton of terrain it isn't really that strong? It should only come up once or twice in a game? However now that I've thought about it a bit more it's really good against Eldar Rangers. Taking away their +2 cover bonus is excellent. Also camo cloak scouts, nurgle tree oblits, and a few other things.

I do think it's weird that you'd take slaanesh for all your CSM and then ally in khorne daemons. And taking a Chaos Daemons Daemon Prince for your daemons is another odd choice, unless you just don't like your Legion... 

I did this because it's very easy to say something has mark of slaanesh, plus I really like their powers and stratagems. And if your hq's are slaanesh , then everything in that detachment might as well be to benefit from their abilities. But why Khorne? Well i know you have khorne models, the relic axe is great on a demon prince and a bloodletter bomb is a great distraction or good at killing screens. Khorne and Slaanesh together i know is a bit unfluffy but ehh...

Regarding Death Hex, don't forget about the Chaos Familiar Stratagem. You can just swap for death hex during play, should you end up against a 3++ opponent. There's no need to dedicate a unit as "death hex". Even with the jump pack, you can drop down at the end of the movement phase, swap powers at the start of the psychic phase, and then cast Death Hex.

Oh I know about the Familiar strat, but this list or a list similar to it is going to be extremely CP hungry. Also it doesn't have to be a Death Hex caddy, it can be prescience or warptime too. 

I will note that the "Delightful Agonies" power has a very similar effect to the IW stratagem. The Psychic power is stronger, but it requires preparation and needs predict where opponents will focus fire. The stratagem is used only after the target takes a wound, so you can wait until after you see if they damage a target to decide if you'll really need it. And I will note that the stratagem is one of the few legion stratagems that isn't restricted to a unit type other than models of the legion (which means it can be used on IW super-heavies).

Again I build lists with certain stratagems in mind and I will probably blow through 8-12 cp in the first two turns. And while I see your point on being reactionary  vrs  guessing which unit will get shot, a 5+ FNP is way better than a 6+ when your jamming the 5+ FNP unit down their throat.

Regarding Flakk Missile Stratagem, you do understand that any infantry unit with a missile launcher can use it, right? A squad of havocs with 1 missile launcher and 3 other weapons can use it just fine as it only affect a single model's shooting. Additionally, only once per phase, so no point in triplicate missile teams.

Yup, I do understand but line of sight is a thing. Also a single unit with a missile launcher + 3 weapons is way easier to take out than three units with one each (plus they are troops so objective secured?).

I can respect that you don't like Iron Warriors, but if making list suggestions, can you try a bit harder to make a list that benefits from being the army I am?

I like Iron Warriors. I think they are a cool army to see fully painted up. And yes! I totally will. 

Responses in bold. 

I'm going to think on a more IW type list, that still has the ability to get past those sneaky Eldar, while still being able to kill a knight in a turn or kill a 30 man cultist/conscript/boyz squad in a turn.

I suppose I have some questions to see what my options are. Are you opposed to allies? And if your not would you prefer they be fluffy allies or is Slaanesh/Khorne ok?

Is spamming a unit ok (You can have up to 15 demon princes in a list, not that I would do that. I only have 9 so I cant...)? Like are you opposed to 3 havoc squads?

Is fw ok (I realize you would scratch build or kitbash. Dont you have a hellforged scorpios?)?

Do you only have khorne demons? I like demons in a chaos list, and I reallllllly like Nurgle demons.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, SPaceORK said:

Responses in bold. 

I'm going to think on a more IW type list, that still has the ability to get past those sneaky Eldar, while still being able to kill a knight in a turn or kill a 30 man cultist/conscript/boyz squad in a turn.

I suppose I have some questions to see what my options are. Are you opposed to allies? And if your not would you prefer they be fluffy allies or is Slaanesh/Khorne ok?

Is spamming a unit ok (You can have up to 15 demon princes in a list, not that I would do that. I only have 9 so I cant...)? Like are you opposed to 3 havoc squads?

Is fw ok (I realize you would scratch build or kitbash. Dont you have a hellforged scorpios?)?

Do you only have khorne demons? I like demons in a chaos list, and I reallllllly like Nurgle demons.

Let's see. I don't mind daemon allies, but they should synergize with the CSM, not be their own, unrelated thing. I don't mind Fallen allies, either. But not really looking for other CSM allies or traitor guard. Would consider renegade knights.

Not interested in a cheesy min/max list, but I'm not opposed spamming things if it fits right. 

FW is fine. I already have a Hellforged Scorpious, though I've used it a few times and it really isn't worth the high cost (200+pt model)

As for daemons, I don't really even have khorne daemons. I have bloodthirsters (5) and maybe 20 bloodletters and some heralds. I could get more, but at a certain point, it's not an IW list, it's a daemon list with IW allies. I'm making a Iron Warrior list, not a Daemon list. And I'm honestly debating keeping the daemons I have. But sure, for list suggestions, you are welcome to go crazy with daemons in an ally capacity. 

PS: Very interested in Fortifications. Fit the siege theme perfectly. Would love to include a fortification network

[Guest]

9 hours ago, SPaceORK said:

I'm going to think on a more IW type list, that still has the ability to get past those sneaky Eldar, while still being able to kill a knight in a turn or kill a 30 man cultist/conscript/boyz squad in a turn..

The anti-cover isn't amazing, especially with 8e cover only improving armor saves. Lascannons, melta, and plasma don't really benefit from the trait, but it improves the less ap weapons like bolters, autocannons and heavy bolters. And it is especially powerful against units that have improved cover, as you've mentioned above, like with eldar rangers or SM camo scouts. 

The re-rolling wounds against buildings is actually very useful, but it relies on the opponent bringing buildings and those just aren't common in this edition. Too bad...

Another IW strong point (which I often don't utilize) is the Warlord trait. It auto-passes morale for IW within 6". Means that you can afford to take large units of Cultists and not expect them to die in the battleshock phase. 

Finally, the Relic is really useful. It replaces nothing and grants a 2+ save and the ability to heal a wound every turn. The prefered application is making "terminator" daemon princes, but could also be useful if you want one of the lesser HQs in 2+ armor or you are looking to transport a 2+ armor lord in a transport other than a land raider. 

In my recent game against eldar, my daemon price was awesome with a Warp Bolter. BS 2+ was king in that game. I'm thinking contemptors may be the route I need to go if sticking with a codex CSM army. 

[SPaceORK]

I actually really like the scorpious. Bs 3+, 6d3 6/0/2 shots at 48" without needing line of sight. I wrote a list with two in it cause I really like em. I even have your favorite... The warpsmith! He babysits them and heals any injuries.

And yes, the warlord trait is nuts... Best one in the codex with combined with blobs of cultists. But you don't have 120 cultist to really make it shine. Even 40 + tide of traitors would be an excellent screening unit. Also double taping them with the slaanesh strat is no joke either. Do you have cultists? 

In my list building I'm keeping the list at at least 1001 points of IW so it is a majority IW list. 

Gonna run things by my group later today and see what we come up with.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, SPaceORK said:

I actually really like the scorpious. Bs 3+, 6d3 6/0/2 shots at 48" without needing line of sight. I wrote a list with two in it cause I really like em. I even have your favorite... The warpsmith! He babysits them and heals any injuries.

And yes, the warlord trait is nuts... Best one in the codex with combined with blobs of cultists. But you don't have 120 cultist to really make it shine. Even 40 + tide of traitors would be an excellent screening unit. Also double taping them with the slaanesh strat is no joke either. Do you have cultists? 

In my list building I'm keeping the list at at least 1001 points of IW so it is a majority IW list. 

Gonna run things by my group later today and see what we come up with.

I've never been real impressed with cultists, both as opponents nor in my army. I had some models I was using for them and got rid of them. Now I've got a new unit in progress, but it's going to take a bit because I'm using metal techmarine servitors and they often are hard to find in affordable quanities. Pretre has some I'm debating getting, but even with those, I'd be short of a 20-man blob of cultists. In rules, I think the cultists are overpriced for their profile and options.

I have been debating chaos marines at the 20-man level. 

[SPaceORK]

2 hours ago, paxmiles said:

I've never been real impressed with cultists, both as opponents nor in my army. I had some models I was using for them and got rid of them. Now I've got a new unit in progress, but it's going to take a bit because I'm using metal techmarine servitors and they often are hard to find in affordable quanities. Pretre has some I'm debating getting, but even with those, I'd be short of a 20-man blob of cultists. In rules, I think the cultists are overpriced for their profile and options.

I have been debating chaos marines at the 20-man level. 

Umm... Can I ask why you were unimpressed?

I think cultists are the best unit the entire CSM besides demon princes. I'm afraid they are gonna nerf them (they already have once). 

And I may have some more servitors for ya if that's what your using.