Smiling Skulls Space Marines

[InfestedKerrigan]

Welcome to the club!

[Guest]

Figured you'd be happy that I was getting knights.

Thinking that I'll build one as a Dedicated Renegade Knight, and one that's ambigious, so as to be fieldable as either a loyalist or a renegade. 

As for weapons, I have a general idea. I want the Dedicated Renegade with two ranged weapons, probably thermal cannons. I also want the Dedicated Renegade to have that indirect rocket carapace. The Ambigious Knight should have a fist and a Chainsword - Melee is what my AM lack and that's the role he'd be best in a loyalist army,  while Chaos wouldn't mind another melee monster. Unsure about a carapace weapon for the Ambigious knight, but probably the same indirect one. 

That leaves the Rapid Fire Battle Cannons and the Avenger Gatling Cannons for use as bits on other projects. Those seem easier to include with other things than the Thermal cannons do anyway. I just wish I could keep both chainswords for conversions and field a Knight with two fists (two fists would look cool on the knight). 

[Guest]

I'm also thinking that I want to try both Warp Talons and Terminators with Paired Lightning Claws. 

[InfestedKerrigan]

Magnetize if you can. Spend the time. It'll make running duelrenegade easier.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

Magnetize if you can. Spend the time. It'll make running duelrenegade easier.

Used to be a fan of Magnets, not so much anymore. I just tend to lose pieces that aren't glued on....

[Guest]

Hmmm....would be it be one of those "That guy" things to focus on defeating the enemy in the morale phase?

Just looking at the CHAOS leadership reduction options. So with Night Lords Legion Trait, I can reduce the opponent's leadership by up to 3. A Nurgle Icon of Despair can reduce it by 1. Samus (FW Daemon) reduces non-Khorne models by 1 leadership. Zarakynel (FW titanic daemon of slaanesh) reduces enemy units by 2 leadership. The Malefic Lord has a power to reduce leadership for morale by d3. Raptors reduce leadership by 1 for enemies within melee range. The (FW) Renegade Knight Atropos reduces neaby enemy unit leadership by 1. Bel'lakor reduces enemy leadership by 1. 

There is a CSM warlord trait that requires nearby opponents to roll and extra dice for morale and discard the lowest die.

I don't think I can reduce enemy leadership below 1, and it would be hard to get all of these in effect on the same opponent at the same time, but it wouldn't be unrealistic to reduce the enemy by 4 or 5 leadership. So if I zip up and kill three guys in your 10-man tactical squad, and you are already at -4 leadership, that has you testing morale with leadership 4 vs d6+3...even with a re-roll due to ATSKNF, probably going to lose at least a few guys....

Granted, not effective against single model units, but seems like it would be pretty solid against elite units since morale casualities ignore saves and just outright slay models.

[Guest]

Messing around with http://www.mathhammer8thed.com/ 

Thinking about Warp Talons and Chaos Terminators with Lightning claws. 

Warp Talons are 27pts each (15 base, paired lightning claws +12). Sounds high, and it is, but then you remember that the unit has no further options and doesn't really need them. So a unit of 5 warp talons is 135pts, but the "cheaper" raptors are likely more expensive once you factor in their special weapons, champion gear, and/or icon. 

Chaos Terminators with paired lightning claws are 43pts each (31 base, same +12 for paired lightning claws). Chaos terms do have lots of options, but this basic unit of 5 with claws is 215pts.

Statline offense wise, the main difference is that terms have 1 more base attack.

Lightning claws per attack, 1/3 unsaved wounds vs MEQ. Roughly 1/4th of a wound unsaved vs T5-7. Less than 1/7 (but more than 1/8th) unsaved wounds vs T8+. Or rather, I'd need 3 attacks to kill 1 marine, 4 attacks to put a wound on a T7 vehicle, and 8 attacks to deal a single wound to a T8+ vehicle.

So in terms of models, a single Chaos Terminator with paired lightning claws is enough to kill 1 single wound meq oponent in a single fight phase. A warp talon is not enough to reliably slain an enemy marine by themselves (but with a whole squad, they could certainly do it).

To destroy a Rhino (10 wounds) in a single turn I'd need about 40 attacks which is out of reach of both units. The Champion of each does have +1 attack, but still not enough. That said, 10 terminators with a +1 attack bonus (like from Diabolic Strength or the World Eaters Legion Trait) would have 41 attacks, which would be enough to reliably destroy that single rhino.

Against a T8 opponent, I'd need roughly 8 attacks to inflict a single point of damage. So if the target were an imperial knight (24 wounds), I'd need 192 attacks. Huh. So with 30 World Eater Warp Talons (3 units of 10, or 6 units of 5), I'd have 93 attacks on the charge (Squad has 11 base, 10 from paired lightning claws, and another 10 on the charge due to the legion trait), which should result in roughly 12 unsaved wounds. That said, if I were to add even a single point to strength for these models, the damage jumps to 23 wounds unsaved (because it moves from 6s to 5s required to wound). Cost wise, 3 units of 10 warp talons is 810pts, so this is hardly viable, just interesting to think about.

Regarding how to add a single point of strength, that one is easy because warp talons are DAEMONS and so gain +1 strength just for being within aura range of a Herald of their mark. And Heralds are really easy to summon if you have a CHAOS CHARACTER handy, due to the low Power Level on the Heralds. Also makes them very easy to buff with psychic powers, as Warp talons are eligible both for CSM psychic powers and Daemon psychic powers. 

Oh, the other thing to keep in mind is that "Death to the False Emperor" grants bonus attacks for every 6 rolled to hit vs IMPERIUM units in the fight phase, so the more attacks you have, the higher your odds of bonus attacks and the greater potential number of bonus attacks.

[Guest]

Renegade dual weapon mathhammer vs Imperial Knights. I'm assuming max random values and I'm ignoring invulnerable saves (as if the target were subject to the CSM psychic power Death Hex). 

2 rapid battle cannons is 24 shots. 16 hits, 8 wounds, 5.33 unsaved wounds, 16 damage. 

2 Avenger Gatling Cannons is 24 shots. 16 hits, 5.33 wounds, 3.55 unsaved wounds, 7.11 damage.

2 Thermal Cannons is 12 shots, 8 hits, 5.33 wounds, 5.33 unsaved, 32 total damage

 

Carapace Weapons, same parameters.

Ironstorm Missile Pod 6 shots, 4 hits, 1.33 wounds, 0.66 unsaved, 1.33 total damage.

Storm Spear Rocket Pod 3 shots, 2 hits, 1 wound, 0.66 unsaved, 4 total damage. 

Twin Icarus Autocannon 4 shots, 2 hits, 0.66 wounds, 0.33 unsaved, 0.66 total damage

 

Melee weapons, same Parameters

Titanic Feet 12 shots, 8 hits, 4 wounds, 2.66 unsaved,  5.33 total damage

Reaper Chainsword 4 shots, 2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds, 1.481 unsaved, 8.88 total damage

Thunderstrike Gauntlet 4 shots, 2 hits, 1.66 wounds, 1.66 unsaved, 10 total damage. 

 

Hmmm....with the thermal cannons, 32 damage is certainly a lot, but it's also overkill against a knight. Then again, this all assumes max values. I think it does point out that there's really no need for a the Storm Spear Rocket Pod (AT carapace weapon) or the Hull melta gun if already including dual thermal cannons. 

Points wise, Dual Rapid Battle Cannon Knights (and their 3 Stubbers) is 532pts. Dual Avenger Gatling Cannons (with inbuilt 2 heavy flamers and 1 stubber) is 548pts. Dual Thermal Cannons is 476pts. Melee weapons would certainly make it cheaper, but the damage lost is substancial (plus dual weapons is kinda what makes Renegade Knights special). I think there's some irony in that the best Anti-knight loadout is also the cheapest.

I did think it was interesting that the melee damage is so little. It's not terrible, but they really aren't very well equipped to attack enemy knights in melee exclusively. Though with a thermal cannon and either the chainsword or the fist, they should be able defeat an enemy knight in one turn, just not in one phase. Something to keep in mind, I suppose.  

 

While I'm at it:

Bloodthirster of Insensate rage, same parameters

Great Axe of Khorne has 6 shots, 5 hits, 3.33 wounds, 3.33 unsaved, 20 total damage.

 

Bloodthirster of Insensate rage, as before, but with the charge

Great Ax of Khorne has 7 shots, 5.88 hits, 4.81 wounds, 4.81 unsaved, 29.167 total damage.

[Guest]

Just occured to me. The Obliterator weapon profile is basically the same as a battle cannon, 4 shots is pretty close to d6 shots, S6+d3 is about 8, AP -d3 is about -2. D3 damage is D3 damage. Range is very different, but amusing they are so similar. 

[Guest]

Back from 40k hiatus. Started assembly of the Knights.

Not confident I can have the arms pivot after spray paint, so I don't think I can avoid some magnet use.

After noting that the knight has lots of loops that don't attach to anything, I'm thinking it would be awesome to make a "chained down" renegade knight.

[WestRider]

9 hours ago, paxmiles said:

After noting that the knight has lots of loops that don't attach to anything, I'm thinking it would be awesome to make a "chained down" renegade knight.

I think those are supposed to be for securing it in drop ships and such. Maybe also for hooking up rigging/scaffolding when the Sacristans are working on it, too.

That said, having a Chaos/Renegade Knight chained down, or broken free with bits of chain trailing from the loops, could be pretty awesome. There used to be fluff (might still be, I don't recall) about CSM Dreads being chained up, even after the sarcophagus had been removed, because the machine spirits were so violent and aggressive that they could be dangerous even without a pilot. The same thing could very well happen with a Renegade Knight.

[Guest]

More tinkering with the knight kit. Looks like it should be easy enough to have 4 swapable weapon arms without magnets per kit. That's a Thermal Cannon -or- rapid battle cannon, Gatling gun, Fist, Chainsaw. Just need to adjust one of the arm sockets on each so it comes on and off the counterpart arm socket which attaches to the shoulder. I'll get some pictures

So the plan, basically, is two Renegade Knights, one with dual gatling and one with dual thermal, then arm swaps for each so they can have a melee weapons, or a mix.

Did a minor conversion of the thermal cannons so they don't look as odd being wielded on the right and left. 

Also ordered some Warp Talon bits so I can make warp Talons. Warp Talons look really good. Got a few lightning claw terminators built, too. 

[Guest]

Looking again at the rules for the Icon of Vengeance with regards to that stratagem that makes an undedicated unit become dedicated. As I read it, the only restriction is that the icon cannot be "taken" by units with a dedication. That said, once taken, not seeing anything that suggests it would cease functioning if the unit were to become dedicated during the battle. Not sure what value there is in a +1 leadership icon, but not terrible. It is very annoying that cultists can't take the +1 leadership icon...

[Guest]

Finally noticed the Difference between the Reaper Autocannon and the Autocannon. I had been thinking it was like previous editions, where it was just more shots/twin-linked and shorter range, but the Reaper Autocannon also does less damage in this edition. Autocannon is damage 2, reaper autocannon is damage 1. 

[Guest]

Started assembly of the dual thermal Knight. Doing it with removeable weapons and no magnets was surprisingly easy. See pictures:

[Guest]

[InfestedKerrigan]

Step 3 magnets

Step 4 profit!!

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

Step 3 magnets

Step 4 profit!!

Doesn't need them. If you can't tell, from the three pictures, I carved it so I have a locking and unlocking joint. I can swap those arms, or add others. The kits comes with 4 arms that fit in that slot and I have 2 kits. 

Oh, IK, question, what do you think about using the second knight to make a Lord of Skulls, rather than making it a knight...Don't really like the Lord of Skulls kit, but it has some awesome rules. 

[InfestedKerrigan]

I think you should get a Kytan if that's the case. 

Or figure out an appropriate conversion or counts as for the LoS.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

I think you should get a Kytan if that's the case. 

Or figure out an appropriate conversion or counts as for the LoS.

so you think it wouldnt be appropriate to use a knight and a land raider to make a lord of skulls?

[SPaceORK]

That would be much smaller that a LoS... Like 60-75% of the LoS

And bold choice with the double thermal cannon.  I woulda gone with 4d6 battle cannons for everything but horde and twin Gatling cannon for horde.

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, SPaceORK said:

That would be much smaller that a LoS... Like 60-75% of the LoS

did the kit change in size? I've seen a lord of skulls in person. Upper half of a knight mounted on a land raider should actually be a little larger.

[Guest]

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=Zklg5Ofl&id=B6E022D0F16A5E43CDD77E80883D506D46CCE6EB&thid=OIP.Zklg5Ofls86_Civ0ymL6fAEjDW&q=lord+of+skulls+and+imperial+knight&simid=608034003807043596&selectedIndex=0&ajaxhist=0 

[Guest]

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=P4Fn3ZPU&id=F60E8FD40A2E640111E0F4E74D70784A30202F73&thid=OIP.P4Fn3ZPUKmC77aC7uOf_NgHaFj&q="land+raider"+%2b+"imperial+knight"&simid=608036984521689151&selectedIndex=21&ajaxhist=0

[Guest]

3 hours ago, SPaceORK said:

And bold choice with the double thermal cannon.  I woulda gone with 4d6 battle cannons for everything but horde and twin Gatling cannon for horde.

Yeah, it's some sort of weird compusion that I have, where all my armies lean anti-tank and tend to fail against hordes. I think it's a playstyle thing.

And I suppose if it proves too lacking, I have very swapable Dual Avenger Gatling Cannon arms... Besides, I'm saving those Battle Cannon bits for scratch building some defilers.