Smiling Skulls Space Marines

[Guest]

I'm starting to get the hang of my list. 

Entire list requires me to play much more aggressively than I'm used to, which is the larger reason I'm having trouble. I'm getting the hang of it, but it's slow going.

Reoccuring issue with the World Eater Legion Traits has been that the restriction in not taking psykers is crippling because psykers represent the main support units of the CSM. Need to pick another legion, even if I stick to mono-Khorne. I did hear a claim that the World Eater's wording allows me to take unmarked psykers, but that seems extremely unfluffy even if it is legit. 

Daemon Codex changed a lot of things and the updated Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage is now viable in assault (still crappy durability, still really expensive, but now he is scary in melee against anything). On the fence with bloodletters, just an unwieldy unit. 

Warp Talons are crap. There is a synergy potential between a Khorne Daemon detachment locus and these guys, it requires deepstriking them near eachother and then charging, but I haven't been able to get it off.

Decimator is fail, not because his weapons are lacking, but because this army needs to advance forward and get to point blank, so him staying back works against the army tactics. Same issue with the Scorpius. Both present great shooting, but they hinder the army because the rest of the army is hindered by them hanging back.

Hellwright needs to be replaced. Just doesn't add enough to the army to justify his cost or to take advantage of legion traits. Additionally, he doesn't repair anything nearly as quickly as the enemy damages it. 

Vindicators are great, but the linebreaker bombardment stratagem has proven to create issues with deployment. Since I can't move over them with most of my units, they tend to bottleneck my forces if I try to keep them within 6" of eachother. As an amusing side note, I have been charging with these in almost every game. They don't do anything, not really, but it has been really fun and I do sometimes tie up enemy units and it's definitely the Khorne thing to do. 

Knight works okay, but the enemy really tends to focus fire on them and their saves kinda suck. I think this just means that the rest of the army doesn't pull it's weight.

[WestRider]

It took me a while to get used to the change when I started playing faster, more aggressive Armies, too. There's a difference between seeing the numbers on the page and understanding what that actually means on the tabletop.

The FAQ shut down the loophole allowing Sorcerers in a World Eaters Detachment. The Errata added a bit specifically prohibiting Psykers from taking the World Eaters Legion Keyword.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, WestRider said:

It took me a while to get used to the change when I started playing faster, more aggressive Armies, too. There's a difference between seeing the numbers on the page and understanding what that actually means on the tabletop.

The FAQ shut down the loophole allowing Sorcerers in a World Eaters Detachment. The Errata added a bit specifically prohibiting Psykers from taking the World Eaters Legion Keyword.

FAQ huh? Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah, playing aggressively is tough. And these World Eaters Legion Traits impair the army, instead of helping it. 

[WestRider]

34 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

And these World Eaters Legion Traits impair the army, instead of helping it. 

I'm not really seeing how extra Attacks on the Charge impair a CC Army.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, WestRider said:

I'm not really seeing how extra Attacks on the Charge impair a CC Army.

Not directly. It impairs us because of what we trade for it.

No psykers (means no Warptime, Diabolic Strength, and so forth). Also means we can't deny the witch with any codex CSM units. 

The World Eater's Stratagem allows a "chance" to deny psychic powers for 1 CP.

The World Eater's Artefact allows a model to Deny the Witch, one power per turn. 

And they even FAQed it so you can't use both the stratagem and the artefact together for better odds of denying 1 power per turn...

 

The artefact and the stratagem only partially offset the loss from the lack of psyker option. So basically we lose stratagems, psykers, and artefacts with no real gain....in exchange SOME of our models have +1 attack on the charge - it's not really a fair trade. And it's especially annoying that the Iconic Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut doesn't get a Legion trait benefit.

Additionaly, the legion trait is easily negated by the opponent charging you....or just not being able to survive long enough to make assault.

 

The Stratagem and Artefact become considerably worse when the opponent has lots of psykers, as even with unlimited command points, I can only deny 2 psychic powers turn due to artefacts being 1 per army and the stratagem being once per phase. As a result, world Eaters are significantly vulnerable to psyker spam....

 

We also trade being mono-khorne for berzerkers as troops. That is a good trade, but no better than emperor's children trading being mono slaanesh for noisemarine troops. 

 

Khorne has the much needed Icon of Khone, which allows re-rolling charges, but unfortunately, a good chuck of dedicated melee units are unable to take icons (all the characters, the mutilators, the warptalons, the possessed and the hellbrutes are all unable to take Khorne Icons.)

[WestRider]

If you're really having problems with Psykers, Ally in a Patrol or Outrider Detachment with Karanak and some Flesh Hounds. 3 Denies for 220 Points, or 5 for 310.

As for the rest, that's what Transports and Screening Units are for. It takes a while to get the hang of it, but if that's not the way you want to go, then World Eaters are not for you.

[Guest]

Just now, WestRider said:

If you're really having problems with Psykers, Ally in a Patrol or Outrider Detachment with Karanak and some Flesh Hounds. 3 Denies for 220 Points, or 5 for 310.

As for the rest, that's what Transports and Screening Units are for. It takes a while to get the hang of it, but if that's not the way you want to go, then World Eaters are not for you.

It's not about having problems with psykers. The issue is that all other legions get a useful stratagem and a useful artefact, while World Eaters just get one that attempt to replace their lack of ability to take psykers. It's a bad trade. World Eaters should get 2 stratagems and 2 artefacts, since 1 stratagem and 1 artefact are dedicated to balance the lack of psykers.

A legion Trait of +1 attack on the charge is otherwise balanced with the strength of the other legion traits. 

Anyway, doesn't matter much. I'm on a tangent. My point two posts ago, is just that the legion abilties (including stratagem and artefacts) don't make the army on par with the other CSM legions, so I really should pick another legion...

[WestRider]

Only the Alpha Legion and Emperor's Children are clearly well above the rest when looking at the Legion Trait/Warlord Trait/Relic/Stratagem combos. Maybe Black Legion as well if you factor in Special Characters. All the rest get more or less locked into one specialization or gimmick. The issue is less that the World Eaters are inherently worse than the others, and more that they don't do what you want your Army to do.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, WestRider said:

Only the Alpha Legion and Emperor's Children are clearly well above the rest when looking at the Legion Trait/Warlord Trait/Relic/Stratagem combos. Maybe Black Legion as well if you factor in Special Characters. All the rest get more or less locked into one specialization or gimmick. The issue is less that the World Eaters are inherently worse than the others, and more that they don't do what you want your Army to do.

Emperor's children is not at the top in my book. Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion have the best traits and other legion things. 

Renegades follow those two very closely and would be tied at the top if they had any stratagems or artifacts. 

Then Night Lords, Black Legion and Emperor's Children. 

World Eaters are at the bottom, tied with Word Bearers.

[WestRider]

Iron Warriors have a great Warlord Trait and Relic, but their Legion Trait is one of the worst, and their Stratagem is too reliant on rolling 6s. They're pretty well locked into the "specialization/gimmick" class.

EC Warlord Trait sucks, but their Stratagem and Relic are solid, and their Legion Trait is amazing once you get the hang of it.

[Guest]

Just now, WestRider said:

Iron Warriors have a great Warlord Trait and Relic, but their Legion Trait is one of the worst, and their Stratagem is too reliant on rolling 6s. They're pretty well locked into the "specialization/gimmick" class.

EC Warlord Trait sucks, but their Stratagem and Relic are solid, and their Legion Trait is amazing once you get the hang of it.

Why do you like the EC relic? I think it's crap. I do think the EC stratagem is decent, but it only applies in the Fight phase, only on Infantry, and it requires slaying models so really only has use against weak targets which shouldn't a problem for CSM that swing first anyway.... I think EC has a strong legion trait, but requires getting to assault and that downgrades it's value.

EC is as good as Black Legion (including characters, traits and so forth) and as good as Night Lords (their Legion Trait has really disgusting potential, especially with daemon allies and some of the FW units). The Night Lords Relic Lighning Claws are also very impressive, especially when mounted on a Juggerlord.....

Regarding Iron Warriors, they have a lot going for them. First, they have no list restrictions, nor any abiltiies that only target certain units. Their Stratagem is impressive because it can target any IW units, not just certain types. The relic is very strong and useful. The Legion trait is very awesome, as it effectively grants additional AP for most shooting, and BUILDINGS are really, really nasty to face, and I suspect them dominating the 40k Tourny scene as soon as an players start to realize what they can do (players are really slow to try new things. For example, thunderfire cannons were almost never used until about half way through their codex cycle in 5th).

 

[InfestedKerrigan]

Why doesn't Juggy Lord gain Legion trait?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

Why doesn't Juggy Lord gain Legion trait?

Not INFANTRY, BIKER, HELLBRUTE, or Daemon Prince.

[InfestedKerrigan]

Fail.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

Fail.

Totally agree.

[Guest]

On the other hand, not benefiting from the trait does mean that i can mix him with other factions in the same detachment at no penalty to himself (since he's effectively already penalized...)

[Guest]

One of the newbs I was playing with recently pointed out that Possessed are 2 wounds each now. I had overlooked that, and dismissed them for being too expensive. Might give them a shot. They also have easy synergy with the new Chaos Daemon codex. 

[CaptainA]

9 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

One of the newbs I was playing with recently pointed out that Possessed are 2 wounds each now. I had overlooked that, and dismissed them for being too expensive. Might give them a shot. They also have easy synergy with the new Chaos Daemon codex. 

New FAQ out today, all "daemons" in the csm book loose the daemon faction keyword and add it to just keyword. Can't use daemon stratagems on them anymore.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, CaptainA said:

New FAQ out today, all "daemons" in the csm book loose the daemon faction keyword and add it to just keyword. Can't use daemon stratagems on them anymore.

Not what I was talking about. Most of the Daemons in the Chaos codex already had DAEMON as a keyword, not as a faction DAEMON keyword. I guess they typoed on a couple of units in the CSM dex. And FAQ doesn't remove the DAEMON keyword entirely, just moves it to the regular keyword section. So you can't use Denizens of the Warp to deep strike a Lord of Skulls, which is obviously not intended. Wasn't suggesting using the Stratagems with CSM when I was suggesting synergy between the books.

The Synergy is that many of the Chaos Daemons have Auras that affect Khorne Daemon units, which doesn't distinguish between the daemon faction and the regular daemon keyword.

So if I take two detachments, a khorne daemon detachment and a World Eater detachment, units like Warp Talons from the World Eater Detachment can benefit from the Daemon Locus abilty that applies to Khorne Daemons within 6" of a Khorne character from my Khorne daemon detachment. Same with the Greater Daemon shared Leadership aura, or the Herald +1 Strength aura. Several of the Daemon Warlord traits also are auras, as does the Crimson Crown Hellforged Artefact. 

Thanks for pointing out that FAQ though. Looks like they further nerfed my Juggerlord by making him ineligible for the Chaos Boon Stratagem. GW seems really keen on making no one able to enjoy legacy units...

[Guest]

So, in further example, two detachments, one khorne daemons and one khorne CSM. I use Denizens of the Warp to Deep Strike a Bloodthirster. I then take a unit of Warp Talons and Deep Strike next to the bloodthirster. The Warp Talons charge first, using the Khorne Locus of Rage to Re-roll their Charge. The enemy unit(s) are unable to overwatch because Warp Talons deny the enemy the option to overwatch after they deep strike. The Bloodthirster then charges in, having benefited from not dying to overwatch as he's charging units already locked in melee.

Simplistic, but that's the sort of synergy I was suggesting. 

[Guest]

Okay, wow. Need to get/make a Skarbrand model. Now that he can deep strike via Denizens of the Warp, he's amazing. So for those that haven't read, models (friend or foe) within 8" of skarbrand auto-pass morale and are +1 to attack. They also can't fall back unless their leadership is better than 3d6 (player who's unit wishes to fall back rolls the 3d6). 

In a mono god detachment, Skarbrand (and any KHORNE DAEMONS within 6" also re-roll failed charges).

So on the one hand, he makes the enemy better in the fight phase, but unable to fall back even with FLY models is pretty huge. 

Some pretty strong Synergy between Night Lords' legion traits and this guy...

[WestRider]

18 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Why do you like the EC relic? I think it's crap. I do think the EC stratagem is decent, but it only applies in the Fight phase, only on Infantry, and it requires slaying models so really only has use against weak targets which shouldn't a problem for CSM that swing first anyway.... I think EC has a strong legion trait, but requires getting to assault and that downgrades it's value.

The Relic isn't top tier, but it costs 0 Points, has a lot of flexibility (pun intended), and actually has some AP, which many things that can snipe out Characters lack. They also have Noise Marines as Troops, which can give them a solid base of mobile firepower that's very likely to see Combat at some point. The Stratagem isn't for hitting hard targets, it's for letting them shred through tarpits and screens, where a substantial number of your Attacks can be expected to turn into kills.

EC is as good as Black Legion (including characters, traits and so forth) and as good as Night Lords (their Legion Trait has really disgusting potential, especially with daemon allies and some of the FW units). The Night Lords Relic Lighning Claws are also very impressive, especially when mounted on a Juggerlord.....

Black Legion basically just has Abaddon as a standout. He largely makes their Stratagem redundant, their Relic is one-shot, and their Legion/Warlord traits are really unimpressive and narrow in scope. Night Lords aren't bad by any means, but tend to fall into the "overspecialized" pool

Regarding Iron Warriors, they have a lot going for them. First, they have no list restrictions, nor any abiltiies that only target certain units. Their Stratagem is impressive because it can target any IW units, not just certain types. The relic is very strong and useful. The Legion trait is very awesome, as it effectively grants additional AP for most shooting, and BUILDINGS are really, really nasty to face, and I suspect them dominating the 40k Tourny scene as soon as an players start to realize what they can do (players are really slow to try new things. For example, thunderfire cannons were almost never used until about half way through their codex cycle in 5th).

No list restrictions. That's in line with 6 of the 8 options. Not really a standout. The Stratagem can target anything, but it's unlikely to do much for anything, either. You must be playing with a lot more Cover than anyone else I've seen if you're regularly getting value from denying it. Buildings are just deathtraps from what I've seen. I've used Tervigons and Haruspexes and Exocrines, which have a similar defensive profile, and they drop amazingly quickly when someone actually points serious firepower at them. Their Relic and Warlord Trait are awesome, I grant you that, but it's not enough to lift them above average in the ranking of Legions.

Replies in bold.

[SPaceORK]

16 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Okay, wow. Need to get/make a Skarbrand model. Now that he can deep strike via Denizens of the Warp, he's amazing. So for those that haven't read, models (friend or foe) within 8" of skarbrand auto-pass morale and are +1 to attack. They also can't fall back unless their leadership is better than 3d6 (player who's unit wishes to fall back rolls the 3d6). 

In a mono god detachment, Skarbrand (and any KHORNE DAEMONS within 6" also re-roll failed charges).

So on the one hand, he makes the enemy better in the fight phase, but unable to fall back even with FLY models is pretty huge. 

Some pretty strong Synergy between Night Lords' legion traits and this guy...

I thought about Skarbrand as well. He can get 40ish attacks with some stratgems. If he multicharges, with his big base, he can eat one unit and most likely force the other to stay (average ld is 7-8, 3d6 average is 10-11,so good chance there), keeping him safe from shooting. Finish up the unit in combat on their turn, charge again on your turn.

The problem is it's a 9" charge with a reroll, which is nice but hardly reliable. So because you can't guarantee a charge I don't think the 300+ points is worth the risk.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, SPaceORK said:

The problem is it's a 9" charge with a reroll, which is nice but hardly reliable. So because you can't guarantee a charge I don't think the 300+ points is worth the risk.

40k isn't about guarantees. I can't guarantee I won't roll nothing but 1s, but it does happen sometimes and there's nothing to be done. The main thing is that I don't have to footslog skarbrand, which is his main weakpoint over a normal bloodthirster. And his points are +20pts over a bloodthirster, which I've been running, so if I can justify the one....Against enemies that fly, the main issue a CC army faces is that if you don't defeat them in a single turn, they can just leave. Anyway, don't have the model yet.

 

22 hours ago, WestRider said:

Replies in bold.

Makes it hard to quote you like this....

I don't think EC are bad. I just don't think their special rules are top tier. Regarding the relic, 6" of range..and it replaces the amazing Bolt Pistol on a CSM Character (Daemon Shell Stratagem makes CSM bolt pistol characters amazing). EC have a lot of close range abilities, and I'll admit that they are probably better than world eaters, but that's as far as it goes.

Regarding Black Legion, the +1 leadership has it's moments, but I think the overlooked BL strength is that plasma guns and bolters become assault weapons if you advance. Helps terminators, bikers, infantry, plus everything with a plasma or combi-plasma. The BL relic replaces nothing, and deals mortal wounds at unlimited range, but I'm not very impressed by it. The BL stratagem is useful. Abaddon is amazing, too. That said, I don't think they are at the top, just as good as Night Lords or EC. 

Regarding "list restrictions." What I mean is that each of the legions leans players towards a certain kind of army. EC leans towards armies that shoot, but don't charge. BL leans towards Big units of CSM with bolters and plasma guns, plus bikers and terminators. And so forth. Iron Warriors don't really have a lean in their rules, as really any unit can benefit from their stratagem, every character can benefit from their relic, and their trait has function in both shooting and melee, plus they have no deity requirements. Regarding their stratagem, the really strong application is regarding make existing durable units, much more durable. A Mastodon, for example, would become much more disgusting with their stratagem and they can benefit from it. That Lord of skulls would also work. 

Regarding buiildings, been running lots of T8 models myself. There is definitely value in spaming high toughness. The only reason you don't see more buildings in 40k is that they were removed from the standard detachment. If fortifications were 0-1 in every detachment, you'd see them in every list. They are dirt cheap ways to survive turn 1 shooting, and they often last much longer. A 200-ish point bastion has the durability of an Imperial Knight. It's a transport that can hold any infantry (jump, terminators, even tyranids). Transports add 3" to movement when they disembark, plus they make deployment of large armies easier if table space is an issue. Additionally, in this edition, buildings can hold objectives and are otherwise considered models in your army. 

[Guest]

Got another Game in. Faced Chiken's Tyranids. I did win, but it was hard fought, and I think his list was better than mine and it was just a lack of experience with his own list. That's my last game of this Pod, so it's time to decide if I want to alter the list. 4 games with this list, 5th game with some units from this list. 

Option by option review of my force. 

HQ and warlord for the last 4 games: Chaos Hellwright. No invulnerable save, mediocre melee ability, and the repair ability has proven iffy. That said, he has survived just fine and really isn't terrible. He is very expensive. Probably want to swap him out for either something cheaper or some more capable. I will note that I really liked having an INFANTRY warlord, as it has proven very useful in missions and with the abundance of ruins.

Brasscollar chaos artefact on above warlord: Can only deny one power per turn, but causes autoperils to anything successfully denied. So far, denied one power in 5 games (which wasn't a game in our pod). Not worth it, but can't afford to have no psychic defense at the same time...

Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage: Wow. They really fixed this guy over the INDEX version. Definitely can pay for itself. That said, I've failed more charges with this guy than just about any other unit in the army. Probably worth his points...

Armor of Scorn on above bloodthirster: Bumps daemonic save to 4++ and allows denying one power per turn. Definitely helps and can be quite impressive. That said, never denied any powers with this, plus he still dies really quickly to focused shooting. Been paying 1 CP for this. Unclear if worthwhile. 

Vindicators (3): So far, useful in every game. Having duplicated toughness with the Knight has proven very tactically sound, as they really do draw fire from the knight. And their shooting has not proven lacking. Definitely worthwhile. I will note that I stopped using the Linebreaker Bombardment. That has proven lacking over their normal shooting. 

Hellforged Scorpius: It is great to have an indirect weapon. And it defintely kills things. I like having it. But I don't think it kills enough things to justify it's really high price (215pts). Also think it detracts from the army due to being an expensive component that doesn't draw fire or advance. I suspect it would be more impressive if the rest of the army had longer range attacks.  

Decimator with Dual C-Beam Cannons: Same as the Scorpius. I like it, but I'm not sure it advantages THIS army. Super nice to have a 72" range weapon that really hurts the enemy, but it's expensive (150pts) and it detracts from the army's in-your-face approach by sitting back and shooting. 

Bloodletters (15 with Icon and Musician): Exactly as useful as the Bloodthrister. They punch hard, but they die to shooting. Unclear if viable. 

Renegade Knight with dual Thermal Cannons: Tough to evaluate. I like it. It really kills things. But it's 1/4th of the army and it does have situations where it fails. The *only* 36" range has proven lacking in some games. I also found that in melee, it is lacking against other super heavy units - it can still eventually win, but I may want to give serious consideration to a melee arm instead of one of the thermal cannons. I may also want to give it a carapace weapon.

Warp Talons: Just crap. Even with re-rolls to charge, they fail most of the time after deep striking, they lack the wounds or saves for staying power after failing a charge, and they don't have the attacks (even with the world eater's bonus on the charge) to justify their cost. Maybe with psyker support they could work, but not as is. Too bad, too, as I really like the unit's appearance.

World Eaters Legion Trait: So far, a liability more than a benefit. Partially related to really having only a few units that benefit from the trait, while the lack of psykers really hurts. I should switch this out for another, even if I stick with mono khorne (and unmarked). 

Khorne Daemons as a Detachment (as opposed to summoning or in a mixed detachment): I don't think the rerolling charges helped enough for the Bloodthirster. Deep Strike stratagem hasn't proven overly useful, but I like the option. Using the stratagem to buy an extra artefact for the armor of scorn has been moderatly helpful. Not sure if the detachment is worth it like this. Might look into another detachment option (I like the units, but don't know that the detachment benefits me enough). I also dislike having to keep my Fortifications at home because this detachment puts me at the 3 detachment limit.

Additional Thoughts: Army can't get to the backfield fast enough. Deepstrike melee doesn't reliably work for this purpose. Either I need to accept that I can't get to the backfield and find a way to win despite this, or I need to a fast unit or two that can reach the backfield without deep strike (like a helldrake).