Question for Daemon players regarding troops

[Kelharis]

I'm wondering from Daemons players how you are all running your standard troops this edition.  I believe for the most part that people are running other army troop units in minimum number configurations for morale purposes, but Daemon troops get the bonuses for running in 20+ numbers.  Do you all find that running larger numbers is better due to the bonuses?  I feel like the only unit that might not be worth taking it on is Pink Horrors (assault 3 flames vs. assault 2).  With Plaguebearers, enemies are -1 to hit.  Bloodletters get +1 to hit making them a 2+. Daemonettes get +1 attack.

[InfestedKerrigan]

I only have Khorne and I don't play them competitively.  I like Bloodletter Mobs, big and scary. They force a fun target priority issue, and eat face when they connect, especially with a couple heralds around for joy.  I haven't seen the new dex yet, though. 

[peter.cosgrove]

Cheap models/units that can tarpit and screen are, so far as I can see, are more likely being deployed in max model count. Models that can be used for board control, especially on deployment, are generally deployed as small as possible. 5 models on 25mm bases can span 13" and give you a 33" by 19" bubble to prevent deep strike.

 

[Kelharis]

OK, That makes a good amount of sense in terms of choosing unit sizes. 

[Guest]

I also only have khorne. So far, been running a 15-man and have been thinking the unit is too large, rather than too small. Bloodletters lack range and already hit on 3+. They each get +1 attack and +1 Str when they charge (or are charged). On the charge, I have 31 attacks at S5 which have -3 ap and cause 2 damage on wound rolls of 6. So far, 15-man has proved to be overkill.

The other end of it is that Bloodletters have zero staying power. They disappear when shot at by anything. Making the unit larger doesn't really help, just means that they get more shots directed their way. 

Presently, I'm running both the instrument and the Icon, but I think I'll be ditching the icon in the future. Bloodletters lack the staying power to take advantage of the Icon. And it isn't cheap. 

 

[Guest]

Oh, the other end of this is regarding summoning. If I set points aside for reserves and I attempt to summon with a Chaos Character, I don't declare the summoned unit until after I determine what I roll. If I'm a character and I roll high, I may be able to summon a larger unit. Bloodletters have power level 4 at the 10-man, power level 8 at the 20-man, and power level 12 at the 30-man.

So if I summon khorne daemons and I roll a 13, I have the option to summon a 30-man unit of Bloodletters, provided I have the points set aside of course. On the other hand, if I roll lower, I may only have the option summon a smaller unit. 

[Kelharis]

23 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Oh, the other end of this is regarding summoning. If I set points aside for reserves and I attempt to summon with a Chaos Character, I don't declare the summoned unit until after I determine what I roll. If I'm a character and I roll high, I may be able to summon a larger unit. Bloodletters have power level 4 at the 10-man, power level 8 at the 20-man, and power level 12 at the 30-man.

So if I summon khorne daemons and I roll a 13, I have the option to summon a 30-man unit of Bloodletters, provided I have the points set aside of course. On the other hand, if I roll lower, I may only have the option summon a smaller unit. 

I think they actually lay out summoning that way (roll first, then decide what to summon), which certainly makes it more useful.  Speaking of summoning and matched play, I am struggling to find the rule specifics in the Daemon Codex, do you know the page number where that is detailed? I know the daemonic ritual ability is on 85, but it doesn't seem to address matched play.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Kelharis said:

I think they actually lay out summoning that way (roll first, then decide what to summon), which certainly makes it more useful.  Speaking of summoning and matched play, I am struggling to find the rule specifics in the Daemon Codex, do you know the page number where that is detailed? I know the daemonic ritual ability is on 85, but it doesn't seem to address matched play.

Power Level is used for summoning in Matched Play. In matched play, in addition to the summoning roll, you need to pay the reinforcement point cost for the summoned units.

So for matched play, we declare a 2k battle. I decide that I want bring a single Supreme Command Detachment consisting of 5 bloodthirsters (1700pts) and I want to set aside 300pts for reinforcements. That's a 2k list. 

During the game, if I want to summon a unit, my bloodthirster elects to summon instead of moving normally that turn. If I were unmarked, I would need to select a chaos deity (like khorne) before rolling dice. The Bloodthirster is a marked character, so he must summon daemons as per his mark (khorne). I then choose how many dice to roll (1, 2, or 3). Doubles deal a mortal wound to the summoner, triples deal d3. Then I roll. Let's say my total is 18. I can summon any khorne daemon unit (with the Daemonic Ritual ability) that is Power Level 18 or less.

Now, for matched play, I also need to have the reinforcement points set aside for this. So for my example, I rolled high enough to summon another bloodthirster (Power level 18), but I can't summon it because I don't have enough reinforcement points to pay for the summoned unit (I have 300pts to spend on summoned units, bloodthirsters are 340pts). I would have to pick a cheaper unit. Let's say I pick 10 bloodletters (70pts). My reinforcement points are now reduced by the cost of the bloodletters (now I have 230pts for reinforcements).

[Kelharis]

2 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Power Level is used for summoning in Matched Play. In matched play, in addition to the summoning roll, you need to pay the reinforcement point cost for the summoned units.

So for matched play, we declare a 2k battle. I decide that I want bring a single Supreme Command Detachment consisting of 5 bloodthirsters (1700pts) and I want to set aside 300pts for reinforcements. That's a 2k list. 

During the game, if I want to summon a unit, my bloodthirster elects to summon instead of moving normally that turn. If I were unmarked, I would need to select a chaos deity (like khorne) before rolling dice. The Bloodthirster is a marked character, so he must summon daemons as per his mark (khorne). I then choose how many dice to roll (1, 2, or 3). Doubles deal a mortal wound to the summoner, triples deal d3. Then I roll. Let's say my total is 18. I can summon any khorne daemon unit (with the Daemonic Ritual ability) that is Power Level 18 or less.

Now, for matched play, I also need to have the reinforcement points set aside for this. So for my example, I rolled high enough to summon another bloodthirster (Power level 18), but I can't summon it because I don't have enough reinforcement points to pay for the summoned unit (I have 300pts to spend on summoned units, bloodthirsters are 340pts). 

So do you simply set aside points and can then summon any models you currently have that qualify (correct mark and <= PL rolled)? Or do you have to have a list stating what is available? Or is that like a tournament organizer decision? 

[Guest]

Oh, I keep confusing people by refering to reinforcement points as reserve points. Reinforcement Points is the correct one. 

[Kelharis]

I guess my hypothetical is as follows: Say I want to summon Khorne Daemons, and I roll an 8.  I want to bring Bloodletters in.  Does my reinforcement list say 30 bloodletters @7pts per, or does it need to read "unit of 30 bloodletters 210 points", in which case I can't summon 20 of them, because I only have a unit of 30 on my list?

[Guest]

Just now, Kelharis said:

So do you simply set aside points and can then summon any models you currently have that qualify (correct mark and <= PL rolled)? Or do you have to have a list stating what is available? Or is that like a tournament organizer decision? 

Any models. But the downside is that because summoned models aren't part of any detachment or army list, they don't qualify for detachment effects or to gain command points. So a Summoned Bloodthirster won't count an as HQ towards your detachment and won't have the Locus Of Rage (can still benefit from it, just doesn't have it themselves).

A TO may set a cap on Reinforcement points, but I haven't heard of that happening anywhere. 

And the requirements are: the Summoned Unit must have the Daemonic Ritual special ability, the correct mark, </= PL rolled, AND you still have to pay the point cost. 

Additionally, the summoner must be a CHAOS CHARACTER with no mark OR the correct mark. They also must give up their movement phase (which means you can't deep strike and then summon, as well as denying the option for summoned units to further summon).

And note, not every Daemon entry in the Daemon book has the Daemonic Ritual special ability. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Kelharis said:

I guess my hypothetical is as follows: Say I want to summon Khorne Daemons, and I roll an 8.  I want to bring Bloodletters in.  Does my reinforcement list say 30 bloodletters @7pts per, or does it need to read "unit of 30 bloodletters 210 points", in which case I can't summon 20 of them, because I only have a unit of 30 on my list?

Has nothing to do with the list entries. Does require bringing the models you want to summon. 

Though in your example, you can't summon 30 bloodletters because are PL 12 for 30, so you can only summon 20 (PL 8) or 10 (PL 4). 

[Kelharis]

2 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Any models. But the downside is that because summoned models aren't part of any detachment or army list, they don't qualify for detachment effects or to gain command points. So a Summoned Bloodthirster won't count an as HQ towards your detachment and won't have the Locus Of Rage (can still benefit from it, just doesn't have it themselves).

A TO may set a cap on Reinforcement points, but I haven't heard of that happening anywhere. 

And the requirements are: the Summoned Unit must have the Daemonic Ritual special ability, the correct mark, </= PL rolled, AND you still have to pay the point cost. 

Additionally, the summoner must be a CHAOS CHARACTER with no mark OR the correct mark. They also must give up their movement phase (which means you can't deep strike and then summon, as well as denying the option for summoned units to further summon).

And note, not every Daemon entry in the Daemon book has the Daemonic Ritual special ability. 

Got it, so basically the list is "210 points from the magic secret box"

[Guest]

Just now, Kelharis said:

Got it, so basically the list is "210 points from the magic secret box"

Exactly. 

Though beware how many points you set aside. If the opponent kills all your CHAOS CHARACTERS you can't summon anything and the points are wasted. 

[SPaceORK]

Or... Don't use summoning cause it incredibly restrictive. Maybe you roll high enough for something useful? Maybe not. And if ya do summon something it's gotta be more 9" away from the enemy AND 12" inches from the summoner. That's a pretty big area on denial.

Better to just deepstrike a 30 man bloodletter squad. That's like 90+ attacks at 6/-3/1 with 3d6 rerollable charges.

But what are people using for troops? CSM brimstones still have a 4++, so that's cool. Bloodletters, pinks, nurglings, Plaguebearers are all playable.

[SigurdBC]

My Chaos love has always been Nurgle so my troops of choice are of course Plaguebearers. I will probably be picking up the new Chaos Codex this weekend, but even in the Index Plaguebearers were a reliable, tough Troop choice that you could count on lasting quite a bit longer than their other Troop counterparts. They seem to have lost some of their offensive punch in the Index, but holding objectives and not get shot off them easily is what I want my troops to do, so Plaguebearers I CHOOSE YOU!!! Nurglings are another decent option especially if you are in the mood for a sneaky deployment (assuming they still have this in the codex). They are weaker than they previously have been stat wise, but if all you want them to do is run up and be annoying or infiltrate onto an objective you don't want to dedicate a unit to holding, then Nurglings are the little gribblies for you. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, SPaceORK said:

Or... Don't use summoning cause it incredibly restrictive. Maybe you roll high enough for something useful? Maybe not. And if ya do summon something it's gotta be more 9" away from the enemy AND 12" inches from the summoner. That's a pretty big area on denial.

Better to just deepstrike a 30 man bloodletter squad. That's like 90+ attacks at 6/-3/1 with 3d6 rerollable charges.

But what are people using for troops? CSM brimstones still have a 4++, so that's cool. Bloodletters, pinks, nurglings, Plaguebearers are all playable.

Remember that deepstriking Bloodletters without summoning them requires a Stratagem (Denizens of the Warp). More so, recall that the stratagem's cost is based on the power level of the deepstriking unit. 30 bloodletters are PL 12, so it's 2 CP to deep strike them. 

Regarding 3d6 rerollable charges, that is not a Bloodletter ability.

The Bloodletter instrument grants them +1" to charges for +10pts.

There is a 2 CP Stratagem (Banner of Blood) which can upgrade an exist Daemonic Icon (+15pts) to grant a 3d6" charge once per battle.

As for re-rolling charges, a Khorne daemon(Faction) Detachment grants rerolls of charges to KHORNE DAEMONS within 6" of a CHARACTER from. So if you also had a khorne daemon character within 6" of the deepstriking bloodletter unit, you could deep strike them.

So it could be done as you say, but the CP cost is very high. Summoning is cheap by comparison.

[SPaceORK]

14 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Remember that deepstriking Bloodletters without summoning them requires a Stratagem (Denizens of the Warp). More so, recall that the stratagem's cost is based on the power level of the deepstriking unit. 30 bloodletters are PL 12, so it's 2 CP to deep strike them. 

Regarding 3d6 rerollable charges, that is not a Bloodletter ability.

The Bloodletter instrument grants them +1" to charges for +10pts.

There is a 2 CP Stratagem (Banner of Blood) which can upgrade an exist Daemonic Icon (+15pts) to grant a 3d6" charge once per battle.

As for re-rolling charges, a Khorne daemon(Faction) Detachment grants rerolls of charges to KHORNE DAEMONS within 6" of a CHARACTER from. So if you also had a khorne daemon character within 6" of the deepstriking bloodletter unit, you could deep strike them.

So it could be done as you say, but the CP cost is very high. Summoning is cheap by comparison.

Yes... I know this. But just because it takes 3cp to almost guarantee 30 bloodletters are deep in the soft underbelly of the opposing army vrs getting shot to pieces by summoning them, that 3cp seems like a better use of resources.

Plaguebearers seem solid. 5++/5+++ and a -1 to hit with units 20+. With a little support Plaguebearers can hit like a truck and move quickly for Nurgle (7' move, 2dmg, rerolls, etc). I love em!

Nurglings are awesome simply for the disruption and cheap cost. They deploy up to 9" away from the enemy deployment zone, not enemy models. With the new hq targeting rules this means you can hide them deep in the enemies zone out of line of site and keep your hq's safe.

Brimstones from the demon codex are ok. 6++ and 3 points makes them the cheapest option for troops. But that's about all they have. The CSM brimstones still have a 4++ save at 3points so until they get FAQ-ed they are better.

Pinks are ok. In groups if 20+ they have assault 3 guns which can be very nice. 

Blues are... Well pinks shoot and brims are 3pnts so blues being melee in a shooting flaming army is just kinda meh.

Demonettes are just ok as well. Bloodletters seem to be better at what demonettes are supposed to do.

So for a semi competitive environment, bloodletters deepstriking, nurglings hiding and disrupting, Plaguebearers hording up and being hard to remove, and brims being dirt cheap seem to be the way to go.

[WestRider]

17 hours ago, SigurdBC said:

My Chaos love has always been Nurgle so my troops of choice are of course Plaguebearers. I will probably be picking up the new Chaos Codex this weekend, but even in the Index Plaguebearers were a reliable, tough Troop choice that you could count on lasting quite a bit longer than their other Troop counterparts. They seem to have lost some of their offensive punch in the Index, but holding objectives and not get shot off them easily is what I want my troops to do, so Plaguebearers I CHOOSE YOU!!! Nurglings are another decent option especially if you are in the mood for a sneaky deployment (assuming they still have this in the codex). They are weaker than they previously have been stat wise, but if all you want them to do is run up and be annoying or infiltrate onto an objective you don't want to dedicate a unit to holding, then Nurglings are the little gribblies for you. 

Nurglings do still have an Infiltration-style ability. It's a particularly cool one because it takes place during their normal Deployment, rather than right before the Game starts like many of them. That means you can get them out there in your enemy's way before they can put down Alpha Legion/Raven Guard Infiltrators and such. Very handy.

And yeah, Plaguebearers do a pretty good job of standing on Objectives and not dying.

[Guest]

19 hours ago, SPaceORK said:

Yes... I know this. But just because it takes 3cp to almost guarantee 30 bloodletters are deep in the soft underbelly of the opposing army vrs getting shot to pieces by summoning them, that 3cp seems like a better use of resources.

 

What you describe is actually 4 CP: 30 bloodletters is 2 CP to deep strike and upgrading the icon for a 3d6" charge is another 2 CP. 

So far, running 15-man bloodletters, the main issue is that they don't withstand shooting (regular shooting or strong overwatch). They usually get one good charge, once per game, and then die to shooting after wiping out what they charge. Bolters just liquify this unit. The secondary issue I face is that the bloodletters nevery have anything to charge that is worth charging because the opponent doesn't grant them the option. I've kill maybe 100pts worth of enemy models per game, for 3 games straight. Doesn't matter if they deep strike or footslog, they just can't seem to get into melee with anything worth attacking.

I'm thinking that summoning maybe the smart route for bloodletters, and I should look into the non-troop mandatory detachments to meet my Khorne Daemon Detachement need.  Really wish khorne had a nurgling equivelent - like a cheaper troop unit. 

[InfestedKerrigan]

20 hours ago, SPaceORK said:

Plaguebearers seem solid. 5++/5+++ and a -1 to hit with units 20+. With a little support Plaguebearers can hit like a truck and move quickly for Nurgle (7' move, 2dmg, rerolls, etc). I love em!

I'm watching you move, like a hawk, every game from now on.

[SPaceORK]

21 hours ago, paxmiles said:

What you describe is actually 4 CP: 30 bloodletters is 2 CP to deep strike and upgrading the icon for a 3d6" charge is another 2 CP. 

So far, running 15-man bloodletters, the main issue is that they don't withstand shooting (regular shooting or strong overwatch). They usually get one good charge, once per game, and then die to shooting after wiping out what they charge. Bolters just liquify this unit. The secondary issue I face is that the bloodletters nevery have anything to charge that is worth charging because the opponent doesn't grant them the option. I've kill maybe 100pts worth of enemy models per game, for 3 games straight. Doesn't matter if they deep strike or footslog, they just can't seem to get into melee with anything worth attacking.

I'm thinking that summoning maybe the smart route for bloodletters, and I should look into the non-troop mandatory detachments to meet my Khorne Daemon Detachement need.  Really wish khorne had a nurgling equivelent - like a cheaper troop unit. 

I'm pretty sure Banner of Blood says 1 cp...

15 man is to small of a unit. You need to the full 30 to get the 20+ unit size bonus of +1 to hit and to ensure when you charge things they get there. Deepstrike and charge 2 or three different units turn 1. Keep a khorne hq close by ( its very easy to trail some bloodletters back to get in the heralds command aura for the bonus attack) and you'll kill/tie up several units, leaving the rest of your army to advance.

20 hours ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

I'm watching you move, like a hawk, every game from now on.

Whaaat? Why!?

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, SPaceORK said:

I'm pretty sure Banner of Blood says 1 cp...

Yeah, looks like I was misremembering that one. Sorry about that. 

[InfestedKerrigan]

Moving your plaguebearers 7 feet, brah.