the last stand of the dawi

[Don't Panic]

RCW is coming up and considering 9th is probably around the corner im guessing this MIGHT be the last tournament i attend with dwarfs as i know them.  Will be the first event since ofcc that ive brought dwarfs and the first event i get to use my build ive basically been sitting on for a while in fun games with minor tweaks.  i love dwarfs, but they can be frustrating at times.  they just have sooo many bad matchups(especially in uncomp) that you basically have to fight for a draw in.  i think the thing thats a big pain for this list is the super strong fly characters with crazy ward saves(and people that can make those saves, unlike me lol).  i think ive established better deployment schemes to make it difficult for them though.

here's what im starting with, probably some minor tweaks but it will be close to this im guessing:

 

2500 Pts - Dwarfs Roster

Runesmith (1#, 93 pts)
   1 Runesmith, 93 pts (General; Hand Weapon; Gromril Armour; Shield; Ancestral Grudge; Armour Piercing; Forgefire; Hatred (Orcs & Goblins); Hatred (Skaven); Magic Resistance (1); Relentless; Resolute; Rune Lore; Shieldwall)
      1 Runic Armour (Rune of Stone)
      1 Runic Talisman (Rune of Spellbreaking x1)

Thane (1#, 165 pts)
   1 Thane, 165 pts (Battle Standard Bearer; Great Weapon; Gromril Armour; Ancestral Grudge; Hatred (Orcs & Goblins); Hatred (Skaven); Relentless; Resolute; Shieldwall)
      1 Runic Armour (Master Rune of Gromril; Rune of Iron x2)

Master Engineer (1#, 70 pts)
   1 Master Engineer, 70 pts (Hand Weapon; Gromril Armour; Ancestral Grudge; Armour Piercing; Artillery Master; Dwarf-crafted; Entrenchment; Extra Attack; Hatred (Orcs & Goblins); Hatred (Skaven); Quick to Fire; Relentless; Resolute; “Stand Back Sir!”)

Runesmith (1#, 113 pts)
   1 Runesmith, 113 pts (Hand Weapon; Gromril Armour; Shield; Ancestral Grudge; Armour Piercing; Forgefire; Hatred (Orcs & Goblins); Hatred (Skaven); Magic Resistance (1); Relentless; Resolute; Rune Lore; Shieldwall)
      1 Runic Armour (Rune of Stone)
      1 Runic Talisman (Rune of Spellbreaking x2)

Longbeards (40#, 625 pts)
   39 Longbeards, 625 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Ancestral Grudge; Hatred (Orcs & Goblins); Hatred (Skaven); Immune to Psychology; Old Grumblers; Relentless; Resolute; Shieldwall; Always Strikes Last)
      1 Old Guard (Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Ancestral Grudge; Hatred (Orcs & Goblins); Hatred (Skaven); Immune to Psychology; Old Grumblers; Relentless; Resolute; Shieldwall; Always Strikes Last)
      1 Runic Standard (Rune of Stoicism; Stubborn)

Gyrocopter (3#, 240 pts)

Slayers (30#, 416 pts)
   27 Slayers, 416 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Array of Axes; Ancestral Grudge; Deathblow; Hatred (Orcs & Goblins); Hatred (Skaven); Immune to Psychology; Relentless; Resolute; Slayer; Slayer Axes; Slayer Cult; Unbreakable)
      3 Giant Slayers (Array of Axes; Ancestral Grudge; Deathblow; Hatred (Orcs & Goblins); Hatred (Skaven); Immune to Psychology;

Artillery Battery (12#, 450 pts)
   1 Cannon, 145 pts (Armour Piercing; Multiple Wounds (D6))
      1 Engineering Runes (Rune of Forging)
     
   1 Organ Gun, 160 pts (Armour Piercing; Organ Fire)
      1 Engineering Runes (Rune of Penetrating x1)

   1 Organ Gun, 145 pts (Armour Piercing; Organ Fire)
      1 Engineering Runes (Rune of Accuracy)

Irondrakes (17#, 320 pts)
   16 Irondrakes, 320 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Drakegun; Forge-proven Gromril Armour; Ancestral Grudge; Armour Piercing; Dwarf-crafted; Flaming Attacks; Hatred (Orcs & Goblins); Hatred (Skaven); Quick to Fire; Relentless; Resolute)
      1 Ironwarden (Hand Weapon; Drakegun; Forge-proven Gromril Armour; Ancestral Grudge; Hatred (Orcs & Goblins); Hatred (Skaven); Relentless; Resolute; Armour Piercing; Dwarf-crafted; Flaming Attacks; Quick to Fire)
      1 Runic Standard (Rune of Slowness x1)
 

[Raindog]

Not enough Slayers…….

[valourunbound]

I thank you for putting your heroes at the top.

[Peanut]

Really cool list. I'd love to play it.

[Don't Panic]

Not enough Slayers…….

agreed.  i do have 60 slayers now but seeing as you're running the slayer army i dont want to have someone have the chance of facing that much awesomeness TWICE in one event.  i kinda want to be a total dumb dumb and make an entire unit of giant slayers.  it would be terrible, yet spectacular at the same time...

[Kremmet]

Posting from my phone so I'll have to be more concise than usual.

 

1). Your list is severely lacking in unit numbers and doesn't make up for it with devastating combat punch. I'd break up your Longbeards into Quarrelers w/ GW and likely turn the Irondrakes into them too. Without a builds with a lord or two I just don't find "push it forward" dwarfs dangerous enough in uncomped.

 

2). Rune of Grugni on this BSB. This is not negotiable. The RoG is just too important for the dwarfs to have against armies like OnG that can match them in the artillery race while also having access to magic. Plus you're running Slayers which is also a huge boon for them as that 5++ VS ranged makes Slayers way more dangerous. Give him Rune of Stoicism as well to duplicate what you lost by swapping out the Longbeards.

 

3). Your Runepriests have the same armor which is not the dwarf way! :) I'm also not a big fan of the spell destroyer over just a scroll, but it is very good in open list.

 

4). Rune of Penetration is nowhere near as important as accuracy for Organ Guns. I'd swap it out for Accuracy and Burning to also get some flaming shots not tied to Irondrakes (especially given my above thoughts on what to do with them).

 

I've run mixed dwarfs a LOT this past year almost exclusively in uncomped so the above is just my take on things. My personal list was:

 

Blossombeard Dandyface (Lord): Rune of Might; Rune of Iron; Rune of Fortitude; 3 Runes of Warding; shield; Shieldbearers 313

 

Copperbrow Dandyface (Runesmith): Rune of Spellbreaking; shield 88

Dandyfriend Thorlakson (Runesmith): Rune of Spellbreaking; Rune of the Furnace; shield 93

Honeybristle Dandyface (Thane): shield; battle standard (Master Rune of Grungni) 153

Master Engineer: Rune of Impact 80

 

28 Longbeards: shields; Old Guard; musician; standard bearer (Rune of Stoicism) 429

29 Dwarf Warriors: great weapons; Veteran; musician; standard bearer 320

 

22 Slayers 264

Cannon: Rune of Forging 145

Grudge Thrower 80

Gyrocopter 80

Gyrocopter 80

Gyrocopter 80

 

Organ Gun: Rune of Accuracy 145

Organ Gun: Rune of Accuracy; Rune of Burning 150

 

2,500 points

 

Obviously I'm not saying you should play dwarfs my way. Just showing you where I'm coming from.

[KJTW]

Though I do think that Kremmet's list looks to be the tougher list, I'm not sure how it applies to your play style. At first blush it looks similar to the list you had against me at OFCC.

I can tell you in my experience as an Ogre Kingdoms that I find it far easier to get points out Dwarf lists that have a lot of characters, over lists with your characters and bigger tough units that I have to grind

[Don't Panic]

Posting from my phone so I'll have to be more concise than usual.

 

1). Your list is severely lacking in unit numbers and doesn't make up for it with devastating combat punch. I'd break up your Longbeards into Quarrelers w/ GW and likely turn the Irondrakes into them too. Without a builds with a lord or two I just don't find "push it forward" dwarfs dangerous enough in uncomped.

 

2). Rune of Grugni on this BSB. This is not negotiable. The RoG is just too important for the dwarfs to have against armies like OnG that can match them in the artillery race while also having access to magic. Plus you're running Slayers which is also a huge boon for them as that 5++ VS ranged makes Slayers way more dangerous. Give him Rune of Stoicism as well to duplicate what you lost by swapping out the Longbeards.

 

3). Your Runepriests have the same armor which is not the dwarf way! :) I'm also not a big fan of the spell destroyer over just a scroll, but it is very good in open list.

 

4). Rune of Penetration is nowhere near as important as accuracy for Organ Guns. I'd swap it out for Accuracy and Burning to also get some flaming shots not tied to Irondrakes (especially given my above thoughts on what to do with them).

 

I've run mixed dwarfs a LOT this past year almost exclusively in uncomped so the above is just my take on things. My personal list was:

 

Blossombeard Dandyface (Lord): Rune of Might; Rune of Iron; Rune of Fortitude; 3 Runes of Warding; shield; Shieldbearers 313

 

Copperbrow Dandyface (Runesmith): Rune of Spellbreaking; shield 88

Dandyfriend Thorlakson (Runesmith): Rune of Spellbreaking; Rune of the Furnace; shield 93

Honeybristle Dandyface (Thane): shield; battle standard (Master Rune of Grungni) 153

Master Engineer: Rune of Impact 80

 

28 Longbeards: shields; Old Guard; musician; standard bearer (Rune of Stoicism) 429

29 Dwarf Warriors: great weapons; Veteran; musician; standard bearer 320

 

22 Slayers 264

Cannon: Rune of Forging 145

Grudge Thrower 80

Gyrocopter 80

Gyrocopter 80

Gyrocopter 80

 

Organ Gun: Rune of Accuracy 145

Organ Gun: Rune of Accuracy; Rune of Burning 150

 

2,500 points

 

Obviously I'm not saying you should play dwarfs my way. Just showing you where I'm coming from.

alright let me break it down a bit more on why and answer the questions. 1. my combat potential is very fine.  30 slayers and 40 longbeards?  there's not much that stands against those 2 blocks.  17 drakes(must have 16+ for them to be effective) are actually not terrible in combat either and can flank protect.  plus slowness so i would have to be pretty silly on my deployment/movement to allow something to get into them that i dont want there.  my list isnt a 'push it forward list' per say.  its a dynamic one.  thats why i like drakes. they fill a strategic gap in dwarfs. i can push forward against some things or stand back and blast.  penetration is something i just wanted to do new.  i almost always rune dub accuracys, but i have an engineer in this list so its really not a terrible idea to do penetration.  the OG with pen is mostly my poor man's reaction to 'i need 2 cannons/GTs'.  and ive found GTs to just be completely terrible in comparison to the laser beams.  hitting 1/3 of the time for 80+ points? screw that id rather have a copter to mess with people(especially elves)...  honestly the reason why i dont have 2 blocks in core is more because i dont have enough longbeards with sword and board.  its about the ONLY unit i dont have 20+ models of lol.  but im getting some more old school beards today so maybe test it out later(probably not though since tournament is coming up).  about the lord: ive ran the lord many times so i can tell you straight up he is just a complete waste of points.  in a meta flooded with lower T and fast things the lord with might is terrible.  and is it necessary when you have GW beards and slayers? no... and we've had this discussion about grungi before.  i think its OK but 5++ ward in a 6 inch bubble for 60 points?  ive ran grungi plenty of times, it just so rarely pays itself back. also never put the stubborn on the bsb.  BAD idea.  he'll just get popped and then you lose the stubborn.  put it on the unit if you can and put the vanguard on him if using that.   Qs never do enough range damage to pay themselves back over bigger amount of longbeards. they generally just become easy MM and shooting targets or easy pickings for a solo character.  dont get me wrong, i still like them but the 40 beardstar is just something people dont want to touch very often unless they can magic them down.  rune of impact is fun on an engineer(ive done it) but rarely is useful it seems. engineers are just easy to off so i try to keep them cheap or with a pistol cause that gives them more use imo. as for #3 i think you're getting a little rusty in your dwarf rules.  must be those pointy ear things you are playing/cheating with now have messed with your brain :P whats the one rune in the book that is special and doesnt follow dem rules?  runesmiths with 2+ and shields are amazing.  they protect their points a lot better.  i honestly just bring breakers generally than eaters but 1 eater is nice if i have points for it.  getting rid of purple sun/final trans/dwellers on a 4+...... yeeea lol

i like your list and honestly ive ran things eerily similar to it over the past year.  one change i might do is go back to dub accuracy.  i do like starting on 2s to hit, but want to see how the pen works against speedy things that give me issues and if it fills a gap.  i try to keep the amount of flamming down just because there are just as many things out there with flame wards as there are with regen it seems and those things have given me bigger issues.  and the things with regen i just have to hit with drakes first to take them down.  im quite decent at the shooting phase and have a decent record with my short fellas so dont worry ;) only one race i have a losing record to with dwarfs and thats DoC.  mostly because ive played like 10 games against msu daemons that just scannon off my stuff and FT/gaetway the blocks.  thankfully my only loss to DoC since i came here was to Romes(that was with beasts too)...

i think thats one cool thing about dwarfs is you can have different builds and find success.   i just dont feel theres any builds that have an answer for a good chunk of the nasty's out there and thats what can be frustrating.  it became quite noticeable when playing legions to realize i had answers to things i wouldnt with dwarfs... but i love them so who cares :P

 

EDIT: oh and evans beasts.  for some reason i cant seem to beat those buggers!

[Don't Panic]

Though I do think that Kremmet's list looks to be the tougher list, I'm not sure how it applies to your play style. At first blush it looks similar to the list you had against me at OFCC.

I can tell you in my experience as an Ogre Kingdoms that I find it far easier to get points out Dwarf lists that have a lot of characters, over lists with your characters and bigger tough units that I have to grind

youre right.  its not really my play style tbh.  its more his.  actually its kind of funny cause kremmet and i have similar experiences in armies but run them differently.  i actually like his inputs a lot, gets me thinking differently and i do like his suggestions.   as for list vs ofcc: it is similar, but instead of a crappy 'bring the comp up' bolt thrower and miners i have an extra organ gun and more bodies. 

[Kremmet]

 

My reply to your reply to my reply! 

 

1)  The combat potential that you're lacking is that you don't have enough units.  A unit of Longbeards and a unit of Slayers (you're kidding yourself if you think 17 Irondrakes are anything more than a speedbump) are easily chaffed up and dealt with one by one.  For armies that can't do that (mainly WoC and elves) they'll just dance around you until one unit is low enough that the other one joining in isn't a problem.

 

2)  I definitely see why Penetrating is in the list and know that my comment was purely in the "how to make this list more competitive" and not "OMGTAKETHISORYOULOSE!!ELEVEN!"  Your point on GT's has a smack of badly applied heuristics.  Lasers are unbeatable for dropping things on paper, but in the reality of the game stone throwers definitely have their place as:

 

-You can't hide behind walls of Monstrous X with ward/regen to protect yourself

-You can't hide behind LoS-blocking terrain/fences

-They are MUCH better at shelling infantry

-With an engineer you can wait-and-see whether he needs to turn your grudge thrower into a monster of accuracy (5/9 chance to direct hit and reroll Misfire)

-Copters are great at messing with infantry...when they stay perfectly within 10".  Definitely not saying copters are bad or the Steam Gun not efficacious against infantry, but saying that they're kings of all infantry killing is a misnomer.  

 

I'm not saying that you should love GT's or sacrifice cannons for them, but they're definitely not empirically bad as you seem to be suggesting.

 

3)  Hahahahahaha!  The Rune of Might is not even close to a waste of points.  The meta, especially uncomped, is still dominated by flying monsters (all being T5+) and quite a few combat lords being T5 (dwarf, WoC, VC, and OnG are still incredibly popular and all have T5 combat lords/most heroes).  Most people opt for the GW because it's cheaper, but I like the RoM because it's a dark horse pick comparatively, grants a few decent initiative magical attacks to the unit, and will pretty much cave the head of any combat lord dwarf units (or, in your case, unit  ) fear.

 

4)  If you're running a Lord, the BSB never gets attacked as he'll be in the second rank.  The only times my BSB ends up in a fight is when his unit around him is dead.  6" on Grugni is only an issue if you're using it to protect war machines with units trying to go forward.  If you're castling or just using it to protect combat blocks (both of which are where it is so powerful) it is amazing even if only as a deterrent.

 

5)  I didn't say it was against the rules; I said that it isn't the dwarf way.  You're going to send your poor Rune Priests in the same dress to the last party before the end of the world?  For shame. 

 

I disagree with you on the point that dwarfs have a lot of builds (competitively speaking of course).  The issue dwarfs have dealing with big beasties while still putting a fight up against elves (two sides of the same top table coin) is what cripples their choices in terms of what they can bring to the table.  The dawi are a highly competent force on the table, but have very few builds that are good enough to theoretically take on what you're going to see at the top. 

[Don't Panic]

1) well i put the bsb in the drakes making people want to charge them(and my bsb isnt a pansy).  that unit held up 3 rounds vs a doombull so i really think you are underestimating drakes.  they are ld10 4+ with 6++.  they can grind against a lot of things out there.  and holding against a doombull for 3 rounds was impressive to me seeing as thats a terrible matchup for dwarfs in general.  and he got in by some crazy luck rolls(he rolled an 11, 1 for slowness and got in on a 10 lol) so eh.  and i dont think you understand the purpose of drakes if you are saying elves as an example.  drakes MURDER fast cav elves... 21 inch shooting radius?  ask any elf player who's played me... they hate them lol.  woc, yea woc disc characters are my prime example of things that give me issues with my war machines.  reason i wanted to try the S6 gun is mostly woc.  and the stupid 3++ peg.

2) i think GTs are good theoretically(come on i know all those things dude..) they just have never done much for me.  i mean i have some REALLY bad shooting luck sometimes(like yesterday i think i rolled 4 straight time of a combo of 4 and misfire with organ guns, one with ME rerolls lol).  i sometimes take a naked gt but most success ive had is with those 3 artillery pieces.  as for copters, idk what you're smoking there :) they are insanely good at killing infantry and slowing them down.  even against T4 infantry they just murder. you get like 14+ guys generally each shot?.  i took 50 gor down to like 32 with 3 or 4 steam guns and well basically whiped out the ungor bunker with 2.   and thats i think slightly below average wound wise.  using copters just takes experience i feel.  being able to do tons of damage and negate them from moving(double flee) is crazy good.  also you use them diferently depending on your list and what you're facing. if there's anything im good at with dwarfs, its using copters...

3) when did i say rune of might was terrible?  i said LORDS are meh, not RoM...... might is amazing lol.  against elf characters though he gets punked by dreadlords unfortunately.  its just lords are crazy hell expensive and take basically an entire unit away you could have for those points.  id just rather have bodies and i know many dwarf players agree you should go character light and thats kind of my experience as well.  sure the lord would have been a godsend against beasts last night, but well rounded list probably would not have him.  and its not a DARK HORSE rune lolz duuude everyone takes it. i think i see it more than a GW...  i take RoM every time i do take a lord for similar reasons. except i have a different build(mines more killy)

4) i really think this comes down to different play styles here.  i dont like hiding my bsb.  he's a dwarf.  wtf, why would we hide our heros?!?!  our heros will take that crap and go down swinging in glory!  hiding him just isnt my style.  i want him to take attacks and laugh at them, especially without a lord.  but the hide behind a lord tactic, true, i mean thats what im doing with bugman in ofcc.  bringing a comp 20 deathstar list :P

5)gotcha, ok ill give one of them a tutu and the other a prom gown... is that fine then? :)

 

as for your last statement, i think thats the issue is 'competitive' means ability to take on most things.  thats just a weakness of dwarfs, regardless of build you sacrifice one thing for gaining something else. its hard to balance your builds to be able to take on different things with dwarfs. thats whats frustrating.  and honestly, the most competitive build= funline.  no doubt in my mind its the strongest.  i mean the fact i havent lost with it yet.... even against khaine magic(which i did take grungi that time) LOLz.  just really boring... thanks for comments bud!  btw, not sure how serious i can take your comments though when you drop dwarfs and start playing malekith. epic betrayal! you dont deserve that gunship... think ill bring my white dwarf and have him sail off on it giving you the bird the next time i see you ;)

[Kremmet]

I really don't think I'm underestimating the Drakes.  a 4+/6++ unit of GW-less Longbeards is not an impressive combat block especially when there aren't that many of them.  I do like the way you're running them (and, besides Strollaz, that's how I'd run em too), but I don't think they add to the whole of the list well enough.

 

As for GT's I wasn't the one talking about how crappy they are so I was working with what you gave me  .  Yes, sometimes they miss, but overall they're cheap and capable of dealing with any army type (something you profess to being a problem for dwarfs).  The problem with copters has nothing to do with how destructive they CAN be.  No, it's that they're easily avoided with things that are important for a turn or two which is generally all you need to drop them (especially as you're not running enough scary war machines to worry me closer).  That's why I like GT's:  they do not rely on any metric beyond their target being farther than 12" from them.

 

Dwarf heroes, to me, are their replacement for monsters.  Sure you can get more units on the table, but more infantry doesn't do the same thing as lone models.  Having a lord greatly increase your tool diversity which is something dwarf are sorely lacking in.  Also the Rune of Might is almost never taken competitively.  I mean, maybe in your meta it is, but not globally as it doesn't do much to afore mentioned elves.  I like it because the harder match up for me is WoC/VC and not the elf match up.  As for your BSB, if you want him up front, I'll happily oblige turning him into a splat on the ground for you.

 

Hey, I never said I was a dwarf player.  I play dwarfs and have competitively, but the mountain is not where my heart is.  Ever since Malekith took the knee to Grimgor my true dream has been realized.  ALL POWAH TO DA TRU MASTA!  

[Don't Panic]

sooo you're an ong player now? lol oh riley... someday we need to get a game in!  and do some comedic shenanigans... although if you play elves, the only comedic thing will be how fast their heads hit the ground ;)

[Kremmet]

I started with OnG way back when (well more G than O), but I haven't played them since Priestley's rendition.  We'll see what 9th brings and then figure out a game although I make no promises about what I'll bring  .

[Don't Panic]

cool.  i want to bring all monsters and rage....  ha just listened to you silly seattle guys' podcast on bsb.  man reliving nightmares lol.  3 cascades that tournament *shiver*.  made me want to go back to blowing up forging organ guns with my dwarfs..

[Kremmet]

cool.  i want to bring all monsters and rage....  ha just listened to you silly seattle guys' podcast on bsb.  man reliving nightmares lol.  3 cascades that tournament *shiver*.  made me want to go back to blowing up forging organ guns with my dwarfs..

 

Then you've seen my love for Grimgore in particular  .

[Don't Panic]

Ready to get my beard on. I'll probably be a bit rusty for the wrath due to lack of games with dwarfs this year. Just hopefully don't have to face Evans beastmen... That list is basically kryptonite for me lol. List I submitted is pretty much my standard list with a few wrinkles. I at least know how to play it...

[rudra34]

You have to beat me one of these days!

[MexicanNinja]

Ready to get my beard on. I'll probably be a bit rusty for the wrath due to lack of games with dwarfs this year. Just hopefully don't have to face Evans beastmen... That list is basically kryptonite for me lol. List I submitted is pretty much my standard list with a few wrinkles. I at least know how to play it...

Round one pairing is going to seed you and rudra.

[Prophecy]

This was a good read. I learned some things for sure. My thing is never field a lord....ever. I just don't see a lord anything being a good investment until 3k. For me a dwarf army should be about bodies and warmachines.

[Don't Panic]

So the comp 19 dwarfs with no war machines didn't do bad. Sad to say that I don't think anyone really enjoyed facing this list even though it was kind of my intention to make a fun dwarf list that wants to fight you rather than shoot you. Slayers really performed poorly in the games even in matchups I thought they would shine in they didn't do hot. The beardstar was unbeatable. It got beaten once by ogres but they actually got their points back first.

So I have all the tools to make my display board for dwarfs I've just kind of been staring at it sadly for a while tbh because I still have a lot of work left on the dwarfs but just not feeling as enthusiastic for obvious reasons. My goal is to finish the dwarf project this year and I'm going to start the display board today. The brozen belligerent b-turds will be completed!

[rudra34]

I plan to play you on many fields with scree slopes, and to feed many bulls to you.

[Don't Panic]

so for the display board: obviously doing a mountain theme.  ive been saving up a ton of corks and bottle caps to add.  im sure it will end up looking like a child's art and craft day but im going to put much more energy and effort into this one than the beastmen one.  will be using a ton of scibor terrain as well... ill show pics once i can figure out what format i need to keep it 'under' the amount that this site allows.  always struggled with getting my phone camera to upload here...