Brother Glacius Posted June 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 And yet they are pulling ET books and all of the other army books off of the shelves. Why? Because they don't need them. The people that want them, already have them. A small round base skirmish force does not grow into a large square based army. Sorry. It does grow into a medium skirmish force, and then a large skirmish force...but still a skirmish force..and still on round bases. And GW will be more than happy to sell you round bases for your existing square based models. Or sell you the same model you already own, but on a round base. Why? Because they want to sell [big bad swear word]. This all comes back to selling models. What can they sell you? They don't want to just sell you a book...they want to sell you a book and an army. How do they do that? Well they sell you the book which lets you buy just a few models to play. Then they offer more models in case you want a slightly larger game. Then they sell you another book with different models, that you can play by themselves, or with your other new models.They keep doing that until you have an army. And they want to keep adding to that army. 8th edition fantasy does not work with that design. Big square based regiments do not work with that design. Take witch elves for instance. What is more appealing....Buying 10 models for $60, put them on round bases, and have a fairly big cool unit for a skirmish game (which you can ally with other factions), or paying $120 for 20 models which is considered fairly weak in the current fantasy game, oh, and it is only for one army? In current fantasy, if you don't run DE, you aren't buying that unit. In skirmish fantasy, that customer base grows substantially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 I play DE and haven't bought a single witch elf model. Just saying. Not every DE player wants them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mekhet Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 And what...throw out their entire existing customer base, with decades of accumulated good will, for an untested skirmish game?Absolutely not. That's insanity.It doesn't take much to convert a square-base game into a round-base game. People have been doing it with demons for years and nobody bats an eye. Other companies already put out conversion trays for to rank the round models up for fantasy. It does make things somewhat more difficult for base-contact effects, but I suggest those are on the way out with the next edition anyways. And good riddance, since that mechanic is the reason obnoxious character walls are ascendant in the meta right now.If it's easy to convert a skirmish force to a mass battle force, then it DOES become a gateway product. It becomes very easy to ramp a small skirmish force into an allied mass battle force into a standalone battle force. Which is what GW wants to do: encourage us to buy more models. A skirmish force that you cap out fairly quickly doesn't do that. A force which has cross-compatibility with a larger game format does.Essentially, I think GW has realized that the present state of WHFB is much more like Apocalypse than it is like WH40k. It needs that smaller scale entry point to help with scaleability and ease of entry, but currently lacks it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don't Panic Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 And yet they are pulling ET books and all of the other army books off of the shelves. Why? Because they don't need them. The people that want them, already have them. A small round base skirmish force does not grow into a large square based army. Sorry. It does grow into a medium skirmish force, and then a large skirmish force...but still a skirmish force..and still on round bases. And GW will be more than happy to sell you round bases for your existing square based models. Or sell you the same model you already own, but on a round base. Why? Because they want to sell [big bad swear word]. This all comes back to selling models. What can they sell you? They don't want to just sell you a book...they want to sell you a book and an army. How do they do that? Well they sell you the book which lets you buy just a few models to play. Then they offer more models in case you want a slightly larger game. Then they sell you another book with different models, that you can play by themselves, or with your other new models.They keep doing that until you have an army. And they want to keep adding to that army. 8th edition fantasy does not work with that design. Big square based regiments do not work with that design. Take witch elves for instance. What is more appealing....Buying 10 models for $60, put them on round bases, and have a fairly big cool unit for a skirmish game (which you can ally with other factions), or paying $120 for 20 models which is considered fairly weak in the current fantasy game, oh, and it is only for one army? In current fantasy, if you don't run DE, you aren't buying that unit. In skirmish fantasy, that customer base grows substantially. you might be the first person ive ever heard that has referred to as witches being weak... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romes Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 you might be the first person ive ever heard that has referred to as witches being weak... I smiled at that. =) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don't Panic Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 I smiled at that. =) lol of course you smiled. someday you wont be able to escape my 'i hate elves a lot' dwarfs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted June 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 I'm sorry, are you guys just not reading what was written? I have said from the beginning, that GW will give token support to your existing armies. But they are not going to spend much effort on expanding your existing square base army or getting people to buy a square based army. It makes more sense for them to create a skirmish style game (ie 40K - round bases, less restrictive movement, typically less models needed) that scales well for all sizes. Entry level will be fairly cheap by GW standards, much less than it costs now to get into WFB, with a development cycle that pops out smaller factions on a similar schedule to 40K, that can mix and match with other factions. Its working great for 40K. Tell me, why should GW care about your current armies? Time has shown that people with existing armies aren't buying enough. New dwarfs came out, I'm a long time dwarf player. How many new models did I buy? ..... One. Was I going to replace my current longbeards with $5 per model plastics? Am I going to lay down $150 to replace one unit? Hell no. GW wants to draw new people in. They don't give a rats ass for those who've come before. Bottom line, Fantasy looks like a lot of work, it is a lot of work, and it is more expensive than 40K. If your only argument for GW sticking with large scale square based armies is because people already own those armies, then you don't understand how selling works. As for the WE statement, I didn't mean the unit was weak, but a unit of 20 models is considered almost below minimum size now in fantasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mekhet Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 And who are all these new entrants going to play against? Who will teach them the rules? To paint? It certainly won't be one of GW's one-man stores, which have enough room for a pickup game but not a sustainable gaming club.Yes...people buying the book, the magic cards, and a unit or two with every new release isn't exactly enough to sustain the game. To do that GW needs people buying entire new armies. But...who - if not us - is that going to be? As to why GW would keep mass battles around, I say for the same reason as for why they have formats like Apocalypse around: people love having big battles with loads of figures on the table. I would say much moreso for WHFB than for 40K, where massed armies are iconic to the genre.I've also seen plenty of people with 20-man units of witches. They're a cheap, disposable unit that will bite a chunk out of most enemy units before being dragged down. Making a proper cauldron star out of them is a big point commitment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romes Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 On the witches - unit fillers! I have 2 40x40 unit fillers in my 28 model witch elf unit (with a cauldron), because of how badly they rank up, I would guess most people do. (with the cauldron that's 4 ranks) Broader point - I think you guys both have legitimate points. GW may be sub-par at certain things (*cough* communication, tournament support, balance), but they are not to blind to realize that A: they need a lower entry point to make the game more approachable to new people B: the people deeply addicted to plastic crack don't stop buying when their army is full. My theory is you will see one overall system that is designed specifically to scale up with the different size tiers having some of their own rules. It needs to be easy for players to move between one size and another so that every warband can become a legion and every legion owner can dip into a new warband. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 Wow...looks like they are indeed pulling all books off the shelves. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/960/643158.page Pic on pg 33 from the Liverpool GW facebook page.Note that their posting has since been taken down. TnT as well as the End Times books and Storms of Magic also gone:( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mekhet Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 Wow...looks like they are indeed pulling all books off the shelves. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/960/643158.page Pic on pg 33 from the Liverpool GW facebook page.Note that their posting has since been taken down. TnT as well as the End Times books and Storms of Magic also gone:( Interesting. Means we won't have to wait very long, at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dashneeb Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 And who are all these new entrants going to play against? Who will teach them the rules? To paint? It certainly won't be one of GW's one-man stores, which have enough room for a pickup game but not a sustainable gaming club. Games Workshop doesn't want you playing or having a club in their one man stores. It's one of the points of their training. Why? Because generally, people who show up to play don't buy things. Sometimes they do, and I think the store has to foster a mentality that you must support it. But often times (in other parts of the country) the players don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swan-of-War Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 The club scene is bigger in the U.K., I've heard many say that FLGS are a rarity there. It's odd - besides instant gratification, what does a GW store have that an online shop can't provide for cheaper? Exclusives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kremmet Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 Considering GW shops pretty much just direct you to a computer in-shop to boost online presence, they don't offer much. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 Selective memory! While 8th has grown to be better liked, there was a huge exodus from Fantasy when 8th came along. Count me in on that exodus. It was actually less about not liking 8th edition, but more that I'd have to totally change my list/army and learn how to play all over again, and that wasn't something I wanted to do both for money reasons, but also for time reasons. I decided to devote my time to 40k and I still have had VERY little time to play that. I just don't like being a scrub. :D 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mekhet Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 Games Workshop doesn't want you playing or having a club in their one man stores. It's one of the points of their training. Why? Because generally, people who show up to play don't buy things. Sometimes they do, and I think the store has to foster a mentality that you must support it. But often times (in other parts of the country) the players don't. Which is exactly my point. Clubs are required to play their game. You're always going to lose people like Fluger, who simply aren't willing to invest the time/money to change. However the rest of us will buy a few units here or there, even (heaven forbid) rebase a bunch of minis. ...but we're not going to do that if they invalidate our entire army. Much more likely that they just reprinted all the rules for our units in whatever 9th edition is. Notice that they've pulled books, but not models. Also that we haven't had anything more than laughable, token FAQ updates in what...2 years? Most likely nobody at GW FAQ was willing to spend their time FAQing rules that were about to be replaced wholesale. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don't Panic Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 Right on km. My thoughts as well.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted June 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 I still don't see where you think GW is going to invalidate your existing army. They could easily publish a set of rules that are compatible with 8th ed books. That is not a huge effort on their part. Thus, you get to keep playing with your current models and you don't have to rebase anything. Remember Ravening Hordes? Again, not a big effort from GW required to release something like that. But moving forward, I could see where they will focus on expanding the skirmish game instead of going back to mass battles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dashneeb Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 The GW stores offer more than just buying stuff on a computer, but it's again, aimed at the new guy. The new guy who doesn't know how to paint very well. The guy that doesn't know the game well enough. They often have a larger selection of things than normal brick and mortar stores but yes, mostly the "warehouse is behind the computer" mentality. Of course, those aren't being offered in other stores either. Have you tried to find Warp Spiders recently? I'm not a huge fan of it but I get it. It's much like video games being sold for the same price in the store online. GW can't sell for cheaper, because it would piss off retailers, but they don't care because they make more money by selling it directly in their stores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mekhet Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 I still don't see where you think GW is going to invalidate your existing army. They could easily publish a set of rules that are compatible with 8th ed books. That is not a huge effort on their part. Thus, you get to keep playing with your current models and you don't have to rebase anything. Remember Ravening Hordes? Again, not a big effort from GW required to release something like that. But moving forward, I could see where they will focus on expanding the skirmish game instead of going back to mass battles. We already know they're not going to do this, as it' confirmed that all 8th edition books and armybooks have been pulled from stores as of today I believe. Based on that I expect to see a Ravening Hordes-style update, probably excising all of the remaining metal/finecast models from the line and moving forward from there. Doesn't bode well for my beloved Tomb Kings, where half the important elements in the range are still finecast (all characters, casket, ushabti, catapults). My Vampires should be alright still (though the only plastic character is the ZD lord / SGK?). I'm not going to lie and say I'm not holding my breath. However I'm cautiously optimistic that GW won't [big bad swear word] us all over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted June 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 They don't need to keep selling 8th edition books. That isn't what I was suggesting. For those with 8th ed books you can continue using them with whatever GW puts out. This is all under the context of "if you already have it, you can keep using it". That does not require them to sell 8th edition material at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClassicFlava Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 If the books were still compatible they wouldn't pull them from the shelves. If they were still compatible people would still have a reason to buy them. If people had a reason to buy them then they wouldn't pull them from the shelves. The models will be compatible but its highly unlikely the books will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don't Panic Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 how ticked are wood elf players. "hey we finally got a new army book, thank you so much GW for that nearly a decade-esque wait!" GW responds a year later(at their typical long response rate, if any..): "ok, since a decade is too long we'll just make it less than a single year for this release and then whipe your book out completely. HOW YOU LIKE MEH NOW!?!?!" woodies got pwned. ok now i like GW again......... :P man i really am an elf hater hehe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indytims Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 It is curious.... If they do combine several races under one banner but keep all the current fig line relevant.... That is going to make for some hefty army books wouldnt it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mekhet Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 If the books were still compatible they wouldn't pull them from the shelves. If they were still compatible people would still have a reason to buy them. If people had a reason to buy them then they wouldn't pull them from the shelves. The models will be compatible but its highly unlikely the books will be. More importantly though, the models haven't been pulled. Which means the units themselves are still compatible, but the books would seem not to me. To me that means only one thing...Ravening Hordes 2.0. Everyone gets an armybook upon release, that makes existing models playable. Though I'm still guessing we lose the finecast stuff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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