Musings on 9th edition

[Brother Glacius]

So I've been keeping up with the main rumors for fantasy just like everyone else here. I own several armies and have invested heavily into the game. However, I don't see why GW will do more than a token effort towards the large scale game.

 

Why did Fantasy fail? From most accounts, 8th edition was well liked. It was nearly completed in terms of army books. I think most of us believe that it is too hard to get new people into the game. And it is typically attributed to the cost of making a large (2K+) army. With twenty model units costing anywhere from $50-$120, and even single characters running $20+, the game out-priced the audience. Plus, its a lot of work.

 

Now I keep reading people making predictions on 9th edition. That there will be two games, a skirmish and then a large scale version of the rules. But honestly, why would GW care about large scale? It was already proven to fail. Oh, I think they will release a ruleset that is compatible with 8th edition army books. But beyond that, why would GW support that size of game?

 

For those of us with armies already....they don't care about us in that context. We have our armies. Other than rules and a new unit or two we aren't buying the quantities that GW wants. And the price point of large armies is too restrictive. Not only that, but the work of  assembling and painting 100+ models is also daunting to new players. So why would GW want to focus on that style of game?

 

I don't think they will. I think the skirmish level is where you will see GW focus their attention. Recently on their web site they had a AdMech bundle for over $800. It had less than 60 models. It was also sold out. Now GW bundles don't even come with a discount. $16 a mini basically, and it sold out. And you'd need three books to play it, so there's another $150. Why is that price point okay? Why is that not restricting players?

 

I think it is the nature of the 40K game. People can buy smaller armies and still enjoy it. They can pick up a small allied force to add to their main army. The models are more dynamic and even grunts stand out all by themselves instead of being hidden in a block. It doesn't seem so overwhelming.

 

What I see GW doing is releasing rules to get people in the door, something in the 10-20 model range at first. And then they will expand it out to 50-60 size, and that will be the sweet spot. Then they can roll out new factions just like 40K. Did the AdMech need two books? Hell no...but GW did it because they knew people would get both. Same thing is going to happen to Fantasy. They will release a book with 3-4 model sets. Think of it...there are 15? armies for fantasy. Break that down into probably at least three books per army book as sub-factions if not more. They can just rotate through them and people will buy it up. There just is no reason for GW to try to push large armies anymore.

 

[dashneeb]

I'd say that they'll probably have lip service rules for large armies for the same reason that 40k has unbound.  

 

It's simply there for people who just want to play with all their models.

 

I heard great things about 8th, and I heard a lot of griping.  However, I think that people who enjoyed 8th will probably try to keep with 8th, until enough new things come out that they don't have rules for.

 

Remember 40k struggled after it's transition from 2nd to 3rd, and some things have been eeking their way back in.  I'd agree, each model in 40k has more life in it than a single trooper in Fantasy.  But the fact that they have decided to revamp Fantasy (possibly) with little care for the Fantasy crowd tells you what they think of your purchases over the past few years :)

[King Mekhet]

GW cares about mass battle because it sells models...

...to people who are already playing the game. Notice how much all of us have spent over the years? Yeah...GW likes that. The issue with 8th isn't the game, nor even sales, it's *NEW CUSTOMERS*. Very tough to get new customers when your game costs $500-900 to get a proper sized army.

Skirmish games are much easier to get into. Problem is that people cap out on what they need fairly quickly, and their motivation to buy further models drops off. They're left either expanding their present army with uncompetitive models, or starting a new faction. But if you're starting a new faction, why make it Warhammer when it could just as easily be Darklands? Or Warmachine?

Thus why if you're GW, you want both. Skirmish gets customers in, mass battle keeps them there and keeps them spending. The two games form a symbiotic bond, with an end result that is stronger (and more profitable) than either on their own.



...or at least in theory.

[intrizic]

GW cares about mass battle because it sells models......

check my signature, it's a direct quote

[King Mekhet]

check my signature, it's a direct quote

 

And lo, did Games Workshop say "let them play Mass Battle," and they did play mass battle, and drink beer, and verily did the good times roll.

[fluger]

I think 40k has better IP, and I think that is why the Old World got blowed up.  

 

Realistically, I hope Warhammer: Total War does for Fantasy what Dawn of War did for 40k:  Get more exposure of the IP to more people.  

 

As was stated, the high price point of 40k models hasn't hurt it at all, and GW has FINALLY (despite mutterings about power creep to the contrary) figured out how to use rules to sell models (mostly in the form of "tax" units in really good formations: see Vypers and Tomb Blades being SOLD OUT worldwide with their codex drop when before they languished on shelves.).  

[thatdave]

Hey!  Do you guys smell that?  I think a 40k player did sneak onto our forum!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 J/K fluger lol

[indytims]

I think there will be a mass-battles 'version' no matter what, because there are and will be people who prefer that level of play - regardless of the price-point.

 

That being said, I am a huge fan of skirmish-level games. LotR is my favorite GW game, to be honest, and the size of the armies involved is one of the main reasons, but I would like to pull out my skaven for a 1500-1750 pt throw down once in awhile. There have been folks on Dakka talking about participation and tournament numbers for WHFB recently, and if those numbers are accurate, the current playerbase for mass-battles hasn't disappeared.

 

But what is supposedly happening is sales are declining. If you buy a unit of clanrats... you can use that unit forever. But for folks who have nothing to start with, a 'mass battles' game is very, very daunting - price-wise, and time-wise.

 

However, if they could lure in folks in a smaller fashion with the mass battles game as the 'logical next step', I think potential new players would feel less pressure to plop down $600 for the basics, and instead 'start small', find out they love the models/game/community, and work their way up, while getting use out of their initial investments quicker.

 

That's just my outlook, though. I could be completely off base. There might not even be a mass battles/skirmish tag-team like I am hoping there will be.

[King Mekhet]

Lol @ Dakka. That place is just a cesspool of 40K players, still whining about the two games of WHFB they played 5 years ago when the edition hit.

Oh, yeah? Please tell me more about how broken steadfast hordes and mindrazor are, please...

[pretre]

Lol @ Dakka. That place is just a cesspool of 40K players, still whining about the two games of WHFB they played 5 years ago when the edition hit.

 

Oh, yeah? Please tell me more about how broken steadfast hordes and mindrazor are, please...

That escalated quickly... Did Dakka feth your mom or something?

[indytims]

Lol @ Dakka. That place is just a cesspool of 40K players, still whining about the two games of WHFB they played 5 years ago when the edition hit.

 

Oh, yeah? Please tell me more about how broken steadfast hordes and mindrazor are, please...

 

There are some 'undesirables' there, sure, as there are on most large-scale forums... but there are also a ton of good, level-headed folks there, too. I don't let the few rotten apples ruin it for me. :)

[Brother Glacius]

I stated that I think GW will release a set of rules that are compatible with the 8th edition army books. That will support large army games. However, GW doesn't need to pursue it any further than that. Look at what they are doing with 40K. Rapid release of models and books due to the huge fact that books can now be used together. Basically, making fantasy more like 40K is a smarter way for them to go. Why waste the energy to try and come up with balanced large scale army rules for each race? That doesn't attract new players.

 

So they come out with the skirmish game. Round bases, small number of models. How does that translate to a large army? Are people really going to jump from a 20 model force to a 100+ model force on square bases? No. It is much easier to build them up to a 40 model force...and then a 60 model force...all on round bases, all using the same rule set. At no point does that roll over to a large square based army.

 

So what you'll have are new books that focus most of the rules and lists for the skirmish game. If GW wants to be really smart, then they also include an addendum to the 8th army list with whatever new model they pushed out. So if you are a skirmish player, the majority of the book is for you. If you are a square baser, then there's a reason for you to buy the new models for your existing army.

 

What you won't see are army books like 8th edition. You won't see a Bretonnian army book to replace the current one. That won't sell models. What you should end up getting are Bretonnian faction books, with small sets of units that are nicely themed. The book will let you field a coherent force for the skirmish game that you can ally with other forces.

 

They don't need to focus on the large scale game. They have a good rule set, they will release minor tweaks to it, and then be done. They will focus on getting new players to the system, which means skirmish/40K style gameplay. Looser, simpler, and easy to scale from small to medium. I wouldn't be surprised if the current regiment boxes for fantasy eventually become web store only. It won't cost them much to keep that option open for players.

 

Getting people to play small skirmish games is not going to entice them to play large scale games. There just isn't a transition there.

[indytims]

I stated that I think GW will release a set of rules that are compatible with the 8th edition army books. That will support large army games. However, GW doesn't need to pursue it any further than that. Look at what they are doing with 40K. Rapid release of models and books due to the huge fact that books can now be used together. Basically, making fantasy more like 40K is a smarter way for them to go. Why waste the energy to try and come up with balanced large scale army rules for each race? That doesn't attract new players.

 

So they come out with the skirmish game. Round bases, small number of models. How does that translate to a large army? Are people really going to jump from a 20 model force to a 100+ model force on square bases? No. It is much easier to build them up to a 40 model force...and then a 60 model force...all on round bases, all using the same rule set. At no point does that roll over to a large square based army.

 

So what you'll have are new books that focus most of the rules and lists for the skirmish game. If GW wants to be really smart, then they also include an addendum to the 8th army list with whatever new model they pushed out. So if you are a skirmish player, the majority of the book is for you. If you are a square baser, then there's a reason for you to buy the new models for your existing army.

 

What you won't see are army books like 8th edition. You won't see a Bretonnian army book to replace the current one. That won't sell models. What you should end up getting are Bretonnian faction books, with small sets of units that are nicely themed. The book will let you field a coherent force for the skirmish game that you can ally with other forces.

 

They don't need to focus on the large scale game. They have a good rule set, they will release minor tweaks to it, and then be done. They will focus on getting new players to the system, which means skirmish/40K style gameplay. Looser, simpler, and easy to scale from small to medium. I wouldn't be surprised if the current regiment boxes for fantasy eventually become web store only. It won't cost them much to keep that option open for players.

 

Getting people to play small skirmish games is not going to entice them to play large scale games. There just isn't a transition there.

 

A lot of what you say does make sense... but do you really think they are going to invalidate the thousands of square-basers already in existence? Are you actually thinking that they are essentially wiping the slate clean and starting from scratch... 'Re-base your old figs... or start over'?

 

There were posts made tonight where GW has set this coming Saturday as the date that stores will be pulling the current rules, starter set, and army books from the shelves, as well as movement trays, templates, and a few other things. If the new rules were 'compatible' with 8th ed - why would they yank the army books off the shelves? Or for that matter, the rulebooks, templates, etc?

 

I think assuming that because the skirmish game might be on round bases is enough to assume there won't be a 'mass battles' version of the game, is a little premature. This is precisely what they did with LotR and WotR - round based figs for the skirmish game were put on rectangular bases for mass-battle combat. So GW has actually demonstrated the ability for there to be the 'transition' that you allude to. Doesn't mean that's what they are going to do, but as a player of both of those games, I think it worked incredibly well, and could work in WH.

 

And what of all the 'big figs' (including all those End Times figs) that arguably wouldn't work very well in a 'skirmish setting'? Do you believe that the new version is simply going to drop them all from existence? Or will players simply have to keep their 8th edition stuff handy if they ever want to use them again?

 

What you're describing is about as close to a 'reset' of the game that we've ever seen, going all the way back to 1st ed. I am not saying it's impossible, and it may very well be what we end up seeing. But it would definitely be one of the most shocking things I've ever seen GW do.

[rudra34]

My opinion, and please, I don't want to start a big fight here...

 

...is that this edition will be the 9th out of 9 editions of warhammer fantasy.

[indytims]

My opinion, and please, I don't want to start a big fight here...

 

...is that this edition will be the 9th out of 9 editions of warhammer fantasy.

 

 

Man... we were having a PERFECTLY reasonable, calm discussion until you came along and dropped that bomb on us.

 

Now. It's all RUINED. :)

[valourunbound]

My opinion, and please, I don't want to start a big fight here...

 

...is that this edition will be the 9th out of 9 editions of warhammer fantasy.

Who knows, this could be the first edition of a new game that is closely related to Wahammer Fantasy.

[dkieft]

My opinion, and please, I don't want to start a big fight here...

 

...is that this edition will be the 9th out of 9 editions of warhammer fantasy.

What if they pull a Microsoft and blow right on by to Warhammer 10?

[Brother Glacius]

How does releasing a ruleset that is compatible with the 8th ed army books invalidating the current collections? GW simply has no reason to release new army books to the same scope and scale as they did with previous editions. That sort of game, eventually fails to meet their sales expectations. A skirmish game won't get people to buy a full fantasy army. They need to reinvent fantasy. They need to find that magic formula where it appears to be easier to get into. The large scale fantasy doesn't fit that image. What does fit, are smaller factions that can work together.

 

And I'm sorry, but GW doesn't care about what you own. They only care about what you are willing to buy. If I can keep the mob from rioting by releasing compatible rules with their existing models, but tempt them with a new game and format which requires you to buy new models....oh yeah, there is no doubt that is what I'd do. And of course they are going to pull existing stuff from the shelves. If you are trying to push a new format, you don't want the old one to get in the way.

 

And again, these are my musing, my speculations. I just don't see why GW would want to lead people to a format of the game which already was proven not to work out for them. What is working for them is 40K. My bet is that they will take fantasy more in that direction.

[fluger]

 J/K fluger lol

 

[intrizic]

Hey!  Do you guys smell that?  I think a 40k player did sneak onto our forum!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 J/K fluger lol

Hey I resemble that remark...

[JMGraham]

 

Why did Fantasy fail? From most accounts, 8th edition was well liked.

Selective memory! While 8th has grown to be better liked, there was a huge exodus from Fantasy when 8th came along. A lot of people didn't like it at all and we saw lots of long time players switching to Warmachine or other games by smaller companies. At that time, we were spoiled for choice when it came to unique, well-supported games that had a much lower cost of entry. Fantasy has recovered somewhat since that initial downturn, but I don't see it as having got back to where it was before. Might just be my perception, though.

 

I can say that the market has changed the point where we have a lot more game choice than before. GWs cost of entry is much higher than other games, and their support is worse (nonexistent, I guess). Their models are still the best, but other companies are catching up (and still vastly superior to what we used to have). Add to that GWs prices and lack of transparency....

 

I'm curious and interested to see what 9th brings, but I'm not getting my hopes up. I have a lot of games I enjoy playing, and while I want Fantasy to be a big part of my gaming life, it doesn't have to be.

[generalripphook]

From personally experience for LoTR and the War of the Ring there is a vast majority of people that play the skirmish game and very few that play War of the Ring. 

 

Also from playing War of the Ring you can see why, it sucks. 

[indytims]

From personally experience for LoTR and the War of the Ring there is a vast majority of people that play the skirmish game and very few that play War of the Ring. 

 

Also from playing War of the Ring you can see why, it sucks. 

 

War of the Ring had terrible potential for cheese that would make Kraft envious.

 

But played with level-headed friends, it was a -blast- to play. I had more fun with it than the vast majority of time I've spent with WHFB, through any edition going back to 3rd.

 

The main point was, though, that the skirmish game (LotR) was based with round bases (ala 40K), while the mass-battles game was played with rectangular 'rank and file' bases. GW had a system that used such a mechanic, and that definitely wasn't part of WotR's issues. Someone had claimed there was no way to do such a thing - when in fact, GW -has- done it already with one of their own game systems, and the mechanic worked well enough.

[indytims]

How does releasing a ruleset that is compatible with the 8th ed army books invalidating the current collections? GW simply has no reason to release new army books to the same scope and scale as they did with previous editions. That sort of game, eventually fails to meet their sales expectations. A skirmish game won't get people to buy a full fantasy army. They need to reinvent fantasy. They need to find that magic formula where it appears to be easier to get into. The large scale fantasy doesn't fit that image. What does fit, are smaller factions that can work together.

 

And I'm sorry, but GW doesn't care about what you own. They only care about what you are willing to buy. If I can keep the mob from rioting by releasing compatible rules with their existing models, but tempt them with a new game and format which requires you to buy new models....oh yeah, there is no doubt that is what I'd do. And of course they are going to pull existing stuff from the shelves. If you are trying to push a new format, you don't want the old one to get in the way.

 

And again, these are my musing, my speculations. I just don't see why GW would want to lead people to a format of the game which already was proven not to work out for them. What is working for them is 40K. My bet is that they will take fantasy more in that direction.

 

Do you really think they're going to create a skirmish rules set that functions well with 500+ point models? I've played enough skirmish games to know that those games break down rather quickly - or become so bloated that they aren't really 'skirmish' anymore. But like I already asked - why would GW remove the 8th edition books and army books, if the new rules are completely compatible with 8th edition? Again - I am not saying they won't be, I just don't see the logical leap you're making.

 

Of course GW doesn't care about the figs they've already sold you - that's money in the bank to them. They only care about what they -can- sell you. But they also know there are thousands of players out there with huge FB armies already - can they sell us a Mass Battles rules-set? Given that they already have a pre-established player base - yes, of course they can. But going to something completely different would mean even those players would likely have to buy something new, which is what they want to do. I'd just be surprised if they release 'Age of Sigmar', and it ends up being '8th Edition Skirmish Battles'. And I suppose if they go through any sort of pains to allow your current figs to be compatible - then just maybe they -do- care about the stuff you've already bought?

 

As for the format proving it doesn't work - I would have to disagree with you there. The format has seemed to work for 20+ years for them. Some folks post 'numbers' that show sales for FB are way low the past few years. Others post the opposite. Who to believe? I guess I just figure that if the Mass Battles format has been proven to 'not work', I would have to wonder why it took them over twenty years to figure that out. "Hey, it's GW!" That could be reason enough I suppose! LOL.

 

But I definitely could see an FB version that more closely resembled 40K. That would certainly make sense. Then again... if they are -too- similar, why would anyone bother playing both? Aesthetics?

[King Mekhet]

I really don't think that WHFB is failing as hard as people think it is. I think GW is simply looking at the product and realizing that their sales volumes are staying roughly stagnant while the HUGE number of new entrants to the genre shows very clearly that there is room for growth that they're simply not capturing.

Thus why I really don't believe that GW is going to simply abandon mass battle. *ESPECIALLY* after they produced all these wonderful End Times books, which were quite expensive and clearly weren't meant to simply eke out a bit of extra money from us before they throw us to the wolves. That's not something a publicly traded, for-profit company does.

No...much more likely that the End Times was conceived of as a marketing blitz to drum up support for their new product: a GW entrant into the small-to-medium scale skirmish genre. Everyone who plays WHFB knows that it breaks down once you drop below 1,000 points. As well that the price of entry into the hobby is enormously large, and is a huge factor in driving off new players.



As for GW caring about the models we own...of course they care. It might be money in the bank to them, but they also anchor us to their product. Invalidate someone's range of models and suddenly they're not loyal customers anymore. That's been GW's business plan all along: use that initial investment to convince people to buy more models. Thus the incremental codex shifts, where a few units that were good in the old codex become bad, and the bad units become good. The better looking units have worse rules, while the uglier units have the best rules.

What does giving us a new edition do for GW? It shifts the goal posts, and causes us to buy a few different models here or there to keep our armies updated. Releasing a skirmish game? It makes it easier for us to start a new army to use in skirmish. Add in ally rules to the mass battle game? Suddenly we have a reason to GROW that skirmish force, so that we can ally it into our existing game.


Same thing they did with End Times. The TK armybook sold out almost immediately after Nagash was released...because of VC players buying it to add into their armies. The VC book then sold out, on the backs of the Lore of Undeath. We got models available to several armies at once. Get enough undead models for Undeath and suddenly you're most of the way to a VC army. And then a TK army.


....all of which is substantially the same as what they've done with WH40K. No big shocks there.