InfestedKerrigan Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Bang Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 lol! pretty close, just not angrily! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Bang Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Didn't really feel like getting sucked into a troll war arguing over my own opinions with pretre. he's already demonstrated an inability to get what I'm saying, and I've said all I wanted to say about it, so it's cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 It all comes back to RAW vs RAI and a subjective interpretation of our own life experiences providing rose colored glasses on the garbage we produce. Have a Cigar! Boy, you're gonna go far. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Bang Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 The band is just fantastic, that is really what I think! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 I love how when a discussion doesn't go someone's way that makes the other party a troll. :roll eyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Bang Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 And I love it when I say it's cool and drop the subject and the person still tries to ruffle my feathers and keep the discussion going. :roll eyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 Not trying to ruffle your feathers. Generally, when someone wants a discussion to stop though they don't try to take a parting shot. ;) If you did intend to end it, the best way is to stop posting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Bang Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 It's like we're playing Last Word now or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 Look, it's been a really good discussion and I think we all can agree that a lot of very good points were made on all sides, but in the end everyone has their own opinions about things and my opinion is objectively the most correct. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 Look, it's been a really good discussion and I think we all can agree that a lot of very good points were made on all sides, but in the end everyone has their own opinions about things and my opinion is objectively the most correct. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Bang Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 Where does he get all those wonderful gif's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 Where does he get all those wonderful gif's? THE INTERNETS!11!!!1!!!1!! XD 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 If you Google, they will come. - Kevin Costner, probably Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 By the way, which one is Pink? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Bang Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talonwinter Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 Look, it's been a really good discussion and I think we all can agree that a lot of very good points were made on all sides, but in the end everyone has their own opinions about things and my opinion is objectively the most correct. I will have to say I didn't expect to find 2 pages of discussion on this after a day off from school. I understand your view point and it is yours and some agree and some don't . As for you being objectively correct I will disagree. I agree with some of what Aaron Bang said. Some of what you say makes since from your view point. Personally, I will agree to see things differently then you. You where making a point so it was ok for you to be That Guy. Heck you even said it to a couple people at the tournament that you where being that GUY, with a smile. For me being That Guy is never expectable, even when making a point. For you that's not a problem. You seamed to enjoy it. I couldn't. There was and are better ways to make your point with out sinking to that level. Others on here have said since the list is valid so "no harm or foul." I disagree. Their is never a reason to be that guy. Just how I see it. You say you like close games with good list. With the tournaments format you knew that was not going to happen with the list you where taking. As you said no one was at your playing level so why not bring a list that challenges yourself and gives your opponent something of chance to win VS your skill? With your skills and knowledge of the game you don't have to be that Guy to make a point. When you help make people not want to play at a tournament because of things like that it just rubs me wrong. Case in point I had two people stop by and see what was going on. But the saw the 3 wraith knights and said why would the waste their time with paying money to have to play that. They are fairly new to the hobby and I been trying to get them to come to tournaments. This really turned them off. Sorry that's how I see it. Where does he get all those wonderful gif's? I was wondering the same. LOL some of those are really good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Bang Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 ^^this guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indytims Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 Wow, what an interesting read. :) I can see excellent points on all sides, to be honest. But honestly - once you throw the word 'Tournament' out there, the 'social contract' changes. It -has- to. The environment of your game setting has shifted. Instead of me and pretre sitting in his garage with two moderate lists, rolling dice to have fun, a Tournament by its very nature is a 'bring your best beat stick' in order to give you the best chance to pound 3-4 other people into the ground and score as high as you can. Why have brackets, otherwise? Why keep score? Why do any of the activities that encourages and denotes a 'competitive' environment, where the goal is to score as many points as possible, and to do this, use the best list possible? Of course, that's one of the primary reasons I don't do tournaments anymore. I have far more fun playing a relaxed game in pretre's garage than I do playing in a tournament setting where I -know- the other guy's "social contract" is bent more on my utter destruction, than actually making sure we both enjoy the game. A tournament setting really isn't conducive to that, at least not in all tournaments I've attended since 1990, across a dozen states. But of course, that experience is anecdotal. I greatly appreciate Aaron's mindset on 'just because you can, doesn't mean you should'. I am like that very much in casual play. Pretre himself and anyone else I've played with can tell you that I don't use WKs, loads of scatter-bikes, or hordes of Wraithguard with d-scythes. I feel these units are broken and easily abusable (for the most part). However, they -are- part of the printed rules, and the TO at this tournament you all are referring to allowed them. Ultimately, that's all that matters. What one person thinks 'should' be played or not played, could be totally different than the guy next to him. I have fellow Eldar players who have literally called me a 'tard' because I DON'T use WK's or go all-scatterbikes. That's cool. They're entitled to their opinion. But I know if I used those troops, especially en masse, they likely wouldn't want to game with me again. I -want- people to -want- to play with me. I think most of us want that, too. But in this case, was AP following the rules? Sounds like he was. Based on that, it's really hard for me to agree with someone who is criticizing someone who actually followed the rules. If anything, the rules are to blame - not the player. I know I know, the player makes the conscious choice when building their army, but if they are following the rules in a -tournament- setting, I find it very difficult to criticize them. That being said... I've only been on this site for 4-5 months or so. In that small amount of time, I think I've gotten a good feel for who on this forum knows their stuff and a decent feel for how they each play the game. I've always figured AP for one of those 'gaming god' type guys, who I could trust to know all the rules, and play a fair and balanced game. Finding out tonight that he was the guy with 3 WK's?... well, I kinda feel like that one chick who pulled the blue curtain aside to learn there's really no Wizard. Not like AP would care what some stranger thinks, but I had it in my head that he could have romped a tournament like that -without- resorting to 3 WKs. ;) Maybe he could have. But in the end, he won the show, played in the spirit of a competitive environment, and followed all the rules. I just find it hard to make a fellow player feel badly for doing that. Rather than come down on him and expect him to change how he plays (especially when it's within the rules provided), I'd look harder at the rules themselves. Limits/restrictions/comp... whatever needs to be done. Because putting out rules, and then -hoping- that people will essentially ignore those rules and play with some sort of abstract 'social rule set' in a tournament environment I just don't think will ever really work... Just my 2 coppers here. I am not intending any of this as an attack on AP, Aaron, or President Obama. -Tim 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 Yeah, that's the thing. Once you make it a Tournament, with formalized brackets and restrictions, those are the rules that are to be played by, and the goal is to win the Tournament. There may be other personal goals as well, like the time I went down to Terracrux not caring what happened as long as I got to throw a Tank at someone with my Thunderstrike Gauntlet, but the point of a Tournament is to win the Tournament, and in this case, that was defined by the event page as winning all four of your Games. This sort of thing is why OFCC has been moving more towards just presenting itself as an "Event" rather than a "Tournament" over the last few years. Because the use of "Tournament" strongly implies that the goal is to win all your matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted October 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 Look, it's been a really good discussion and I think we all can agree that a lot of very good points were made on all sides, but in the end everyone has their own opinions about things and my opinion is objectively the most correct. Lol. That was awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 That being said... I've only been on this site for 4-5 months or so. In that small amount of time, I think I've gotten a good feel for who on this forum knows their stuff and a decent feel for how they each play the game. I've always figured AP for one of those 'gaming god' type guys, who I could trust to know all the rules, and play a fair and balanced game. Finding out tonight that he was the guy with 3 WK's?... well, I kinda feel like that one chick who pulled the blue curtain aside to learn there's really no Wizard. Not like AP would care what some stranger thinks, but I had it in my head that he could have romped a tournament like that -without- resorting to 3 WKs. ;) Maybe he could have. I like to think I could've won the tournament without "resorting" to using three WKs, also; certainly it wasn't the only list that I wrote for it. But as I said before: why handicap myself? I know Alex as a pretty good player- could he have one without using Scatter Bikes or a single WK? I bet he potentially could've. Could he have also won when playing with an 1800pt list rather than a 2000pt list? Hey, maybe he could've! Could he have won if he only brought units that have an even number of models in them? Heck, it's not beyond the realm of possibility. We can imagine any number of ways in which the bracket champions might've handicapped themselves and weakened their lists. The question is- why? If you're playing to win, why bring a list that is weaker than the rules permit? Why intentionally give your opponents an advantage? No one would expect me to play the game rolling d4s instead of d6s as a limiter, or to spot my opponent twenty victory points at the beginning of the game just because I can, or to play by 4E rules and never premeasure. It's certainly possible I could win with any of those handicaps, but why would anyone expect me to? To "prove" to everyone that I'm The Besterest General Around and I can win a fight with one hand tied behind my back? I don't think that poorly of my opponents, nor is my ego that heavily invested into this game. Again, I don't necessarily think that LH's rules for the tournament were the perfect ideal of balanced competition, but that's not my decision to make nor within my power to change. The rules of the tournament are what they are, and I play the best game I can within their context. When I go home the next day I may play a goofy game with my friends using Guardians, Vypers, and Fire Prisms, but if I'm at a tournament I don't feel any particular obligation to pull punches in the list-writing step because that's not what tournaments are about. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indytims Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 I like to think I could've won the tournament without "resorting" to using three WKs, also; certainly it wasn't the only list that I wrote for it. But as I said before: why handicap myself? I know Alex as a pretty good player- could he have one without using Scatter Bikes or a single WK? I bet he potentially could've. Could he have also won when playing with an 1800pt list rather than a 2000pt list? Hey, maybe he could've! Could he have won if he only brought units that have an even number of models in them? Heck, it's not beyond the realm of possibility. We can imagine any number of ways in which the bracket champions might've handicapped themselves and weakened their lists. The question is- why? If you're playing to win, why bring a list that is weaker than the rules permit? Why intentionally give your opponents an advantage? No one would expect me to play the game rolling d4s instead of d6s as a limiter, or to spot my opponent twenty victory points at the beginning of the game just because I can, or to play by 4E rules and never premeasure. It's certainly possible I could win with any of those handicaps, but why would anyone expect me to? To "prove" to everyone that I'm The Besterest General Around and I can win a fight with one hand tied behind my back? I don't think that poorly of my opponents, nor is my ego that heavily invested into this game. Again, I don't necessarily think that LH's rules for the tournament were the perfect ideal of balanced competition, but that's not my decision to make nor within my power to change. The rules of the tournament are what they are, and I play the best game I can within their context. When I go home the next day I may play a goofy game with my friends using Guardians, Vypers, and Fire Prisms, but if I'm at a tournament I don't feel any particular obligation to pull punches in the list-writing step because that's not what tournaments are about. While I agree with your overall message - your examples are a bit hyperbolic, AP. ;) Using d4s instead of d6s? Not in the rules as far as I know. Using 1800 points instead of 2000? I suppose that would be legal I guess? Spotting your opponent VP? Again, I don't think that's even allowed by the rules, is it? Using your ~900 points of WK's on ~900 points of something less beardy? Definitely within the rules. No one has asked you to break rules, cheat yourself out of 200 points, or give away free VPs before the game starts. But I think you'd be hard-pressed to argue that you couldn't have used those points from 3 WK's on something else competitive to keep your list around 2k, and I'm pretty sure you'd be even more hard-pressed to argue that 3 WK's isn't a nice trip into cheddar-land... Which was completely legal. *Should* you have used those points on something else? Not if your overall goal was to win the tournament. BUT - it's also not your -responsibility- to explain yourself, either. Not in a tournament setting. Sportsmanship and the 'casual social contract' take a very distant back-seat to Win-At-All-Costs. A Tournament is designed as king of the hill, and at the end, to be at the top of that hill, chances are pretty high you have to maximize your every effort, which includes army list building. To me, there's a 'Tournament Social Contract' that goes something along the lines of, "Your fun-level is secondary to my VP level". It's why some folks don't bother with the tournament setting, while some folks love it. Different strokes and all that. "Pulling Punches" and "Tournament setting" really don't go together. Some folks learn this the hard way. Some folks get turned off to tournaments as a whole, and some even get turned off from the game itself completely. Others adapt and start to do the same thing. As long as it's all within the rules the TO has set, folks really lose a lot of ground to complain from. -Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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