pretre Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Just to recap, so you don't have to scroll back to read what you wrote: Aaron Bang, on 11 Oct 2015 - 5:45 PM, said: Not meaning any disrespect, but it seemed to give the eldar an edge. I certainly heard a couple other players mentioning it seemed a bit unfair. Might have made a house rule allowing a Lord of War choice for each army, on conversely disallowing lords altogether to level the playing field. Aaron Bang, on 11 Oct 2015 - 6:12 PM, said: Agreed. Again, not sour grapes, and hats off to you and Alex, but I hope Joe takes that into account for the next one. Aaron Bang, on 12 Oct 2015 - 12:39 PM, said: I'd like to add just one more thing to this. It has been suggested by Abusepuppy that his ability to field the 3 WK's is not his responsibility, but rather that of the rules of the game. There is some merit to this, however, there is also the idea of 'just because you can doesn't mean you should.'. In 4th edition, I played the Iron Warriors. I won with them. Over and over again, I won. I got to the point where my army was pretty much placed on the table and I would let it do it's thing. It's this way with the Elder, Tau, and Neurons now. There is no real strategy to it--your armies do what they do, they do it consistently, and they do it very well. Personally, and I hope that you take it this way, not as a criticism of your game play, I got bored with that style of play, which led me to choose an underpowered army as a challenge for 5th and 6th edition--Imperial Guard/Astra Militarum. This of course led me to the Militarum Tempests. Long story short, there is a challenge to those armies which do not have a "place on table, win game' approach, and I have found that my opponents have a much better experience too. Point is, it is not all on the tournament organizer or the rules to make sure that you have a list that isn't going to make people want to take you out back and beat the snot out of you in some shady back alley--you also have some slight responsibility to play competitively but not take away from your well deserved victory due to a rule loophole. Aaron Bang, on 12 Oct 2015 - 4:09 PM, said: Sean, you misunderstand my intent. I am not arguing your composition or legality. What I am saying is, that *you* chose to bring that list becuase you could. Trying to say that it wasn't your fault because it was allowed in the rules of the tournament is valid to a point, however *you* are the one that chose to bring it, so you, too, share the responsibility of using that list. It's a WAAC list, pure and simple. Unfortunately, in my opinion, the list you brought detracts from your victory and reputation as a good general because it was so WAAC, and I hope that the mutterings and nasty commentary that you were hearing from people after seeing and playing against your list might act as a personal lesson to you about playing that way in the future. I don't think in this case that it was just sour grapes, because I'd say at least 2/3rds of the armies there couldn't deal with even a single Superheavy or Gargantuan Creature, as evidenced by the top winning lists (so maybe the estimate should have been more like 100% of the armies couldn't deal with it?). As I said before, just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Aaron Bang, on 12 Oct 2015 - 4:47 PM, said: There are only two codices that currently have a super heavy or gargantuan creature as a lord of war, though. The meta probably should have disallowed the two super heavies, imo, to level the playing field. It hardly would have hamstringed either the Orks or the Eldar without them. Incidentally, that still would have left both Eldar and Orks with LoW choices (Avatar and Ghazkhul), and would have saved Joe headache and having AP to have to look over his shoulder as he was taking his $200 worth of loot to his car. :) Aaron Bang, on 12 Oct 2015 - 5:51 PM, said: Not, just saying to consider not using Super heavies or Gargantuan. Aaron Bang, on 12 Oct 2015 - 6:53 PM, said: I never said that. I just suggested that the playing field be leveled, that's all. also, if you play any ITC format tournament, there is a list of banned units that is far longer. this is the first mention by me of banning. Aaron Bang, on 12 Oct 2015 - 7:13 PM, said: I am doing no railing at all here. However I do, in fact, think that taking those LoW's does detract from your and Alex's victories, though, because the playing field was not even, sorry. I've said nothing about being cheesy or complained about the elder codex. The only point I'm making is that the playing field was not even, and because of that, the victory was lessened, in my opinion. You could have just as easily won without, I believe, and you wouldn't have had people wanting to slash your tires afterwards. Those are cool dice, by the way. Aaron Bang, on 12 Oct 2015 - 7:30 PM, said: I'm sorry--you're still not getting my point, and I apologize for not communicating it to you well. Again, nothing in my posts about social contracts, either. The only thing socially I've expressed is my opinion on taking them. Of course you are correct in saying what you are saying about ITC and the restricted listings and agree that it is the better way to handle things. Again, I think you are missing my point. At this point, I'm not sure if I can communicate with you the point I'm trying to make, except to ask what do you consider the top award of a 40K tournament? Aaron Bang, on 12 Oct 2015 - 9:32 PM, said: That's where we fundamentally differ. You see, to most of the folks in this region, the highest award in a tournament is Best Sportsman, which is to say, you played 3-5 guys in a competitive environment and they all thought you were pretty cool afterwards. Aaron Bang, on 12 Oct 2015 - 9:43 PM, said: That's also why I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this. It's much more important to me to compete for the best sportsman or best painted, since those are the aspects of the hobby I most enjoy. However, my opinion of AP's and Alex's lists are still valid, regardless of the results of the tournament. It remains my hope that AP gains a lesson or insight from this experience beyond the actual top placement results. That's all I'm saying. Aaron Bang, on 13 Oct 2015 - 12:02 AM, said: Sorry, but you are both missing my point. I'm not even complaining about the elder lists. I merely pointed out that the two top lists happen to be the only codex that could bring gargantuan creatures, that I thought it was not merely a coincidence, and that I thought that it somewhat lessened the victory since neither winning list faced anything even remotely capable of dealing with them. all personal opinion, so no arguments from my side. Aaron Bang, on 13 Oct 2015 - 12:33 AM, said: No idea what you mean by moral high horse--just my opinions here. The lesson I hope you take away from this has nothing to do with me or my playstyle or being more like me, trust me. You'll have to look deeper to find it. I'm being very polite and gentlemanly, and am trying to explain it to you in the most polite terms possible. I am not suggesting or endorsing any particular playstyle, as you seem to keep coming back to. I'm not really worried about friends on here, either. My actions and my games with folks speak for themselves.. I've gotten more than my share of all four of the awards, and am in no way covetous of this or any other award that I was in a competition for but did not win. AP, you ever win a best sportsman? It's not easy, and it's pretty great when it happens, believe me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Underlined some bits so you can see what we're saying when we say you are asking to ban units, talking about an unwritten social contract, etc. We don't make this stuff up, this is from what you posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PumpkinHead Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PumpkinHead Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 I had 3.5 great games! It would have been 4, but I had to bail on my 4th round opponent on like turn 3. Lots of fun people and it was fun to get to play different armies every round. A couple of memorable moments: 1) melee winged tyrant, in glide mode, not taking a wound for 20+ high strength shots, then to die in melee combat against BA marines. 2) Melee winged tyrant, (3 wounds left, 3+ save and FNP) being killed in overwatch as he was about to go tear up a dreadknight. 3) Exocrine killing a Chaos Mutiliator in close combat. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgosaurusrex Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 I think my favorite in-game moment was my Culexus Assassin killing WestRider's Chaos Lord in close combat. I rolled a single 6 to wound and WR admitted (paraphrased) "When I saw the Instant Death wound I knew I was going to fail that save" (he did). I wish I hadn't won that game due to the clock but it was still a great game nonetheless. It really was a great tournament. And I would argue that my list (Ultramarines Skyhammer) was about equal with Alex's Eldar. He had to play very well for that final victory, and admitted before the game that he was terrified of my army list. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Bang Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Let's talk about what you believe and what I believe. Not what 'Most people believe'. Did you survey a majority of folks in the PNW? Maybe I did. Maybe to most folks in this region, the highest award in a tournament is meeting me; which is to say 5-10 people met me, had an outstanding time and walked away changed for life. See, doesn't work... Actually, I have done this at most of the regional tournaments here in eastern Washington, and it is by far and away the number one answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Actually, I have done this at most of the regional tournaments here in eastern Washington, and it is by far and away the number one answer. Okay, maybe I'm not being clear here. In your experience, people say that. That does not mean that 'most people around here' actually believe it or that it was a representative sample or even that you are telling the truth. What it really means is that 'in your opinion, Best Sportsman is the most important award'. Projecting past that is not helpful. Unless you have hard data, it is best to avoid this kind of argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Or to put it another way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Bang Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Pretre, you have way too much time on your hands, man! lol! I'm quite clear about what I said, but thanks for the recap. overall, it was tl/dr. conversations do have a habit of rambling at times, granted, but my point has remained the same throughout, as I believe you recapped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Pretre, you have way too much time on your hands, man! lol! I'm quite clear about what I said, but thanks for the recap. overall, it was tl/dr. conversations do have a habit of rambling at times, granted, but my point has remained the same throughout, as I believe you recapped. Except for the points where you say you didn't say something and you actually did, you're right. :) edit: Also, it takes very little time to cut and paste using multi-quote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Bang Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 You mean hard data like when the tournament organizers say, 'and now, the most important award at this tournament?' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 You mean hard data like when the tournament organizers say, 'and now, the most important award at this tournament?' That gives us data for that tournament and what the tournament organizers believe. That does not tell us what 'most folks in this region' believe. Heck, it doesn't even tell us what most people at that event believe. And here is where you said that 'most folks in the region' believe that Best sportsman is the top award (not most TOs), in case you forget: You see, to most of the folks in this region, the highest award in a tournament is Best Sportsman, which is to say, you played 3-5 guys in a competitive environment and they all thought you were pretty cool afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted October 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 I had 3.5 great games! It would have been 4, but I had to bail on my 4th round opponent on like turn 3. Lots of fun people and it was fun to get to play different armies every round. A couple of memorable moments: 1) melee winged tyrant, in glide mode, not taking a wound for 20+ high strength shots, then to die in melee combat against BA marines. 2) Melee winged tyrant, (3 wounds left, 3+ save and FNP) being killed in overwatch as he was about to go tear up a dreadknight. 3) Exocrine killing a Chaos Mutiliator in close combat. Nice. I like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted October 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 I think my favorite in-game moment was my Culexus Assassin killing WestRider's Chaos Lord in close combat. I rolled a single 6 to wound and WR admitted (paraphrased) "When I saw the Instant Death wound I knew I was going to fail that save" (he did). I wish I hadn't won that game due to the clock but it was still a great game nonetheless. It really was a great tournament. And I would argue that my list (Ultramarines Skyhammer) was about equal with Alex's Eldar. He had to play very well for that final victory, and admitted before the game that he was terrified of my army list. Yeah Alex told me that he said he would lose because: Skyhammer. Lol. But not THIS day, apparently. Twas good and people can watch the final match on our website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted October 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Except for the points where you say you didn't say something and you actually did, you're right. :) edit: Also, it takes very little time to cut and paste using multi-quote. anywho... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgosaurusrex Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 You mean hard data like when the tournament organizers say, 'and now, the most important award at this tournament?' At the very tournament that this thread is about the Best Sportsmanship prize was not introduced as such. It was one of the first prizes to be announced and was a random drawing based on player votes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgosaurusrex Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Yeah Alex told me that he said he would lose because: Skyhammer. Lol. But not THIS day, apparently. Twas good and people can watch the final match on our website. I built my list with Eldar in mind, so I understand why he was worried about it. He played very well and earned his victory. I'd love to have a rematch though, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Bang Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Like banning and social contract, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Like banning and social contract, right? Right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Bang Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Ok, lol, so now you are asking me to present hard data on conversations where I've talked to people about and the best sportsman is touted as the top prize over the past 15 years that I've been attending or organizing tournaments and game days?... lol, sorry, cannot stop laughing over this one! Ok, at this point I'm just going to withdraw--the conversation is just starting to get silly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Ok, lol, so now you are asking me to present hard data on conversations where I've talked to people about and the best sportsman is touted as the top prize over the past 15 years that I've been attending or organizing tournaments and game days?... lol, sorry, cannot stop laughing over this one! Ok, at this point I'm just going to withdraw--the conversation is just starting to get silly No. I'm telling you that unless you have hard data, your claim of 'most folks in the region' believing something holds no more value than you saying 'I believe something'. It is anecdotal. Conversations are often silly when people try to treat subjective beliefs as objective facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted October 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 No offense but this is going nowhere and its a forum for OPINIONS. So there is EXPLICITLY no need for scientific studies in order to express one. Lol. anywho... Let's move this right along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 No offense but this is going nowhere and its a forum for OPINIONS. So there is EXPLICITLY no need for scientific studies in order to express one. Lol. anywho... Let's move this right along. I have no problem with him expressing his opinion. I have reminded him of his opinions on various issues. What I do have a problem with is trying to extend your opinion to a vast, faceless mass of other people in order to lend it weight. For example: - I believe Best Overall is the most important award at a tournament. (This is an example of my opinion.) - Most people believe that Best Overall is the most important award at a tournament. (This is an example of an unsupported fact and is not just my opinion.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 I think my favorite in-game moment was my Culexus Assassin killing WestRider's Chaos Lord in close combat. I rolled a single 6 to wound and WR admitted (paraphrased) "When I saw the Instant Death wound I knew I was going to fail that save" (he did). I wish I hadn't won that game due to the clock but it was still a great game nonetheless. It really was a great tournament. And I would argue that my list (Ultramarines Skyhammer) was about equal with Alex's Eldar. He had to play very well for that final victory, and admitted before the game that he was terrified of my army list. I think I kind of mumbled it a bit, but what I was actually trying to say is that, since I had a 4+ Invul, as soon as I passed the Save for the non-Instant Death Wound, I knew I was going to fail it for the ID one :P Your brother also punked out my Lord with an Instant Death Wound, and you two were the only ones to drop him at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted October 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 I think I kind of mumbled it a bit, but what I was actually trying to say is that, since I had a 4+ Invul, as soon as I passed the Save for the non-Instant Death Wound, I knew I was going to fail it for the ID one :P Your brother also punked out my Lord with an Instant Death Wound, and you two were the only ones to drop him at all. Isnt that always the way though. Lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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