October 10 2015 AMBASSADORIAL TOURNAMENT

[Lord Hanaur]

Hey Abusepuppy, you should take pictures of your championship dice and post 'em.  

[AbusePuppy]

Sean, you misunderstand my intent.  I am not arguing your composition or legality.  What I am saying is, that *you* chose to bring that list becuase you could.  Trying to say that it wasn't your fault because it was allowed in the rules of the tournament is valid to a point, however *you* are the one that chose to bring it, so you, too, share the responsibility of using that list. 

 

Sure, I chose to bring it- no argument there. But so what? The list was legal, no one is arguing that. You seem to be saying that there is an additional set of "imaginary" restrictions above and beyond the actual list-writing restrictions and that violating them is somehow my fault? And on that I call B.S.- because if we are going to be able to make up additional rules post-facto to impose on their opponents, there is going to be no end. I could just as easily call Alex's victory "tainted" because he used more Str D guns than I did, or any number of other rationalizations.

 

The rules of the tournament are the rules. I had no part in writing those rules- and, in fact, I have argued against several of them both here and elsewhere because I don't think they serve the goals of the tournament as well as they could. But that's not my decision to make. If you don't like the rules as they're set up, there is absolutely zero point in railing at me for following those rules because I have no power to change them. I could decide to arbitrarily limit myself, but that wouldn't stop anyone else who wanted to do the same thing I did- and if LH hadn't changed things, they quite easily could've, fielding triple-WK or triple-Stormsurge next time around.

 

 

It's a WAAC list, pure and simple.  Unfortunately, in my opinion, the list you brought detracts from your victory and reputation as a good general because it was so WAAC, and I hope that the mutterings and nasty commentary that you were hearing from people after seeing and playing against your list might act as a personal lesson to you about playing that way in the future.

 

Of course it's a list built for winning- I was trying to win. Why would you think that would "teach me a lesson"? Did your own list getting its teeth kicked in "teach you a lesson" about writing better armies? No, of course not, because the army was doing what you wanted it to- and so was mine.

 

If you think writing a strong list "detracts from my victory" then I would also have to assume that you consider Alex's victory tainted- after all, he was running most all of the same so-called cheesy units I was, so his generalship would have to be just as much in question as my own.

 

 

Hey Abusepuppy, you should take pictures of your championship dice and post 'em.  

 

 

I really liked that the championship dice were purple- it's a great-looking color and I always like collecting more unique dice. (This isn't actually the full set, which was 24 like the others.)

[pretre]

Not, just saying to consider not using Super heavies or Gargantuan. 

That's banning. Just come out and say it if you want to ban them. Don't say 'Real competitors don't use LOW/GC'.

[Lord Hanaur]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I really liked that the championship dice were purple- it's a great-looking color and I always like collecting more unique dice. (This isn't actually the full set, which was 24 like the others.)

Nice.  I did love that color.  That was ALMOST going to be the color instead of green and Bronze, but I mean they both looked too good to pass up.  I forgot to order enough of the championship  color for myself so I could keep a set for posterity and such.  Do you think you could post it in the Facebook group as well?  

[WestRider]

Early bird gets the worm.

Getting up earlier than me is hard when I'm staying up all night :D

[Aaron Bang]

That's banning. Just come out and say it if you want to ban them. Don't say 'Real competitors don't use LOW/GC'.

 

I never said that.  I just suggested that the playing field be leveled, that's all.  also, if you play any ITC format tournament, there is a list of banned units that is far longer.  this is the first mention by me of banning.

[pretre]

I never said that.  I just suggested that the playing field be leveled, that's all.  also, if you play any ITC format tournament, there is a list of banned units that is far longer.  this is the first mention by me of banning.

That's my point; if you're going to ban something by social contract or however you want to put it, then just ban it. ITC doesn't say 'Well, you CAN take X, but you're a jerk if you do...' it says 'You can't take X'. I think that's the better way to handle things.

[WestRider]

Yeah, I would much rather just be told beforehand not to bring something than to passive-aggressively get a 3/20 on my Comp Score after the fact for taking too many Rokkits in an Ork List. Just to bring up one example that's still a sore point with me over 15 years later.

[Aaron Bang]

 

Sure, I chose to bring it- no argument there. But so what? The list was legal, no one is arguing that. You seem to be saying that there is an additional set of "imaginary" restrictions above and beyond the actual list-writing restrictions and that violating them is somehow my fault? And on that I call B.S.- because if we are going to be able to make up additional rules post-facto to impose on their opponents, there is going to be no end. I could just as easily call Alex's victory "tainted" because he used more Str D guns than I did, or any number of other rationalizations.

 

The rules of the tournament are the rules. I had no part in writing those rules- and, in fact, I have argued against several of them both here and elsewhere because I don't think they serve the goals of the tournament as well as they could. But that's not my decision to make. If you don't like the rules as they're set up, there is absolutely zero point in railing at me for following those rules because I have no power to change them. I could decide to arbitrarily limit myself, but that wouldn't stop anyone else who wanted to do the same thing I did- and if LH hadn't changed things, they quite easily could've, fielding triple-WK or triple-Stormsurge next time around.

 

 

Of course it's a list built for winning- I was trying to win. Why would you think that would "teach me a lesson"? Did your own list getting its teeth kicked in "teach you a lesson" about writing better armies? No, of course not, because the army was doing what you wanted it to- and so was mine.

 

If you think writing a strong list "detracts from my victory" then I would also have to assume that you consider Alex's victory tainted- after all, he was running most all of the same so-called cheesy units I was, so his generalship would have to be just as much in question as my own.

 

 

 

 

 

I really liked that the championship dice were purple- it's a great-looking color and I always like collecting more unique dice. (This isn't actually the full set, which was 24 like the others.)

 

I am doing no railing at all here.  However I do, in fact, think that taking those LoW's does detract from your and Alex's victories, though, because the playing field was not even, sorry.  I've said nothing about being cheesy or  complained about the elder codex.  The only point I'm making is that the playing field was not even, and because of that, the victory was lessened, in my opinion.  You could have just as easily won without, I believe, and you wouldn't have had people wanting to slash your tires afterwards.  Those are cool dice, by the way.

[Lord Hanaur]

Getting up earlier than me is hard when I'm staying up all night :D

word.

[pretre]

I am doing no railing at all here. However I do, in fact, think that taking those LoW's does detract from your and Alex's victories, though, because the playing field was not even, sorry. I've said nothing about being cheesy or complained about the elder codex. The only point I'm making is that the playing field was not even, and because of that, the victory was lessened, in my opinion. You could have just as easily won without, I believe, and you wouldn't have had people wanting to slash your tires afterwards. Those are cool dice, by the way.

It's not up to the players to level the playing field. Especially when you have no idea what the playing field is going to be until lists are revealed. It was a competitive tournament with list requirements; it is only reasonable to design toward that goal.

[Aaron Bang]

That's my point; if you're going to ban something by social contract or however you want to put it, then just ban it. ITC doesn't say 'Well, you CAN take X, but you're a jerk if you do...' it says 'You can't take X'. I think that's the better way to handle things.

 

I'm sorry--you're still not getting my point, and I apologize for not communicating it to you well.  Again, nothing in my posts about social contracts, either.  The only thing socially I've expressed is my opinion on taking them.  Of course you are correct in saying what you are saying about ITC and the restricted listings and agree that it is the better way to handle things. 

 

It's not up to the players to level the playing field. Especially when you have no idea what the playing field is going to be until lists are revealed. It was a competitive tournament with list requirements; it is only reasonable to design toward that goal.

Again, I think you are missing my point. At this point, I'm not sure if I can communicate with you the point I'm trying to make, except to ask what do you consider the top award of a 40K tournament? 

[AbusePuppy]

Nice.  I did love that color.  That was ALMOST going to be the color instead of green and Bronze, but I mean they both looked too good to pass up.  I forgot to order enough of the championship  color for myself so I could keep a set for posterity and such.  Do you think you could post it in the Facebook group as well?  

Once I'm in the group, sure. :P

 

I am doing no railing at all here.  However I do, in fact, think that taking those LoW's does detract from your and Alex's victories, though, because the playing field was not even, sorry.  I've said nothing about being cheesy or  complained about the elder codex.  The only point I'm making is that the playing field was not even, and because of that, the victory was lessened, in my opinion.  You could have just as easily won without, I believe, and you wouldn't have had people wanting to slash your tires afterwards.  Those are cool dice, by the way.

 

The playing field was never going to be even; the codices aren't all equal. The Tempestus book, to take an example, is just a worse version of the IG book- its Orders are arguably on par, but it has far, far fewer options and lacks most of the things that make IG good. It's unfortunate, but true. If you're looking for an even playing field, a tournament that doesn't pigeonhole the players quite so much is probably going to be more to your taste- because with everyone restricted to a single book and only one of each allowed, someone is always gonna get the short end of the straw.

[Lord Hanaur]

Our final four, given the meta at the time have been surprising in many cases.  If anything, Militarum Tempestus is given a more fair hearing because it does not face its perfect counter four times in a row.  

 

Eldar compete in ALL the phases of the game.  Movement?  super mobile.  Psykers?  Great at it.  Shooting?  Great at it!, Asault?  Great at it!

 

So there is no phase in which they are outclassed, and no tournament format is responsible for THAT.  I think that transcends the tournament, the Format, the ITC.

 

But Militarum Tempestus get a much more fair hearing when they know they're not against their hard counter four times in a row.  My Militarum Tempestus seem to fight like Dark eldar in a lot of ways.  Their Taurox Prime should be an Assault Vehicle.  that would have been perfect.  I think that would make for an excellent rules change.  Off the topic but whatevs.  It already was off topic.  Hehehe.

[pretre]

Again, I think you are missing my point. At this point, I'm not sure if I can communicate with you the point I'm trying to make, except to ask what do you consider the top award of a 40K tournament? 

I don't think I'm missing your point; I think you're not allowing for what your point actually comes across as.

 

And generally, the highest award, imo, is 'Best Overall'. IMO, that has problems with being the default Best General as well in some formats, but that's a different thread.

[Aaron Bang]

I don't think I'm missing your point; I think you're not allowing for what your point actually comes across as.

 

And generally, the highest award, imo, is 'Best Overall'. IMO, that has problems with being the default Best General as well in some formats, but that's a different thread.

 

That's where we fundamentally differ.  You see, to most of the folks in this region, the highest award in a tournament is Best Sportsman, which is to say, you played 3-5 guys in a competitive environment and they all thought you were pretty cool afterwards. 

[Aaron Bang]

That's also why I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this.  It's much more important to me to compete for the best sportsman or best painted, since those are the aspects of the hobby I most enjoy.  However, my opinion of AP's and Alex's lists are still valid, regardless of the results of the tournament.  It remains my hope that AP gains a lesson or insight from this experience beyond the actual top placement results.  That's all I'm saying. 

[galahad911]

That's also why I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this.  It's much more important to me to compete for the best sportsman or best painted, since those are the aspects of the hobby I most enjoy.  However, my opinion of AP's and Alex's lists are still valid, regardless of the results of the tournament.  It remains my hope that AP gains a lesson or insight from this experience beyond the actual top placement results.  That's all I'm saying. 

 

So because someone plays at a competitive tournament with intent of winning the event, which differs almost completely to your goal at the same event, then they should be gaining lessons or insight because, reasons? You do realize that people participate in 40k for different reasons and that your reasons are no more valid, or right, or even noble, than anyone else's reason. The implications that you make by saying anyone has a lesson to learn while playing in a 40k tournament make YOU sound like the person who has lessons to learn. 

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

It sounds like you are saying bringing cheese is unsportsmanlike. Problem with your point is cheese is Subjective and if every one brings cheese it's not cheese.

 

If the event doesn't define cheese for you, you can't be blamed for bringing what "some" would call cheese. Hence Pretre and AP's point.

 

Only way to know an events cheese meter is to have bans and comp or have a closed group.

 

Just because an event is posted on Ordo doesn't automatically mean sportsmanship is the most important reward. This event was posted elsewhere attracting people who might not know ordo's philosophy. Therefore it is reasonable to press the bounds of the limit.

 

Aaron you are trying to make a point that is based on a social contract. You might not have used that term but what you are articulating is that. Social contracts are generally unwritten.

 

Don't get wrong you have valid points. If I saw the list at event I would struggle to have motivation to play it. That is a flaw of the event not the player and so I play it because I hope the player is cool about it. There are only a few players I dare not want to play again.

 

Sounds lord made the event fun to be at which kudos I hope to make one of your events sometime.

[AbusePuppy]

That's where we fundamentally differ.  You see, to most of the folks in this region, the highest award in a tournament is Best Sportsman, which is to say, you played 3-5 guys in a competitive environment and they all thought you were pretty cool afterwards. 

 

If I wanted to be in a popularity contest, I'd go back to high school and tell everyone about how Becky told Cindy that she heard that Robert was going to ask Jenny to the dance, but I know that Cindy already heard from Johnny that Robert is asking Alexis to next month's dance if you know what I mean?

 

 

See? We can each be dismissive of the other person's preferred style of gaming, but it really doesn't get us anywhere, does it? Jumping up on your moral high horse and declaring that other people need to "learn a lesson" about being more like you doesn't really come across as particularly gentlemanly. You have the right to dislike my list or what I did with it- no one's forcing your opinions. But trying to portray yourself and your playstyle as inherently superior isn't going to make you any friends and it sure as hell isn't going to win you Best Sportsman.

[Aaron Bang]

Sorry, but you are both missing my point.  I'm not even complaining about the elder lists.  I merely pointed out that the two top lists happen to be the only codex that could bring gargantuan creatures, that I thought it was not merely a coincidence, and that I thought that it somewhat lessened the victory since neither winning list faced anything even remotely capable of dealing with them.  all personal opinion, so no arguments from my side. 

[Aaron Bang]

Jumping up on your moral high horse and declaring that other people need to "learn a lesson" about being more like you doesn't really come across as particularly gentlemanly. You have the right to dislike my list or what I did with it- no one's forcing your opinions. But trying to portray yourself and your playstyle as inherently superior isn't going to make you any friends and it sure as hell isn't going to win you Best Sportsman.

No idea what you mean by moral high horse--just my opinions here.  The lesson I hope you take away from this has nothing to do with me or my playstyle or being more like me, trust me. You'll have to look deeper to find it.  I'm being very polite and gentlemanly, and am trying to explain it to you in the most polite terms possible.  I am not  suggesting or endorsing any particular playstyle, as you seem to keep coming back to.  I'm not really worried about friends on here, either. My actions and my games with folks speak for themselves.. I've gotten more than my share of all four of the awards, and am in no way covetous of this or any other award that I was in a competition for but did not win.  AP, you ever win a best sportsman?  It's not easy, and it's pretty great when it happens, believe me. 

[pretre]

 You see, to most of the folks in this region, the highest award in a tournament is Best Sportsman, which is to say, you played 3-5 guys in a competitive environment and they all thought you were pretty cool afterwards. 

Let's talk about what you believe and what I believe. Not what 'Most people believe'. Did you survey a majority of folks in the PNW?

 

Maybe I did. Maybe to most folks in this region, the highest award in a tournament is meeting me; which is to say 5-10 people met me, had an outstanding time and walked away changed for life.

 

See, doesn't work...

[pretre]

Sorry, but you are both missing my point.  I'm not even complaining about the elder lists.  I merely pointed out that the two top lists happen to be the only codex that could bring gargantuan creatures, that I thought it was not merely a coincidence, and that I thought that it somewhat lessened the victory since neither winning list faced anything even remotely capable of dealing with them.  all personal opinion, so no arguments from my side. 

We have this problem with posters occasionally. This is not at all 'just what you said'. I encourage you to go back and actually read what you posted. That's what we're reacting to; not what you were trying to post or what your inner heart was saying, what you actually posted.

[pretre]

Moved.