Tau in general

[Lord Hanaur]

So I have had some time to get into rules arguments and such and sort everything out i am reasonably certain.  I have a few more STRATEGIC questions to ask:

 

First:  Mont'ka or Kauyon?  I personally have always used the Way of Kauyon as my guiding principle.  With the new tools at our disposal it re-opens the debate and changes nearly everything about the list you bring.  I understand that the Stelek types of the world will just spam "three fo whatever is good" and call it a list, with no regard for strategy.  But lets assume we do care about strategy.  Which one seems to fit the tools at hand better in your opinion and why?

 

Second:  If you are playing Tau Empire, which fortifications make the most sense from a "third turn moving forward" perspective.  In other words, given that you want to be thinking ahead, which helps you the most in the mid to late game?

 

My initial answer was the Gunforts.  Tidewall Gunforts are officially awesome Superheavy killers.  They will typically be doing 5 Hull points of damage per round with Markerlight support (and possibly without any help at all).  They are deployed before the enemy has to deploy of course, so they have the added benefit of affecting the enemy deployment.  They are mobile, so it is as if you had three Tough 7 3+ armor, 2 Wound Tank Hunting Hammerheads running around but far less expensively.  Built as they are in a circular pattern, they perfectly allow Tau warriors on it to spread out to mitigate blasts while enjoying its 4+ cover protection.  

 

The defense network is essentially a box with a single Gunrig or Droneport in it that moves around.  Stubborn is what it grants along with the ability to fire the Gunrig from the walls or the rig.  Stubborn later in the game can be big as that is when you're being assaulted.  Thoughts on preference?  Would you take the singular Gunrig or would you take the four Markerdrones 

 

 

 

 

 

[scottshoemaker]

I love General Tau's Chicken!

[Lord Hanaur]

Hehehe.

[Lord Hanaur]

Oh muh Gad.  My Riptides are officially in my hands again!

[AbusePuppy]

I'm not a huge fan of the new Tau fortifications. They're cool, and thematic, but they are large enough that maneuvering them around a "proper" table (that is, one that has 25% or more terrain coverage) is actually quite difficult- and the multi-fort versions are so unwieldy as to be all but impossible to move any significant distance. The Gunrig is probably the best of them, since Railguns are a good shooting weapon, but gun emplacements aren't actually all that hard to kill (having only two wounds and all), so if it's actually problematic for the enemy they can typically take it out pretty quickly.

 

The Gunfort, if it stays alive, is quite good at breaking through vehicle armor- but it still has to contend with cover saves and successfully hitting (though obviously Markerlights can mitigate these issues.) However, while it can strip HP from vehicles quite effectively, its performance against Gargantuan Creatures- which are typically much more threatening due to Tau's difficulties handling T8+ targets and their speed- is rather middling. Even with Markerlights to ensure you hit on 2s and ignore cover, you're still only looking at removing ~1.5 wounds (or even less than that if they have an invulnerable save.)

 

I think the best "forward-looking" fortifications are ones that protect your firepower units- which often means things like the Imperial Bunker or Bastion. By sticking units that would otherwise be fragile and vulnerable to morale (such as Broadsides) inside the building, you can ensure that they remain active for as much of the game as possible and avoid the issues with attrition that Tau often face. Since they often can block LOS to significant areas as well, such pieces are also great for hiding squads of Troops or Jet Packs behind in order to push forward later in the game. The fact that Tau have extensive access to Interceptor also helps mitigate one of the weaknesses of such emplacements, warding off enemy drop melta units.

 

The Stormsurge offers a good counter to enemy GCs as well as superheavy vehicles, though it is quite Markerlight-intensive to do so (potentially needing as many as nine counters on the first volley.) Other options, such as Riptides, Crisis, and Piranhas as well as the Optimized Stealth Cadre offer more viable and flexible solutions compared to investing in fortifications, I feel.

 

"Gunline" Tau lists will function well against some kinds of armies, but very poorly against others- they tend to lack good scoring elements and are often too-heavily focused on anti-infantry firepower. They also suffer badly against an enemy which shoots on a similar level and outranges/outmaneuvers them (such as Imperial Guard or Eldar), as Tau weapon platforms tend to be either quite static or quite fragile.

 

Stubborn is, more often than not, just a disadvantage for Tau. You don't WANT your units tied up in melee, because they will inevitably just die there anyways- if they get Swept immediately, it frees up the enemy for the rest of your army to shoot at them.

[Lord Hanaur]

So you would answer that Kauyon is better then i take it?

 

As for whether or not to use the Fortifications, that's one issue.  My question ws more aimed at:  given that I will use them, which one helps you the most later in the game.

 

My only thought is that the Defense Network makes for a great late game stand on an objective.  Keep in mind that any model can hop inside.  Think about that for a second!  You also get the Drones more or less for free when it comes down to it.  And if there is a Drone Network, those are pretty useful.  Food for thought.

 

The Bastion is of course always an option and a good one.  There's multiple positives for that thing.  The building damage table doesn't hurt AS badly when you have 2+ armor of course, but it's still a thing so for Broadsides, good call.  things that are softer don't benefit AS much.  So there's that.  It's not an inexpensive fortification once you add a gun to it.  My focus though for this question is the Tau fortifications.

[IW Raptors]

In my club, we are still currently running the hunter contingent as able to share the buffmanders buffs if firing at same target or for the stormsurge, if he fires one weapon at that designated unit, and he keeps the buffs for split firing into other separate units.

 

So hard to judge Tau under those circumstances as I assume yous play ITC and thus it's another ballgame. A stormsurge(s) sharing the buffmanders buffs really bumps the unit up.

 

Only played against the optimised stealth cadre as an auxiliary formation, it seemed alright. Mainly the min stealth suits ended up playing for objectives whilst the ghostkeels did the shooting.

[Lord Hanaur]

In my club, we are still currently running the hunter contingent as able to share the buffmanders buffs if firing at same target or for the stormsurge, if he fires one weapon at that designated unit, and he keeps the buffs for split firing into other separate units.

 

So hard to judge Tau under those circumstances as I assume yous play ITC and thus it's another ballgame. A stormsurge(s) sharing the buffmanders buffs really bumps the unit up.

 

Only played against the optimised stealth cadre as an auxiliary formation, it seemed alright. Mainly the min stealth suits ended up playing for objectives whilst the ghostkeels did the shooting.

Well thats a whole other rules debate I won't get into here.  

 

So what were your answers to the original questions then?

[IW Raptors]

Tbh I hadn't given them too much thought myself, moving fortifications seems novel, but with ample terrain on boards, it would be just a tad awkward.

 

I could see some use from the gunrigs if you were using multiple skyrays for example. Give your opponent a few robust AV targets.

[Lord Hanaur]

Tbh I hadn't given them too much thought myself, moving fortifications seems novel, but with ample terrain on boards, it would be just a tad awkward.

 

I could see some use from the gunrigs if you were using multiple skyrays for example. Give your opponent a few robust AV targets.

What do you mean by awkward?

 

How do you tie in the Sky Rays?

[Xavier319]

I personally think that as AP said, moving the gunrigs around on a 'real' table is difficult, due to terrain. Also, T 7 2 W 3+ is not really hard to kill at all. They wouldnt last past turn one or two at the latest.

 

I'd go for either one. both formations require tactics and foresight, and are fair and offer lots of cool options. They are not "point and click" formations. I say no gunrigs. That's my 2 cents.

[WestRider]

I was confused and had to look that up. I hadn't realized the TL Railguns were Weapons Emplacements instead of Emplaced Weapons. That makes a huge difference.

[AbusePuppy]

Yeah, the Gunforts (and other pieces of the Tidewall) are not buildings and cannot have Emplaced Weapons. That does mean that the Tidewall pieces themselves cannot be destroyed, but it means that the Railguns themselves can be.

 

If they had been released in 6E I think I would've rated them a lot more solidly, but in 7E Tau not only have better access to anti-heavy armor tech but also have all of their formations to free up HS slots in case you want some Railguns. A Hammerhead is only somewhat more expensive and is much more durable- it's worth remembering that not only can the gun emplacement itself be destroyed, the models firing it (typically Fire Warriors or their ilk, so as to avoid wasting the superior weapons of a battlesuit) can be removed as well.

[Lord Hanaur]

Anything in 40K can be killed; so that they can be doesn't really affect my opinion much. I'm also not sure I see how fragile Tough 7, and two wounds with 3+ saves makes them, and as they are three different targets, the enemy is going to need to be awfully committed to them while the rest of the army is busy closing in..

[AbusePuppy]

It's true, there is no way that you could roll two 2s in a row. They are essentially unkillable.

[Lord Hanaur]

I think Im refering to the rolls before that as well.  Sarcasm is good and fine but my point stands:  You can kill anything.  That doesnt mean you never field anything.

[AbusePuppy]

It seems pretty clear what you WANT to do, so I'm not sure why you're asking our opinion on the subject if you're simply going to immediately reject it out of hand. Go ahead and play with the Gunrigs and have a blast, no one is going to stop you.

[fluger]

no one is going to stop you.

I will!

 

[AbusePuppy]

No you won't, I slashed your tires. You're trapped, TRAPPED IN MY MAZE OF SHADOWS YOU FOOL.

[fluger]

No you won't, I slashed your tires. You're trapped, TRAPPED IN MY MAZE OF SHADOWS YOU FOOL.

[Lord Hanaur]

It seems pretty clear what you WANT to do, so I'm not sure why you're asking our opinion on the subject if you're simply going to immediately reject it out of hand. Go ahead and play with the Gunrigs and have a blast, no one is going to stop you.

Is it clear?  I don't think it is.  I haven't fielded them yet and so there is no bias.  But stating that it can be killed (with enough effort) is sort of stating the obvious.

 

Given the relative strengths of the TWO choices I asked about, which one seems like it would be more useful later in the game.  That was the question I actually asked.  You're answering a question I didn't ask.  You're not wrong.  You're just not answering my question.

 

It bears stating that given the range enemies have to fire at the gun rigs from, it's not at all certain they will want to or be able to bring enough to bear and it might not even be in their best interests given the potential for other priority targets.  So their mortality is always going to be there but...

 

Later in the game, Defense Networks may be important for holding an objective.  The Defense Netwrok seems like it could be good for that. I like the Defense Network because it plays to the endgame.  The Gunrigs are really decent for when big flyers and the like start alighting to the ground to take objectives or just because they can't get angles if they continue moving as a flyer.  They also make null deploying kind of nice because now you can commit a different kind of unit down for it and that really helps if you play a Kauyon style.  Why?  Because in Kauyon you are likely to be able to use the Gunrigs as a way tougher and harder hitting alpha shot, one that enemies will like much less than the STR 8 AP 1 Broadisde I might normally use.  That it has submunitions makes it that much more versatile compared to the Broadside I would have used.

 

A stubborn Riptide in a Defense Network would be pretty slick for games end.  Eventually the enemy might get back there and making certain he helps the line is cool.  I can think of other units too that it would help.  If there's an avenue to an objective, you can use it to guide a scoring unit like Kroot into the objective.  Giving Kroot a mobile cover save?  

 

Anywho, the possibilities are pretty good.

[Brother Glacius]

well I just picked up the gun wall from GG thanks to their year end sale. They were out of the stealth suits unfortunately, and GW's $150 price tag on the new big guy killed that even with 25% off. I didn't get the gun rig or the drone controller...for me, just the shield should help out my firewarriors.

 

that had some imperial terrain thingy with two quad las-cannons on it..that looked tempting...

[Lord Hanaur]

The Aegis Defense line is good.  it's been an old standby in many lists.  It got nerfed pretty hard in my opinion when the 7th Ed book came out (because of where you can deploy it).  When there are flyers In the sky, nothing better than a cheap anti-air solution.  The fact thast the Tidewall can move up is pretty attractive because of that limitation ofthe Aegis line.  My favorite thing about the Aegis is the Comms Relay though.  Really plays to my strengths a lot of the time.

 

I have the Tidewall Rampart and I am planning to paint that up and use it.  I's expensive, but it's quite attractive.  probably great for displaying an army with too. 

 

I have enough goodies to form most of the possibilities with Tau fortifications.  Figuring out which ones are best is the thing.

 

As for Stealthsuits, I have like 26 or some such.  I'm sure I could part with six if there were trade bait available.  PM me on that if interested.  Trading is always a good way to go.

[Brother Glacius]

Not the aegis, but the tau shield wall thingy..the one with the blue panels.

[Lord Hanaur]

Oh yeah.  the one that bounces shots back at the enemy?  Hehehehe.  Good times.