Lord Hanaur Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1vtp6zikYXgaMJr3M7-ESFs5yH_zMDPJQ19BhsiYImS4/viewform My votes were as follows: How many detachments do you wish to play with in the 2016 season? Answer: 3 How would you like the ITC to track which faction your army ranks as? Answer: I would like to see the ITC track faction by primary detachment as we have done. For larger ITC tournaments, what points limit would you prefer? Answer: Keep it at 1,850pts. If the points limit for larger ITC tournaments were voted to be reduced from 1,850, which of the two points levels below do you prefer? Answer: 1500 Should we treat Data Slates containing multiple fortifications (i.e. Tau Tidewall Gunfort) the same as Fortification Networks (which are disallowed in ITC)? Answer: I would like to include them in the ITC format for the 2016 season. Per RAW, if a Gargantuan Creature with any part of its base is in a piece of terrain which grants a cover save, the Gargantuan Creature gains the save even if no part of it is actually obscured. Do you wish to play this rule this way? Answer: RAW is mostly better even when its imperfect unless its creating some massive advantage. I dont think a 5+ cover save for a gargantuan creature is a big enough deal to worry about and changing every rule isnt what the ITC should be about. Yes, I want to play this rule per RAW, meaning a Gargantuan Creature gains a cover save from these types of terrain pieces even if no part of the model is obscured. How many times can a unit of Tau Ghostkeels containing more than one Ghostkeel activate their Holophoton Countermeasures? Conflict: The Holophoton Countermeasures rule indicates that the rule is activated on both a per model and per unit basis, creating ambiguity. Answer: Its not ambiguous, stop biasing the vote. They can activate their Holophoton Countermeasures once per Ghostkeel in the unit, which would mean up to three times for a unit of three Ghostkeels. When the Piranhas from the Firestream Wing formation reenter play from ongoing reserves, do models from the formation that were destroyed return to play per the Rearm and Refuel special rule? Conflict: The Rearm and Refuel formation rule indicates that units in this formation come back from ongoing reserves at full strength, but does not specify what full strength means in regards to destroyed Piranhas. Answer: I think its clear that destroyed models are not what is meant. No, Piranhas that were destroyed do not return to the game. If a Piranha in a unit in the Firestream Wing formation is immobilized and left behind per the Abandoned rule, does it count as destroyed for the purposes of the Rearm and Refuel special rule? Answer: irrelevant since it is now its own unit and the others are now just a smaller unit and now defined as their new number entirely. Assuming what they REALLY mean with this question is that if people DON'T vote the way I did and it is considered "recoverable" should detached ones be? I still dont see why you would. They are now SEPARATE units. Separate units means separate. No longer part of it in any way. So "destroyed" seems an un-needed distinction the ITC is trying to make. Sigh. The Eldar Corsairs Reckless Abandon special rule allows them to move after making a shooting attack. Does this apply to overwatch? Answer: No vote. i dont know enough to vote on it. Forge World. what can you do? Never vote out of ignorace though so i didnt vote on this one. Can a Chaos Knight take Legacies of Ruin? Answer: No vote. i dont know enough to vote on it. Forge World. what can you do? Never vote out of ignorace though so i didnt vote on this one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PourSpelur Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Its not ambiguous, stop biasing the vote. They can activate their Holophoton Countermeasures once per Ghostkeel in the unit, which would mean up to three times for a unit of three Ghostkeels. I'm gonna call you out on this. Not out of spite but out of love. When you rail against a perceived wrongdoing but immediately turn around and do the exact same thing I lose all respect for your grievance. Period. It just ends up being a contest of who yells louder. In my book there is ambiguity to the rule. In your book there isn't. The people that disagree with you don't think there is either.Personally, I'm cool with either interpretation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Heh. The 1500 Points one is the only one I voted the same way you did on. The GC Cover issue is a blatant change, but one I think is warranted, while many of the rest seem to me to just as clearly read the opposite from what you think is the clear reading. Seriously, we're both intelligent guys. If we can read these and come immediately and strongly to opposite conclusions, that's pretty strong evidence that they are not, in fact, clear. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted February 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 I'm gonna call you out on this. Not out of spite but out of love. When you rail against a perceived wrongdoing but immediately turn around and do the exact same thing I lose all respect for your grievance. Period. It just ends up being a contest of who yells louder. In my book there is ambiguity to the rule. In your book there isn't. The people that disagree with you don't think there is either. Personally, I'm cool with either interpretation. Then vote it your way. Just make sure to vote. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted February 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Heh. The 1500 Points one is the only one I voted the same way you did on. The GC Cover issue is a blatant change, but one I think is warranted, while many of the rest seem to me to just as clearly read the opposite from what you think is the clear reading. Seriously, we're both intelligent guys. If we can read these and come immediately and strongly to opposite conclusions, that's pretty strong evidence that they are not, in fact, clear. Blatant changes need to go away unless theres some huge need. There wasn't here. Even when I don't necessarily like it, I'm not rolling with the change just 'cause crew. I am sure there are lots of things we wish weren't true but this one is true and is legal and doesnt affect the game much at all. Its philosophy, not intelligence, that conflicts here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talonwinter Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 At lest they didn't include MC or FMC. I am hoping for 1650 if it changes. I don't like 1500. really. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted February 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Surprised to see that issue come up. Assuming any change which i don't expect, 1500 is objectively easier to drop down and pick up. Still feels like a game o 40K either way. Assuming any change at all, that is, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Blatant changes need to go away unless theres some huge need. There wasn't here. Even when I don't necessarily like it, I'm not rolling with the change just 'cause crew. I am sure there are lots of things we wish weren't true but this one is true and is legal and doesnt affect the game much at all. Its philosophy, not intelligence, that conflicts here. I was actually talking more about the Ghostkeel thing here. It seems blatantly obvious to me on reading it that it's per Unit, regardless of how many times I've seen people lay out the opposite case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 I voted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted February 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 'Merica. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PumpkinHead Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 I also voted. How many detachments do you wish to play with in the 2016 season? Answer: 3 How would you like the ITC to track which faction your army ranks as? Answer: I want it by points amount, For larger ITC tournaments, what points limit would you prefer? Answer: Lower it. If the points limit for larger ITC tournaments were voted to be reduced from 1,850, which of the two points levels below do you prefer? Answer: 1650 Should we treat Data Slates containing multiple fortifications (i.e. Tau Tidewall Gunfort) the same as Fortification Networks (which are disallowed in ITC)? Answer: I would like to include them in the ITC format for the 2016 season. Per RAW, if a Gargantuan Creature with any part of its base is in a piece of terrain which grants a cover save, the Gargantuan Creature gains the save even if no part of it is actually obscured. Do you wish to play this rule this way? Answer: Rule Change. It's a dumb rule. How many times can a unit of Tau Ghostkeels containing more than one Ghostkeel activate their Holophoton Countermeasures? Conflict: The Holophoton Countermeasures rule indicates that the rule is activated on both a per model and per unit basis, creating ambiguity. Answer: I agree that it isn't ambiguous, which is why I voted to have it be on a unit basis. When the Piranhas from the Firestream Wing formation reenter play from ongoing reserves, do models from the formation that were destroyed return to play per the Rearm and Refuel special rule? Conflict: The Rearm and Refuel formation rule indicates that units in this formation come back from ongoing reserves at full strength, but does not specify what full strength means in regards to destroyed Piranhas. Answer: I think its clear that destroyed models are not what is meant. No, Piranhas that were destroyed do not return to the game. If a Piranha in a unit in the Firestream Wing formation is immobilized and left behind per the Abandoned rule, does it count as destroyed for the purposes of the Rearm and Refuel special rule? Answer: LH, why this is important is because if it is now not part of the unit, and you CAN bring units back to full strength, then you could have an immobilized unit left behind and then get a new set of 5. The Eldar Corsairs Reckless Abandon special rule allows them to move after making a shooting attack. Does this apply to overwatch? Answer: I think it is clearly designed to be battle focus lite, not a free way to get out of combats. Can a Chaos Knight take Legacies of Ruin? Answer: After seeing what Gareth did with his Knight at TSHFT, have to agree to disallow it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted February 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 I was actually talking more about the Ghostkeel thing here. It seems blatantly obvious to me on reading it that it's per Unit, regardless of how many times I've seen people lay out the opposite case. It actually says a model equipped with it flash bangs the enemy. That's what it actually says, Couldn't be clearer what model means. You think you can ignore an explicit rule with a very specific and clear meaning because there "could be" a way to interpret it otherwise if you wanted to? Well lets take a look at it.. It actually tells you that the effect is not on the Ghostkeels, it is on the enemy unit. That's important. It says to "declare that the unit will use the Holophoton Countermeasures after the enemy unit has targeted said unit" basically. They are saying that the enemies TARGET is the unit and so said unit is indeed then free to employ a flash bang (and per the super specific text, a single model can do so), One has the desired effect.and that's obviously true since the effect is on the ENEMY unit and ONE ghostkeel can do it no matter how large the enemy unit being affected! There's no reason to fire more. None. This does not say, anywhere, that "The models" (plural) in the unit throw them". This does not say anywhere that the "Unit throws all its Countermeasures at once". Just as it does not say "the Strenguard must fire all weapons and cannot hold any back in order to stop them from missing the charge" just because it is the "unit firing the ammo". It's easter egg hunting. It has specified that one model can flash bang one enemy unit that targeted its unit. Its telling you when the unit can employ one. These votes are going to allow you to nerf your opponents in all kinds of ways. Whether you do or not is up to you. I play too many armies (regularly) to play this game. go down this path. I'm on practically every side of every issue because of that volume, I'll face Tau with my Militarum Tempestus as surely as I will face Gargantuans with my Night Lords and as surely as I will face Eldar Corsairs with my Grey Knights. I'm not going to support easter egg hunting. That's just my philosophy. This is easter egg hunting. I'm not going to tell people how clever they are for finding some plasuible reason it could be other than the very specific text telling you that one countermeasure flash bangs one enemy unit. That's clear as day. Occams Razor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 If it was clear as day, we wouldn't be having this discussion. :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted February 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 If it was clear as day, we wouldn't be having this discussion. :) Oh we would. Because We're gamers. and half of us pretend things are cloudy to force the question and another segment acts as if black is white when its not in their self interest. so yah. we would. Even if the ITC didn't bring it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Oh we would. Because We're gamers. and half of us pretend things are cloudy to force the question and another segment acts as if black is white when its not in their self interest. so yah. we would. Even if the ITC didn't bring it up. No one is pretending. People discuss things that are unclear. You have a hard time conceiving of someone rationally having a different interpretation that you do, but people do. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Oh we would. Because We're gamers. and half of us pretend things are cloudy to force the question and another segment acts as if black is white when its not in their self interest. so yah. we would. Even if the ITC didn't bring it up. Except for Tau players like Mikhail Lenin who disagree with you and USE Ghostkeels. Jesus, LH, seriously, this isn't some conspiracy, we think the rule is different, get over yourself. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterman Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 How many detachments do you wish to play with in the 2016 season? Answer: Unlimited (Not a strong opinion on this one but with decurions a thing for almost everyone and a single duplicate detachment restriction it seems silly to set detachment limits at this point - other than to limit culexus or servo skulls which wouldn't be a bad thing imo.) How would you like the ITC to track which faction your army ranks as? Answer: Most points. (not a strong opinion on this one either. Almost voted the other way cause as a TO I think figuring this out and making sure its correct will be a pain, but it does seem wacky sometimes basing on primary) For larger ITC tournaments, what points limit would you prefer? Answer: Smaller (purely based on being a player who is lazy. Easier to get an army for smaller games. Not a strong opinion on this one, just don't want the games bigger than 1850) If the points limit for larger ITC tournaments were voted to be reduced from 1,850, which of the two points levels below do you prefer? Answer: 1650 (compromise is good. 1500 is fine also) Should we treat Data Slates containing multiple fortifications (i.e. Tau Tidewall Gunfort) the same as Fortification Networks (which are disallowed in ITC)? Answer: Do not allow (TO POV. I have tables that would be hell to play with these things. These things should stay in friendly games and mega battles. Same issue I have with the networks.) Per RAW, if a Gargantuan Creature with any part of its base is in a piece of terrain which grants a cover save, the Gargantuan Creature gains the save even if no part of it is actually obscured. Do you wish to play this rule this way? Answer: Keep it as is. (Voted more from a philosophical standpoint I am not big on changing core rules unless absolutely necessary. Ban lists and army list limits sure that is actually spelled out as fine in core rules. But tinkering with rules like this is not my cup of tea. Not a big deal though if it goes through) How many times can a unit of Tau Ghostkeels containing more than one Ghostkeel activate their Holophoton Countermeasures? Conflict: The Holophoton Countermeasures rule indicates that the rule is activated on both a per model and per unit basis, creating ambiguity. Answer: Per model. (If only to shut up all the Tau whiners. Seriously). When the Piranhas from the Firestream Wing formation reenter play from ongoing reserves, do models from the formation that were destroyed return to play per the Rearm and Refuel special rule? Conflict: The Rearm and Refuel formation rule indicates that units in this formation come back from ongoing reserves at full strength, but does not specify what full strength means in regards to destroyed Piranhas. Answer: Destroyed models come back. (Pretty sure that is what the old apoc version did as well but could be wrong. Still mainly to shut up all the Tau whiners.) If a Piranha in a unit in the Firestream Wing formation is immobilized and left behind per the Abandoned rule, does it count as destroyed for the purposes of the Rearm and Refuel special rule? Answer: Doesn't count as destroyed. (This one needed clarification, and this is how I'd rule it if forced to) The Eldar Corsairs Reckless Abandon special rule allows them to move after making a shooting attack. Does this apply to overwatch? Answer: Yes (Trying to keep consistency with other ITC rulings like MC/Tau firing multiple weapons in overwatch, etc. Also RaW in my opinion) Can a Chaos Knight take Legacies of Ruin? Answer: Yes (Not a strong opinion here but until FW get their act together we may as well play RAW). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talonwinter Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Well I can see where some people say so what. At some of the bigger tournaments and in the ITC league you can get best of certain army. I have seen a necron army take the Tau army reward because he had a fire warrior and a hq the rest of his list was necrons. The guys that played pure Tau didn't get a thing. Two necron army walked away with prizes. Really how can you call that a Tau army, or fair play. I know it has left a sour taste in a few players mouths. That is why I think it was a question that should be clear. Otherwise I think it is considerate of them to even ask the payer their thoughts on this. Most people would have a hard time proving that the ITC has been bad for the gaming community. Some people have issues or feeling about them. I understand. But since GW is not supporting their game properly someone as taken a ballsy risk to do so. So far they are reaping the rewards for a big risk they have taken. I am interested in see where this goes. We all have seen decline and growth in the last few years. TO have had a labor of love. LH elven tournament is seeing good growth, with this year likely to be a two day event. ( how is that new mission coming) Hears to another good year of gaming. The real question is should I stick with my Tyranids or go with my new army. lol Winning Best Tyranids is very tempting for me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted February 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 Best Tyranids sounds awesome to me. There is something magical about being the underdog with no one rooting for you. Makes the wins all the sweeter. Go Tyranids. Talonwinter for Tyranid President, 2016. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talonwinter Posted February 24, 2016 Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 Yes, I just eat my opponents. Shouldn't be an issue. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted February 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 It rarely is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 Yes, I just eat my opponents. Shouldn't be an issue. That's hot. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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