Civil War review - spoilers

[Brother Glacius]

Let me preface this with the fact that I'm a huge CA movie fan. I think the series is the best that has been made so far. So it was with great anticipation that I went to go see Civil War.

 

The truth is, I haven't settled on how I exactly feel about the movie. I think for what they were trying to do, they did a really good job of it. However, I can't say I agree with everything they did. I think also part of the issue I'm having is that I was really hyped for this movie. When Winter came out, I was worried. Sequels are often not as good as the original. But Winter blew me away from the very opening scene to the last. It was about as perfect as a movie I could imagine. So that really set the bar high for Civil War. I don't think they reached it, but it was still a good movie. That said, I've got some issues :)

 

Spider-Man: good casting, good implementation. I just didn't see the point of having him in a CA movie. Toss him in with the Avengers? sure...but Civil War? Seemed like a gimmick to me.

 

The whole "Avengers are bad because people die when they save others" premise was weak. How many millions would have died if the carriers hadn't been stopped? Or the one bit that would have easily fit would have been the Hulk rampaging through the city...but they didn't use it. Or hey, the planet is invaded and you couldn't save everyone...bad Avengers...bad! Even the event where SW accidentally releases the blast near the building...how many people on the ground would have been killed if she hadn't redirected it?  The premise there seemed really weak. However, the current environment of fear-mongering in the world today does give it legitimacy. Sadly.

 

Hmmmm apparently those were the two detractors of the film for me. But honestly, that is really small when I think about it. Considering everything in that movie....the chases, the fights, the sheer amount of characters....if those are my negatives....then this movie rocked it. Falcon was awesome. The Black Panther was awesome. They even hinted at the relationship between Vision and SW. I do kind of wish they had mentioned the Inhumans. That is a parallel story line from AoS. Could easily have given that a mention somewhere. And they did a great job of adding some lol moments. Like the scene just after the kiss. Had me rolling.

 

I'm going to go see this again. Now that the pressure is off, I'm sure I'll enjoy it even more (same thing happened with SW: Force Awakens). I have to say, after all of this...they have some work to get the Avengers back together for the next two films.

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

You do know spider man plays a huge part in the civil print edition?

 

From your review it seems you don't know the original print. I would suggest checking it out, it's a good read. Might have give better context.

 

I haven't seen the movie yet, but I'm not a super fan so wil wait for dvd. From reviews it seems a lot of folks aren't familiar with the core plot.

 

Original start was a hulk rampage caused some extreme decisions that continued down a path of division.

[InfestedKerrigan]

Yeah, I enjoyed Illuminati/Civil War.  I didn't enjoy Capt America: Civil War.

 

Could have been better.  Missed out on lots of chances.  And as I said in "Rate Last Movie" thread, Disney's treatment of Mutants pisses me the *guitar rift* off.

[Brother Glacius]

re: Spider-Man: that is sort of my point though. He may have been a big deal in the print series, but this isn't the print series. This is the third movie in the Captain America series. In that context, SM was just tossed in. And I stopped reading comics right around '90ish. Was in college and just couldn't keep up with the subscriptions any more. All of my comic knowledge comes from the 70's and 80's.

 

In the movie, SM brought nothing to the civil war conflict. He had no opinion. He had nothing to stand for. He was there because Stark brought him and basically told him what to do the whole time. That isn't interesting. Spider-Man is a great character. One of my favorites of all time. In this movie, he was a gimmick. Didn't need him.

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

Lol you just described Spider-Man in the print. That is the role he started as in the civil war as Tony's lap dog. Ge plays a much bigger role in the middle and later part of the struggle.

[WestRider]

Yeah, that's what I was talking about in the main Movie Thread when I said Spidey was badly under-used. He could have had this great arc where he gets dragged in by Tony, and then comes to realize that his ideals actually line up much better with Cap. It probably wouldn't have fit terribly well in the time they had available, tho, and would have been better for the movie as a whole if he'd just been left out.

 

He is a great incarnation of Spidey, tho, and I'm actually really looking forward to his movie, which I haven't been able to say about Spiderman in a while now. But he didn't fit well in CW.

 

I kept expecting someone to bring up the counterpoint on the civilian casualties thing, too. "You would have preferred that we let Loki or HYDRA kill Millions of people and conquer the world? You would have preferred that we let Crossbones get away with a virus that could devastate populations worldwide? Or even that we let that bomb go off at street level, in the middle of the packed market?"

 

Sokovia is a little different, particularly as it relates to Tony. I don't know how much of the backstory there was ever made public, but Tony created Ultron (with the best of intentions, but still), and those deaths have to weigh particularly heavily on him, even if no one outside the Avengers knows it was his fault. There's a reason the villain here was Sokovian instead of someone from New York or DC or Lagos. It added that extra push at the end when he completely loses it and goes after Bucky. Nothing to do with Bucky, but it's one more thing chipping away at his ability to deal, that the guy who put them all in this situation lost his family because of Tony's creation.

 

But yeah, that needed to be addressed more.

 

There were also a couple of little things, like I feel like they should have brought in Dr. Cho from Avengers 2 for Rhodes at the end. This sort of thing is exactly her specialty.

 

But overall, I loved it. Watching Steve and Bucky work together so seamlessly, right from the start, picking up just where they left off. Bucky and Sam's banter. (I really want a road trip movie with Steve, Sam, and Bucky in the VW bug.) The way they managed to show that Sharon Carter is a really good fighter, but unaugmented, so she's not on the same level as the Supes. T'Challa has me so excited for the Black Panther movie. The idea that the governments of the world have given thought to the necessity of restraining super-powered individuals without the use of powers of their own. So much more, those are just the bits that are sticking in my mind right now. Almost certainly going to go see it in the theatre again.

[Raindog]

Spider-Man: I applaud the choice of the actor and the characterization they gave him. Tony Stark had no business bring him to a big fight like that. He is still a kid. He is untrained and unprepared for heavy hitting opponents. He easily could have been killed. Stark was only using him which is very Stark.

 

What did he bring to the movie?

 

Humor. He was funny and eager and sincere. He is like a super powered fan boy. He was there to balance out the tension and to keep the film from going too dark.

[Raindog]

As to the Avengers are bad because people die when they attempt to save thousands of others......... Welcome to my world. I hate the attitude, but as my daughter pointed out this is how many people see the world. Law Enforcement is bad because they occasionally have to shoot somebody and it is better not to engage if force has to be used. The theme was a joke in the movie, The Incredibles, but is reality now in the no one show every have to die or be hurt world of the 21st Century.

[Raindog]

Best part of the movie, Stark gets his butt kicked. His rage and anger fuel him. He cannot adapt like Captain, Black Widow, Black Panther, the Falcon, etc have with grief and conflict in there lives. Playboy Stark is a better person than Avenger Stark because he does not try to meddle in other people's lives.

[WestRider]

Best part of the movie, Stark gets his butt kicked. His rage and anger fuel him. He cannot adapt like Captain, Black Widow, Black Panther, the Falcon, etc have with grief and conflict in there lives. Playboy Stark is a better person than Avenger Stark because he does not try to meddle in other people's lives.

I'm not sure that it's about being a better person. Look at all those other people you named: They've all been trained as soldiers or secret agents. They've got some sort of mental framework to deal with situations where people are getting killed, whether intentionally or accidentally.

 

Stark (And this also applies to Wanda and Bruce, but they deal with it differently) is a civilian. He has no framework, no way to deal with this. He's doing his best to come up with some sort of coping mechanism, but he's floundering, and often overreacting and making things worse.

 

My favorite Iron Man scene is the bit in IM3 when he's rescuing all the people falling out of Air Force 1. Because that's a situation that Tony can wrap his mind around and understand. That's what he wanted to be doing when he started putting on the suit. He's good when it comes to saving people. But when it comes to fighting, he doesn't really know what he's doing, he doesn't know how far to take it, and he doesn't know how to deal with the consequences, because nothing in his life has ever prepared him for any of that.

 

Frankly, I think Tony needs to spend a lot of time with Sam*, working on learning some better coping mechanisms and dealing with what he's been through and done. But between his difficulty admitting that he needs help and asking for it, and the fact that Sam was not only on the other side, but was involved in Rhodey's injury (only by dodging a shot meant for him, but like I've said, Tony isn't great at sorting out that sort of thing), that seems really unlikely at this point.

 

*There are probably other counselors/therapists/etc. who could also help, but Sam is uniquely positioned due to his additional experience with the Avengers.

[Brother Glacius]

I thought the whole "rampaging Tony" was a bit of a stretch. Basically Stark had to thrown in his face that Bucky didn't plant the bomb in the first place and that they were being manipulated. So then at the end, he just falls into the exact same pattern. Granted, it was a lot more personal what he saw, but still, the guy said point blank to his face that he was trying to destroy them from the inside. The bad guy is like "ha ha, you fell into my trap!" and tony is like "uh okay!"

 

Oh, and what would have happened at Vision actually connected with the Falcon instead of Warmachine?? If a glancing shot completely disabled the WM suit...poor falcon would have gotten fried.

 

Also, I hope Cap sank that stupid prison. Lets incarcerate these people in a US controlled facility somewhere in international waters (most likely) where they committed no crime on US soil (other than hawkeye breaking out Wanda). :) I need to see this movie again.

[Brother Glacius]

I love that Sharon Carter quoted the comics. This was a great Cap movie, and a better Avenger's movie than Age of Ultron. I liked everything about it, especially that Zemo didn't get killed off at the end (like Marvel is apt to do with their villains.) Top 5 Marvel movie for me.

Captain America for President!!!

[Raindog]

 

 

Frankly, I think Tony needs to spend a lot of time with Sam*, working on learning some better coping mechanisms and dealing with what he's been through and done. But between his difficulty admitting that he needs help and asking for it, and the fact that Sam was not only on the other side, but was involved in Rhodey's injury (only by dodging a shot meant for him, but like I've said, Tony isn't great at sorting out that sort of thing), that seems really unlikely at this point.

 

 

 

 

 

And West Rider for the Win!

[WestRider]

I thought the whole "rampaging Tony" was a bit of a stretch. Basically Stark had to thrown in his face that Bucky didn't plant the bomb in the first place and that they were being manipulated. So then at the end, he just falls into the exact same pattern. Granted, it was a lot more personal what he saw, but still, the guy said point blank to his face that he was trying to destroy them from the inside. The bad guy is like "ha ha, you fell into my trap!" and tony is like "uh okay!"

 

Oh, and what would have happened at Vision actually connected with the Falcon instead of Warmachine?? If a glancing shot completely disabled the WM suit...poor falcon would have gotten fried.

First point: Tony is in REALLY bad shape mentally/emotionally by that point. Think about not just what he's been through in this flick, but all the rest of them, going back to that bomb going off under his hummvee. He's never really dealt with any of that. Now, 90% of that is unrelated to the current situation, but it doesn't really matter at that point. He's just overloaded and overwhelmed and frankly probably more angry at himself than anyone else, but Bucky is someone who's there and he can hit. It was just all too much, and he basically completely snapped there, which he's been building up to for like 8 years and something like a dozen cases of either him or someone he really cares about nearly dying.

 

Second point: I figure Vision was aiming for a wing. He's certainly seen the reports from DC during CAtWS, he knows that Sam can recover and land safely after losing a wing.

[generalripphook]

Will there be a second civil war? I feel like it can't really give the comics justice with one movie.

[WestRider]

Will there be a second civil war? I feel like it can't really give the comics justice with one movie.

Nah. They really didn't hit the depth of the comics. Really, this was less about anything systemic and more just about Tony, Steve, and Bucky. Next time we see this lot is in Avengers: Infinity War, which is a two-parter.

[Duckman]

The whole "Avengers are bad because people die when they save others" premise was weak. How many millions would have died if the carriers hadn't been stopped? Or the one bit that would have easily fit would have been the Hulk rampaging through the city...but they didn't use it. Or hey, the planet is invaded and you couldn't save everyone...bad Avengers...bad! Even the event where SW accidentally releases the blast near the building...how many people on the ground would have been killed if she hadn't redirected it?  The premise there seemed really weak. However, the current environment of fear-mongering in the world today does give it legitimacy. Sadly.

 

 

You hit it at the end.  The police and military have to deal with this.  Science has to deal with this.  It is a fact of life and it comes from all side and all politics.  Regardless of what you believe I'll bet there is some issue where you are on the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" side and others where you are not.

 

GMO crops

Stem Cell research

policing

military policing (including search and seizure in international waters)

traffic enforcement (speeding and DUI come to mind)

 

And that's just the stuff I can think of at 8 in the morning before caffeine.  I'm sure we could grow the list by leaps and bounds (probably best relegated to the Realms of Chaos).

[InfestedKerrigan]

Nah. They really didn't hit the depth of the comics. Really, this was less about anything systemic and more just about Tony, Steve, and Bucky. Next time we see this lot is in Avengers: Infinity War, which is a two-parter.

 

I thought I read the brothers decided they aren't calling it Infinity War any longer and are planning on changing it up a bit.

 

Speaking of changing it up, R rated Wolvie movie, anyone?

[WestRider]

I thought I read the brothers decided they aren't calling it Infinity War any longer and are planning on changing it up a bit.

 

Speaking of changing it up, R rated Wolvie movie, anyone?

Could be. It's still listed as Infinity War in the MCU Wikipedia page. I didn't bother digging any further. Regardless of what it's called, that's the next time we're seeing the Avengers as a group, and there won't be a Civil War 2.

[InfestedKerrigan]

I was bored clicking on graves when I came across that info.  Don't recall if it was off FB "now trending" or.....OH!  It was on Stan Lee's feed, that's right.  Something about how the entirety of Infinity War doesn't fit in the two movies as the Infinity War has been raging behind the scenes already, with Thanos already having obtained the Infinity Gauntlet and possibly a few stones.

 

GotG2 may shed more light on it, or perhaps IM4 (was reading about negotiations to make this happen before next Avengers).  I don't see GotG2 doing much Thanos stuff, though.  The only thing I've read about it has the guy from Stargate in it, who I'm assuming is playing Starlord's father.  At that point, I imagine that we're going to see his Dad's empire and that story arch.  

[WestRider]

Guardians 2 will probably include at least one more Infinity Gem, even if it doesn't directly include Thanos, so I can see it contributing to the setup there.

 

Also, I'm happy to see Kurt Russel in GotG2 regardless, but you mentioning Stargate makes me really want them to bring back his haircut from that ;)

[dashneeb]

So I saw Civil War and while I've read the print edition, I didn't expect it to follow the print edition at all, I figured that they'd simply make this an internal rift between Cap and Tony, just like they've shown with the trailers.  Obviously because the New Warriors weren't anywhere to be seen :).  I think if you're going to make any big issue with any of the movie was that the villain that they were trailing in the beginning was rather wasted.

 

I think it's probably the most solid Marvel movie since wave 1.  Winter Soldier was an incredible movie until the third act when it got super lazy writing all of a sudden.

 

I'd agree that putting Spiderman in the movie is... well, silly.  And it stinks of Marvel hubris but it's not an issue in my opinion because he's there for fan service.  While he played a big part in the print civil war, so did Danny Rand (as Daredevil) and you didn't see them doing anything with Daredevil.  

 

But, I felt it was an enjoyable movie, and much better than most recent Marvel offerings, and at least someone finally said "You know, we've never really addressed the end of Iron Man 3, might as well pay it some slight lip service. 

[InfestedKerrigan]

[WestRider]

Ugh. I'm already so done with that. One of the laziest twists in the book. "YOU THOT WAS GUD GUY. NO! IS BAD GUY!" Old, tired, and boring.

[InfestedKerrigan]

In story, it adds to his actions during Civil War, being anti Meta-registration.   Keep them off the books for ease of access and weaponization. 

 

Plus, it keeps him with the times.  It's not cool to be pro-America in the same way it was when he debuted.  

 

It's all financial, we know this.  We know Star Wars is a Redemption story, so how likely are we to see Kylo be redeemed before it's over?  Does that make you unhappy?  

 

Then there is that for Captain Murika.  How long until Rogers is redeemed, as it were?  They won't keep him as a Super Villain.

 

Anyway, I don't really read comics, let alone Cap.  I just liked the picture.