Photo Radar

[Brother Glacius]

So I got a ticket in the mail yesterday. I was a bit surprised, and then I remembered a trip to costco that I took a few weeks ago with my daughter. I remember an odd flash while on Sandy. Having seen photo radar go off before, I remember looking down at my dash to see my speed (37 as I recall), and then looking around for what could have caused the flash. I dismissed it at the time because I was one of several cars on Sandy at the time and was driving right along with the rest of traffic. I don't remember seeing other flashes.

 

The ticket claims I was going 41 in a 30 zone. I clearly remember 37. I also clearly remember several cars around me all going the same speed. The photo set they have also shows that there were a few cars in front of me.

 

The ticket is $160 which is just outrageous. I know if I go in person, most likely the ticket will be reduced. But part of me wants to fight it all. But I don't know if there is any chance of success. Any advice? This is just really bothering me. I know I wasn't going that fast.

[barca]

I do not have direct experience with Photo Radar tickets.

I do have one experience with a speeding ticket issued by PDX police, a motorcycle office with a radar gun.

I responded by mail, plead Not Guilty, and appeared in court. I was also watching my speedometer, and remembered a lower speed than what the officer claimed. I still paid a fine, but it was reduce by half.

 

The most difficult and time consuming part was everything I needed to do before the court date.

Ensure that you are clear on all the steps and actually dry run through where you need to go, what exactly you need to do, and how much time everything takes, BEFORE your court date.  That includes how you respond, and anything to do with the court clerk and/or the place and procedure for paying the fine. Some of the details are very bureaucratic (form of ID, method of payment, etc.)

 

The whole experience took A LOT more time and was way more complicated than an average person would expect.

In addition, there is almost no parking at the time and place if your court location is downtown PDX.

 

Some of the tips below are simple and specific on what the police are required to do to operate a Photo Radar correctly.

That may be your best defense (actually, non-confrontational offense).

 

This may be the most helpful and most relevant:

https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/30591
 2015 Report: https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/article/521181
especially read pp. 14-15, 17-19, 21-23.

I would recommend printing this out and taking it to court.

 

Now here are some tips from other people that I have not tried, and also some references to ORS (Oregon Revised Statutes):

 

Citations based on photo radar
http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/810.439

Photo radar
http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/810.438

 

http://www.blakedore.com/photo-radar-at-the-sellwood-bridge/

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Portland/comments/3yuwqp/psa_now_is_a_good_time_to_fight_portland_photo/
 

https://blog.joemanna.com/how-to-get-out-of-a-photo-radar-ticket/

http://photoradarscam.com/getout.php

http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169701

http://www.yelp.com/topic/portland-contesting-a-speeding-ticket

https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/hi--can-you-beat-photo-radar-speeding-ticket--van--1780185.html

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.culture.oregon/FeEVr0iqNK4%5B1-25%5D
 

[barca]

Oh, and BTW, the threshold for many municipalities using Photo Radar is 11 MPH over the speed limit, which is why the ticket shows 41 instead of 37.

There is probably a technical reason for this. but in my short research I did not find a technical analysis nor an official report.

If the threshold is supposed to be set at 11 or more mph, there may be a timing issue between detection and the actual photo image.

 

http://damorelaw.com/speed-limit/oregon-law-speed-cameras-portlands-high-crash-corridors.htm

"Last year, they sent out 33,486 speeding tickets—all of them to drivers travelling at least 11 mph over the speed limit."

[barca]

More research:

 

If you want the most relevant info on FPR (Fixed Photo Radar), then read this:
OREGON TRAFFIC CONTROL DEVICES COMMITTEE
Meeting Agenda
November 20, 2015
section: Fixed Photo Radar (FPR) Camera Guidelines
http://www.oregonite.org/uploads/2/3/3/0/23307444/otcdc_meeting_packet_11-20-15.pdf

"At least three photographs are generated for each violation.
These include the vehicle in the radar beam approaching the
police vehicle, a close up photo of the driver in the violation
vehicle, and a close up picture of the violation vehicle
license plate. The violation vehicle’s speed is displayed on a
reader board at the back of the photo radar vehicle."
https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/citizen_engagement/Reports/MilwaukiePhotoRadar2014.pdf

NATIONAL COOPERATIVE HIGHWAY RESEARCH PROGRAM
Automated Enforcement for Speeding and Red Light Running
https://www.atsol.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/nchrp_rpt_729.pdf
Search for "quality control"
The vendor is responsible for the quality control checks of the citations.
Vendor Role

https://www.tualatinoregon.gov/sites/default/files/fileattachments/police/page/4813/2015_tualatin_legislative_report.pdf

https://www.portlandoregon.gov/auditservices/article/538290?
 

[Raindog]

BG,

 

I have some knowledge in this area.

 

1: Speedometer are rarely 100 percent correct. Tire size and inflation can effect the reading.

 

2: I have found over the years, many people have a very similar statement as yours. Even though the flash is momentary, many people instinctively take their foot off the gas in an anticipation that something on the road is going to change. The reaction can cause the car's rate of travel to drop by a few miles per hour.

 

3: PPB sets their photo radar cameras at 11.1 mph over the limit most other agencies are 7.

 

4. The $160 rate is cheap. There are no municipal fees like you would have in Washington or Clackamas County. The same ticket in Milwaukie would run around $490.

 

5. If you do not want to contest the charge, you can go to the window on the first floor of the Court House. If you have a good record, they will reduce the citation to $80 and send you on your way.

[barca]

Note that the "Quality Control" of FPR citations and images is usually done by the vendor.
I believe that "Xerox State and Local Solutions" provides the Cameras and "quality control of image processing" for Portland's Radar Cameras:
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140123/17345225971/secret-audit-baltimores-speed-cams-says-up-to-70000-tickets-were-issued-error-2012-alone.shtml
"...Xerox State and Local Solutions, has been caught operating faulty cameras -- and issuing tens of thousands of questionable citations..."
"...the system Xerox ran for three years was only unquestionably "right" less than two-thirds of the time..."

Three more stories on "Xerox State and Local Solutions"
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/sun-investigates/bs-md-ci-speed-camera-audit-20140122-story.html
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-ci-speed-cameras-20160121-story.html
http://www.oceamember.org/site/apps/nlnet/content3.aspx?c=khKSIYPxEmE&b=6372337&ct=14738949

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

BG,

 

I have some knowledge in this area.

 

1: Speedometer are rarely 100 percent correct. Tire size and inflation can effect the reading.

 

2: I have found over the years, many people have a very similar statement as yours. Even though the flash is momentary, many people instinctively take their foot off the gas in an anticipation that something on the road is going to change. The reaction can cause the car's rate of travel to drop by a few miles per hour.

 

3: PPB sets their photo radar cameras at 11.1 mph over the limit most other agencies are 7.

 

4. The $160 rate is cheap. There are no municipal fees like you would have in Washington or Clackamas County. The same ticket in Milwaukie would run around $490.

 

5. If you do not want to contest the charge, you can go to the window on the first floor of the Court House. If you have a good record, they will reduce the citation to $80 and send you on your way.

2 I know but me in butt before. I know my Chevy will decelarate 4 mph in 2 seconds of letting off the gas

[barca]

If you are thinking about fighting it, my opinion is the your best approach is probably to check the signage and distance requirements for both the Speed Limit and the Radar notification. If either or both violate the ORS, then you might have some points to make with the judge.

 

The hit on your insurance might also be a deciding factor in how you plea. How does "No contest" affect your rates? There does not seem to be a standard answer to that question.

I don't know the answer, either, but if someone has experience, I would like to learn about that.

 

If you have an insurance agent, you could discuss with him/her the impact on your insurance before deciding how to respond to the ticket.

[PumpkinHead]

You can try and find out how the ticket is processed. If the ticket goes to a third party and then sent to you, you can request to face your accuser in court. Most of the time these monitoring companies are out of state and never send anyone. Also as they can't take a picture of you, if it was in fact someone else driving you can turn them in and hope the ticket doesn't get re issued to them.

[PumpkinHead]

It is considered a non moving violation so your insurance shouldn't take a hit.

[InfestedKerrigan]

BG,

 

I have some knowledge in this area.

 

1: Speedometer are rarely 100 percent correct. Tire size and inflation can effect the reading.

 

2: I have found over the years, many people have a very similar statement as yours. Even though the flash is momentary, many people instinctively take their foot off the gas in an anticipation that something on the road is going to change. The reaction can cause the car's rate of travel to drop by a few miles per hour.

 

3: PPB sets their photo radar cameras at 11.1 mph over the limit most other agencies are 7.

 

4. The $160 rate is cheap. There are no municipal fees like you would have in Washington or Clackamas County. The same ticket in Milwaukie would run around $490.

 

5. If you do not want to contest the charge, you can go to the window on the first floor of the Court House. If you have a good record, they will reduce the citation to $80 and send you on your way.

 

*takes note and ponders how to find that information for the Medford PD*  Although, I'm convinced that several of our Photo Radars are setup to take routine pictures "at random," as it were.  Traffic volume monitoring as much as anything?  

[Raindog]

@Pumpkinhead,

 

1- The City of Portland sends an Officer to testify. Officer is certified by the Vendor. The technology is accepted practice by the bounty and state.

 

2- Photo Red Light and Photo Radar tickets are moving violations. They read as such on your driving record.

 

@InfestedKerrigan,

 

I can offer no advice about Medford and Jackson County court.

[Swan-of-War]

I've written in to plead mercy of the court and had it reduced by half. 

[dkieft]

@Pumpkinhead,

 

1- The City of Portland sends an Officer to testify. Officer is certified by the Vendor. The technology is accepted practice by the bounty and state.

 

2- Photo Red Light and Photo Radar tickets are moving violations. They read as such on your driving record.

 

 

Oh man they have thought of everything!!!! (probably after the first 5 cases did not hold up in court)

[dalmer]

Hello there,

 

Check if the court in question allows for a TICKET DEFERRAL.

 

What that means in english:

 

*  you pay the fine

*  the court puts the ticket under the rug for a period of time (2 years maybe)

*  no more tickets in that timeframe... poof and they burn the original ticket

*  nothing goes on your driving record, your insurance don't get jacked, etc.

 

Ask the court immediately by phone if they do DEFERRALS for moving violations.

 

Sure you pay money but nothing on the record so insurance isn't a factor, etc.

 

Stay safe,

 

don

[InfestedKerrigan]

Warm Springs has something like that.  It's called "You make a cash donation to the Tribe, and we'll pretend this ticket never happened."  My dad got out of a lot of speeding tickets thanks to Tribal Donations.

[PumpkinHead]

Thanks Raindog! I should have put the disclaimer that I live in Tacoma, WA and that I dealt with my red light tickets a few years back. It makes sense they have worked the police into the equation. Sorry for the bad info.

[Justjokin]

#ThanksRaindog

[Dark Trainer]

On 5/11/2016 at 11:28 AM, PumpkinHead said:

It is considered a non moving violation so your insurance shouldn't take a hit.

If you claim 'no contest' (instead of guilty/not guilty), your insurance might not take a hit as there is no admission of guilt. However, it's also 'if' they find out.

 

You can simply call the clerk, explain you don't speed (or whatever), and they'll cut the bill in half on the spot if you pay it (assuming you have no repeat history of this). No court appearance, etc. They pretty much cut tickets in half for nearly all of them. Unless you're a repeat offender.

[dalmer]

In WA state at least:

* confirmed not a moving violation, it's like a parking ticket

* not reported to DoL or insurance

* regardless of who is driving, the registered owner of the vehicle gets the ticket.  And if not paid, then vehicle registration/license plate renewal, etc. can be affected

(just retired from almost 30 years in law enforcement in case wondering about source)

[InfestedKerrigan]

4 hours ago, dalmer said:

In WA state at least:

* confirmed not a moving violation, it's like a parking ticket

* not reported to DoL or insurance

* regardless of who is driving, the registered owner of the vehicle gets the ticket.  And if not paid, then vehicle registration/license plate renewal, etc. can be affected

(just retired from almost 30 years in law enforcement in case wondering about source)

Sus

[dalmer]

46 minutes ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

Sus

Does "sus" mean "suspicious?"  Apologies if that's the case but just read up on RCW 46.63.220.  Please pay particular attention to:

[InfestedKerrigan]

2 hours ago, dalmer said:

 

I think suspicious means sus, but I'm not a language major.  I was just teasing, as you stated your expertise on the matter at the end for any doubters of your authority to speak on such. Thank you, kindly, for quoting the actual text, having taken me in seriousness, rather than catching my light hearted jest. ^_^ I hope retirement finds you with lots of fun games, and time with loved ones! 

 

Also, threadomancy, emirite?

[InfestedKerrigan]

Wait, did @Raindog pass away?

[Blustorm]

36 minutes ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

Wait, did @Raindog pass away?

I don't think so; at least, I haven't heard anything.