Lord Hanaur Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 1 minute ago, Lyraeus said: So, how many times did you have to check rules and stats? We're you playing for speed or casual? Well, I mean these are learning games so i don't think we were trying to set records or beat a deadline. I'd call that pretty casual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyraeus Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 28 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said: Well, I mean these are learning games so i don't think we were trying to set records or beat a deadline. I'd call that pretty casual. So time spent is meaningless because you don't have the experience with your new stats or rules, nor the rules of the game to have an accurate judge. How big were the games? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 3 hours ago, generalripphook said: So did flamers get screwed over? They used to have ignore cover and AP 5. Now with just a -1 save they can ignore cover but no other armor. But the trade off is cover is harder to get? Thus the -1 will be more applied to regular saves and not canceling saves? You can now Advance and fire them. With no penalty. That's pretty awesome. And yeah, ignoring Cover is way less needed in 8th, so that's not actually much of a loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 2 hours ago, Lyraeus said: So time spent is meaningless because you don't have the experience with your new stats or rules, nor the rules of the game to have an accurate judge. How big were the games? 2K. Practice for the tournament. almost identical list to what i played in 7 to keep things simple and he was playing an army we both knew exceedingly well. The changes made sense. I cannot place my finger on what took us so long though. We had rules questions but... That was not the issue. the issue was the way melee worked. Things just die harder than they did before, especially on the lower end of things, So there was a lot more alive later in the game than would have been the case in the previous edition. THAT felt like the number one reason. As I mentioned before, that piece of things REALLY changed the length of the game. If he had a more "super elite army" or something it might not have been as long but even against Guard hordes I have usually finished my games in 2.5 hours at tournaments. It will speed up. I know that of course. I am going to be keenly watching time and such though. The build is going to greatly determine the length in a way i don't think it really ever has before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyraeus Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 Just now, Lord Hanaur said: 2K. Practice for the tournament. almost identical list to what i played in 7 to keep things simple and he was playing an army we both knew exceedingly well. The changes made sense. I cannot place my finger on what took us so long though. We had rules questions but... That was not the issue. the issue was the way melee worked. Things just die harder than they did before, especially on the lower end of things, So there was a lot more alive later in the game than would have been the case in the previous edition. THAT felt like the number one reason. As I mentioned before, that piece of things REALLY changed the length of the game. If he had a more "super elite army" or something it might not have been as long but even against Guard hordes I have usually finished my games in 2.5 hours at tournaments. It will speed up. I know that of course. I am going to be keenly watching time and such though. The build is going to greatly determine the length in a way i don't think it really ever has before. Melee is easy though. Just like shooting. As long as you know your weapon stats then it is a thing. Being able to fall back is important becuase you. Can get Charges in T1. Melee is toned down becuase it is so easy to get into. It will take time to get used too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 3 hours ago, Romans832 said: How in hell do flamers reach a jet in the sky? Watch that flyer he is coming in for a strafing run... hit him while he's low! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 Just now, Lyraeus said: Melee is easy though. Just like shooting. As long as you know your weapon stats then it is a thing. Being able to fall back is important becuase you. Can get Charges in T1. Melee is toned down becuase it is so easy to get into. It will take time to get used too. Well... I don't think the complexity is the issue. What i cited as issues is the loss of Sweeping Advance and the loss of a subsequent melee phase. Both things combine to keep enemy units alive FAR longer than before. I also had mentioned that Morale did not do enough to compensate for this. So there is a lot of built in fortitude there for units that would have been routinely done and gone. This would have left you i nthe open in both versions. the difference is there wouldnt be two units sitting in front of you that should be dead...and aren't. It's a big deal. Truly. This seemed to elongate our rounds quite a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyraeus Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 2 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said: Well... I don't think the complexity is the issue. What i cited as issues is the loss of Sweeping Advance and the loss of a subsequent melee phase. Both things combine to keep enemy units alive FAR longer than before. I also had mentioned that Morale did not do enough to compensate for this. So there is a lot of built in fortitude there for units that would have been routinely done and gone. This would have left you i nthe open in both versions. the difference is there wouldnt be two units sitting in front of you that should be dead...and aren't. It's a big deal. Truly. This seemed to elongate our rounds quite a bit. It could be that you were using a 7th edition list in 8th edition environment. Your CC weapons could of changed based on how they work now or your choices of units. CC can be more grinding but at the same time, every time I loose a ton of models to CC and moral. Then again, I play Tau and we just fold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 8 minutes ago, Lyraeus said: It could be that you were using a 7th edition list in 8th edition environment. Your CC weapons could of changed based on how they work now or your choices of units. CC can be more grinding but at the same time, every time I loose a ton of models to CC and moral. Then again, I play Tau and we just fold I won both games but it is true that my list was a "7th Edition list" as you say. The Tau Empire were one of the two games I mentioned playing and it was against them that the melee issue was as pronounced as it was. In fact it would seem that the main positive impact of this brave new world falls to "lesser" combatants because...simply put...they are units that would otherwise be dead...but aren't. I killed 5, he rolled a 3, he lost one more and fell back. half the unit still alive and screening. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. You can see how much longer it would take to finish units this way. Two whole turns for a dedicated melee unit to wipe a single Tau Fire Warrior Squad? and lord forbid if he rolls the 6 for leadership because he auto-succeeds on a 6! It's kind of a thing. I cannot wait to try playing my IG this way. Lol. It's just too hilarious to contemplate after what i saw against tau Empire. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyraeus Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 10 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said: I won both games but it is true that my list was a "7th Edition list" as you say. The Tau Empire were one of the two games I mentioned playing and it was against them that the melee issue was as pronounced as it was. In fact it would seem that the main positive impact of this brave new world falls to "lesser" combatants because...simply put...they are units that would otherwise be dead...but aren't. I killed 5, he rolled a 3, he lost one more and fell back. half the unit still alive and screening. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. You can see how much longer it would take to finish units this way. Two whole turns for a dedicated melee unit to wipe a single Tau Fire Warrior Squad? and lord forbid if he rolls the 6 for leadership because he auto-succeeds on a 6! It's kind of a thing. I cannot wait to try playing my IG this way. Lol. It's just too hilarious to contemplate after what i saw against tau Empire. So what you are saying is that you need a more balanced list that will let you Shoot and Assault in ways that will let you take more units off the table better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 31 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said: I won both games but it is true that my list was a "7th Edition list" as you say. The Tau Empire were one of the two games I mentioned playing and it was against them that the melee issue was as pronounced as it was. In fact it would seem that the main positive impact of this brave new world falls to "lesser" combatants because...simply put...they are units that would otherwise be dead...but aren't. I killed 5, he rolled a 3, he lost one more and fell back. half the unit still alive and screening. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. You can see how much longer it would take to finish units this way. Two whole turns for a dedicated melee unit to wipe a single Tau Fire Warrior Squad? and lord forbid if he rolls the 6 for leadership because he auto-succeeds on a 6! It's kind of a thing. I cannot wait to try playing my IG this way. Lol. It's just too hilarious to contemplate after what i saw against tau Empire. Got me thinking Poxwalker spam is gonna be a thing.This very thing using Skellies,Zombies or Horrors is a thing in AoS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted June 20, 2017 Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Lyraeus said: So what you are saying is that you need a more balanced list that will let you Shoot and Assault in ways that will let you take more units off the table better. Pretty sure he is used to winning combats by just enough to force a fall back and then sweep with that high ini which is totally not a thing now. Need to shoot and assault to soften to crush point not just bearly get them running and poof them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted June 20, 2017 Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 52 minutes ago, Lyraeus said: So what you are saying is that you need a more balanced list that will let you Shoot and Assault in ways that will let you take more units off the table better. Or I could be saying that it slows the game way down. If im winning then it seems the list is effective thus far. Its just the time it absorbs that is really... unavoidably grindish. Im not worried about it as far as winning and losing. It just makes it less fun for the guy on the receiving end and the giving end. One take away though is that unless the target unit is especially low LD, multicharging cause a real drag on game time. BUT Finishing a single unit means allowing the other to shoot which is bad in some cases. So it seems that if you do the logical thing, you might be there a while. But it is the smart thing to do (against shooty stuff). So... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted June 20, 2017 Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, VonVilkee said: Pretty sure he is used to winning combats by just enough to force a fall back and then sweep with that high ini which is totally not a thing now. Need to shoot and assault to soften to crush point not just bearly get them running and poof them. You're right in a way. It is what im "used to" but that makes it sound as if Im unhappy about change. Im not. But its factually true that the morale, better saves, no sweeping advance and no subsequent combat phase is absolutely slowing the removal of models and units. My tactic seems to work still. Its just less fun to grind through it. And that is the shame of it. Not the final results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted June 20, 2017 Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 55 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said: You're right in a way. It is what im "used to" but that makes it sound as if Im unhappy about change. Im not. But its factually true that the morale, better saves, no sweeping advance and no subsequent combat phase is absolutely slowing the removal of models and units. My tactic seems to work still. Its just less fun to grind through it. And that is the shame of it. Not the final results. Yeah didn't have time to soften it no judgement just fact. Most all of us are used to being able to poof everything but marines... or fearless units but they were more expensive than these chaff units we now see screening things... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 Don't DE hold people in combat now? Or are you just playing your 7th ed Grot list, LH? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 3 hours ago, Lyraeus said: So what you are saying is that you need a more balanced list that will let you Shoot and Assault in ways that will let you take more units off the table better. 2 hours ago, VonVilkee said: Pretty sure he is used to winning combats by just enough to force a fall back and then sweep with that high ini which is totally not a thing now. Need to shoot and assault to soften to crush point not just bearly get them running and poof them. Yeah, it sounds like you just need to adapt your list to the new edition, LH, and not just play what you are used to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted June 20, 2017 Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 I purchased starter and Chaos Index. Pinkertons have fallen completely...or have some elements within remained loyal to the dead throne? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter.cosgrove Posted June 20, 2017 Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 Has anyone found a reliable list generator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted June 20, 2017 Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 9 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said: Has anyone found a reliable list generator? Pen and paper I trust myself better than myself and someone else's design 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted June 20, 2017 Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 13 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said: Has anyone found a reliable list generator? I've been liking this one. Haven't noticed any errors so far, but we have only been playing with Power Levels at this point, and those are easy to check. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyraeus Posted June 20, 2017 Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 7 hours ago, peter.cosgrove said: Has anyone found a reliable list generator? Battlescribe is one. https://webapplications-webroster.rhcloud.com/rc/web/#!/rosterCreator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 9 hours ago, WestRider said: I've been liking this one. Haven't noticed any errors so far, but we have only been playing with Power Levels at this point, and those are easy to check. This is pretty cool. No Astra Mil yet though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted June 20, 2017 Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 Yeah, they're still getting it up and running for 8th. They just got Space Wolves finished a day or two ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 New anniversary model. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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