Eldar list: fast, Faster, FASTEST!

[InfestedKerrigan]

So, list would rely on psychic powers and melee to take down vehicles?

 

How many points are we playing?  That list doesn't include the 3-36 support formations yet.  2500 point minimum for 9 farseers using the Warhost.

[pretre]

The Cheapest way is probably Wild Riders.

 

3 Windrider Hosts

-3 Farseers on Bike (345)

-3 Warlocks on Bike (1 model min)(150)

-27 Windriders (3x 3 units of 3)(459)

-3 Vypers (1 model min) (XXX)

 

3 Seer Councils

-6 Farseers (900)

-3 Warlocks (105)

 

 

1959 Points not including the Vypers, without any upgrades.

Seer Councils are 0-3 per Guardian Host.

 

So:

2 Windrider Host

0-6 Seer Councils

2-24 Additional detachments.

 

That'll save you points.

[pretre]

Seer Councils are 0-3 per Guardian Host.

 

So:

2 Windrider Host

0-6 Seer Councils

2-24 Additional detachments.

 

That'll save you points.

Hmm. I'd go with less Seer Councils

 

2 Windrider Hosts - 368 ea (736)

- 1 Farseers on Bikes - 115

- 1  Warlock on Bike - 50

- 3x3 Jetbikes with SL - 153

- Vyper - ~50

 

So that gives us 2 Farseers and 2 Warlocks.

 

Then 4 Seer Councils - 280 ea - 1120

2 Farseers on Bikes - 230

1 Warlocks on Bike - 50

 

So 1856 for 10 Farseers and 6x1 Warlocks on Bikes plus the other bits.

 

edit: Fixed Math.

[pretre]

That's a lot of warp charge.

[pretre]

Fixed the math.

[InfestedKerrigan]

I didn't catch the 0-3 perGuardian Host on the Seer council.  Ignore my previous list and comments.

[InfestedKerrigan]

So that's 21 Farseers in a single Detachment, instead of the 9 I was thinking.  >_>  Okay.  That is a mighty fine show of the flexibility afforded the host.

 

I'm appreciating 7th that much more.  I wonder what's happening with Fantasy Battles.

[Guest]

Hmm. I'd go with less Seer Councils

 

2 Windrider Hosts - 368 ea (736)

- 1 Farseers on Bikes - 115

- 1  Warlock on Bike - 50

- 3x3 Jetbikes with SL - 153

- Vyper - ~50

 

So that gives us 2 Farseers and 2 Warlocks.

 

Then 4 Seer Councils - 280 ea - 1120

2 Farseers on Bikes - 230

1 Warlocks on Bike - 50

 

So 1856 for 10 Farseers and 6x1 Warlocks on Bikes plus the other bits.

 

edit: Fixed Math.

Well, seer councils are a "command" slot, so only 0-3 of them per list. So, this is leaning towards two warhosts....

[Guest]

I didn't catch the 0-3 perGuardian Host on the Seer council.  Ignore my previous list and comments.

Fail...posted after and still missed this...

[pretre]

Well, seer councils are a "command" slot, so only 0-3 of them per list. So, this is leaning towards two warhosts....

Yep. Two sources is well accepted.

 

Edit: actually, I was right the first time. They are 0-3 per guardian host not war host. So that list is one war host.

[InfestedKerrigan]

Thanks for the fail fest guys.  It's been a laugh.

[JMGraham]

Orks with clan-style formations would be super rad. I hate how sterilized the orks have been since... Damn, it seems like 2nd was the last edition with clan-specific rules?

[Guest]

Orks with clan-style formations would be super rad. I hate how sterilized the orks have been since... Damn, it seems like 2nd was the last edition with clan-specific rules?

The orks are sterile because they are otherwise so close to being absorbed by nurgle...need to be clean orks...

[pretre]

Thanks for the fail fest guys. It's been a laugh.

No, it still is 21 farseers per war host. We didn't fail.

[pretre]

Orks with clan-style formations would be super rad. I hate how sterilized the orks have been since... Damn, it seems like 2nd was the last edition with clan-specific rules?

3 and 3.5 had some of that.

[InfestedKerrigan]

No, it still is 21 farseers per war host. We didn't fail.

 

4k point game with 3/4 of your points being invested in 21 models.  Seems Legit.  And a Beautiful Super Sized unit on Jets.  

[JMGraham]

OK, update. I have been painting my Eldar, but haven't been playing them. Finally got in a game last night.

 

Here's what I ran, with my updated thoughts in italics:

 

 

2000 Eldar CAD with Dark Eldar Allied Detachment

 

Jetbike Farseer, Singing Spear

 

I feel like Prescience and Guide are really useful, but that I lack some of the large unit sizes that really would give me more bang for my buck. I was also hoping that this would help me against flyers, but I really struggled with a single AV11 flyer last game. Of course, it had a re-rollable 4+ jink, but still...

 

DE Archon with agoniser, shadow field, and webway portal

5 D-scythe Wraithguard, in a Wave Serpent with bright lances,  holofields and ghostwalk matrix and vectored engine

 

I changed the kit on the Archon to give a bit more close-combat threat. In previous games the Wraithguard would strike, but then get bogged down in combat when they got mobbed. I'm not certain that the shadow field is necessary, but I the option of a 2++ save might make the unit more resilient. I still like the idea, but we'll see how it pans out. The unit seems really effective at taking down it's target right out of the gate, which is a nice counter to really threatening units or Lords of War. They haven't proven very resilient after that, but I reckon that's more about me dropping them in the middle of harm's way.

 

 

5 Scatter-laser Jetbikes

5 Scatter-laser Jetbikes

7 Warp Spiders (6 + Exarch)

7 Warp Spiders (6 + Exarch)

5 DE Warriors in a Venom with a splinter cannon

 

I changed the Warp Spider loadout to include Exarchs. The extra pip of BS and the auto-passing a bunch of leadership tests seems pretty worth it. The Warp Spiders are pure gold- the ability to jump before being shot is really a game-changer. It's a lot of S6 shooting (68 shots, plus up to 22 poisoned shots from the Venom), but I still haven't wrapped my head around how to best bring everything to bear, when to jink, etc. I think this is where my big learning curve is, how to use these things effectively. They hit hard, but they die really easily, and each death is a huge decrease in fire output.

 

3 Jetbikes

3 Jetbikes

 

Still solid performers, no issues here.

 

2 Hornets with Pulsars and Holofields

2 War Walkers with plasma (starcannons?)

 

I still like the models. This is where my high-strength AP can come in. No issues here, I like the loadouts.

 

5 Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent with bright lances,  shuriken cannon and holofield and ghostwalk matrix.

 

I replaced the Fire Prisms with this, as they were a continual disappointment. That single shot lance was a let-down for busting armour. This gives me another bright-lance tank for armour busting, and the Fire Dragons for more anti-armour. 

 

So, some questions for you, dear reader:

 

1) Overall, I'm pretty happy with the volume of fire I can put out against infantry and light vehicles, and with my anti-tank capabilities. I feel good about being able to take the biggest non-flying threat the opponent has with the Wraithguard. However, what about flyers? maybe the last game was an anomoly, but I opened up with an obscene amount of fire (much of it twin-linked) on a single AV11 flyer, and I ended up with maybe one hull point off of it. Granted, it had a rerollable jink, so maybe that won't always be the case. Is there something more I should be thinking about in regards to anti-flyer? 

 

2) How do y'all decide when to jink? I felt like my 5-man scatterbike units were so vulnerable (essentially they are 5 tactical marines in regards to tougness) that when faced with low AP fire, I didn't have the numbers to soak up fire and had to jink. Any rules y'all use to guide your choices?

 

3) Dropping things to 1850 would probably involve just dropping a unit of Warp Spiders. Any other thoughts on how to scale the list?

 

I've got to say, it's been hard for me to wrap my head around the Eldar, as I'm used to really resilient armies (Necrons and Nurgle CSM+Daemons) that have some really solid close-combat options. I'm used to being able to get up close and feel pretty safe. Relying on shooting and evasion is pretty foreign to me in 40k.

 

As always, any thoughts, advice, or comments are appreciated!

[dalmer]

Mr. Graham,

 

My two cents regarding your Corsair list and please mind you, I lack the actual playing experience that many of these fine folks have so factor that into my responses.  I have an Eldar army and have scribbled notes on army lists, thoughts on Codex entries and the like so some references come from my own, haven't-played-it-but-feel-it-would-work-like-this thoughts.

 

And regardless of the mathhammer or whatnot, I feel that tactics are tactics and can stand alone as something to think about.  List comments first then game thoughts, as I feel they're intertwined.

 

LIST COMMENTS

 

1.)  I liked your list and was *very* impressed with the sheer volume of fire that came from it.  Lots of good strength stuff in there and the only first-blush thing I can think of regarding anti-flyer:  Eldar missile launchers on the war walkers.  I know their points cost is a lot, but they can do anti-infantry or anti-armor and get skyfire for free, don't they?  So that's something to think about if that's the case.

 

2.)  As my speeders attest, I jink as much as possible.  Why?  Obviously so the unit doesn't die... but I think the reason I push the speeders and other jinkers in folks' faces is because if my opponent DOESN'T shoot at those units, causing them to jink, they face that dreaded counterpunch.  And no one likes that... so they shoot at the jinking unit, necessitating the jink.  However, that means all that firepower from my opponent is NOT going to my non-jinkers... so then those units survive and can push the advantage.  Hope that makes sense.  So for your Eldar list, if those models are priority threats for folks, they'll be jinking... so make sure the non-jinkers in your army are in position to hammer on the counterpunch.  That might mean that the jinkers get pushed forward to force your opponent to choose.

 

3.)  I feel that the Warp Spiders were way more of a threat and presented way more challenging tactical priority problems then that venom and Dark Eldar did.  I don't know points costs but I'm not sure what the venom did that improved your gameplan or tactical flexibility.  Sure, a lot of shots... but if I recall, those warp spiders pumped out hella shots, too.  And way more versatile.  I'm definitely impressed by that unit choice... talk about chasing one's tail!  Trying to nail those dudes down to shoot or assault them was pretty laughable, whereas the venom was caught up to and dealt with once I could exploit the angle.  And also the Dark Eldar boss guy... don't know if he's necessary.  I know you mention that you don't want your wraithguard bogged down in assault but what the hell is gonna charge a unit that has 5 x d3 auto hit D-weapon overwatch shots?  That kind of overwatch I would assume would give folks pause.  And if something doesn't care about that, what is the Dark Eldar boss guy gonna do against THOSE types of models?  Something to think about if you need to shave points.

 

 

TACTICAL THOUGHTS

 

You have a very fluid, rapidly-moving army.  Utilize that more instead of the Eldar "I'll wait until the end and zoom to an objective."  Because if you can be pincer attacked with a force that has enough long-range theat, your mobility doesn't allow you to get away from threats.  That's why I put the speeders on the right and the devastators on the left... I just basically tried to direct forces into the middle, where my shorter-ranged stuff could capitalize and I might be lucky enough to keep you boxed in for assault. 

 

Were I to play your army list I would totally hammer and anvil my opponent, holding a threat while chipping a flank.  I'd take that wraithguard unit and their templates o' doom and stuff that to the highest priority ASAP.  Have the wave serpent blam it's serpent shield spray hit and make it a sacrificial platform if necessary... because if folks shoot it, they're not shooting the wraithguard unit.  And that wraithguard unit wrecks face and will most likely create havoc and become priority one on your opponent's threat list... which is the anvil for you.  And hell, if you support with the fire dragon wave serpent there might not be a lot of stuff standing in the area after that kind of strike.  Just put the fire dragons on your hammer flank so the wraithguard cover them from the vacated flank.

 

And THAT anvil strike will allow your hammer to tear up a flank.  But you should do this by exploiting your mobility and all that firepower!  Roll up your hornets, warp spiders, jet bikes, venom and war walkers all to the same flank and just start rushing and shooting.  Because of their ability to have decent ranged attacks and still eating up table space, your opponent's flank will need to prioritize threats really quick.

 

To use our game as an example for mental pictures:

 

*  Wraithguard and fire dragons punch into the middle, like they did.  Darkshroud and speeders were your priority target, which I totally agree with.  If I ever played against a Dark Angels army (heresy!) and saw a Darkshroud, I would deal with it immediately.  I humbly feel that this one model provides way too much support for the rest of the army so it needs to die.  So you punching it was a great idea... I think you just punched it with too much of your army, which was my tactic.  Because think of where all those other shots would've gone had they not been directed at that unit! 

 

*  So when you punch into the middle, the hornets / venom / jetbikes / warp spiders that were on the table all pick a side and start shooting the crap out of that side.  So either my devastators and drop pod on the left get creamed or my drop pods on the right get creamed.

 

*  Aftermath:  the wraithguard, once you committed it, pretty much destroyed the Darkshroud and speeders.  You'd have all that shooty goodness on my left or right flank and I seriously doubt those flanks would've held.  Rinse/repeat... the wraithguard start after the remaining flank or continue to blast the middle survivors.  And your flanking force now comes up to support clearing out the middle of the table and gets positioned/prepped to either slag the remaining flank on your next turn or to prepare to receive the reserve rolls.

 

 

Not to destroy any further advantages I have against anyone I play against, but against a mobile army I have no chance of keeping up.  So I need to corral as best I can and get you commit firepower so I can press advantages and turn that into mobility.  Basically, if you're not dealing with a unit I can move/reposition it/utilize angles.  If I can dictate your movement by presenting threats you HAVE to deal with, that's a force multiplier for me because it's allowing my slower-than-your-force units to effectively catch up unopposed.  If my guys aren't being shot at, they can work to press an advantage.

 

When you did start unloading on the non-jinkers, stuff died pretty quickly.  If that happens two turns earlier than it did, I have major league problems and don't think I can recover... my stuff is spread out and isolated and you're too quick and shooty.  Divide and conquer is your game and I humbly submit that the hammer and anvil would be really effective at that.

 

Hopefully this makes sense.

 

Stay safe,

 

don

[JMGraham]

Great ideas, Don, thanks! I agree completely - I tried to play across the entire board, when I didn't have to. I had the mobility to pile up on one flank, and see what dropped in. If I liked it, I could stick around. If I didn't, I could switch to the weak flank. Given how slowly your reserved trickled in, I'd have been better able to deal with each of your pieces until the big auto-drop on turn 4. Lesson learned. I'll try sticking my nasty area-denial pieces (the wraithguard and fire dragons) as close to the center as is reasonable (given their targets), and move the bulk of the army toward one side or another.

 

Regarding jinking, I'm of the mind that, against you, I put too much into those units that were jinking. I was wasteful my first turn because I didn't notice the rhinos in the corner and thought the land speeders were my only target. Throughout the game, once I got the unit to jink, their firepower was neutralized for the next turn. Shooting just enough to get them to jink and then focusing the remainder of the fire on the non-jinkers would have been the smart play. That way it takes minimal firepower to keep the speeders pegged down, and I can clean up the rest. Heck, the same should have been true of the flier. One jink means it can't use the blast weapon the following turn. 

 

 

 

When you did start unloading on the non-jinkers, stuff died pretty quickly.  If that happens two turns earlier than it did, I have major league problems and don't think I can recover... my stuff is spread out and isolated and you're too quick and shooty.  Divide and conquer is your game and I humbly submit that the hammer and anvil would be really effective at that.

 

Good to know that some of it comes down to target priority. That, I feel I can learn!

 

The Venom is really there as a tax for the Archon, who allows the wraithguard shenanigans to occur. With that said, Loren would berate me for putting the Venom right in the middle of the action. They're essentially made of paper, so that was my fault entirely! As to the role it fills, Venoms really shine against high-toughness creatures like Tyranids and Wraithknights. They wound everything on a 4+, and with that volume of fire, some saves are going to be failed.

 

You know, I totally forgot that my serpent shields could be fired, and I forgot that they ignore cover. That would have been another (pretty wonderful) answer to the jinking and shrouded speeders. Damn. 4d6 S6 ignores cover shots would have been brutal - even for the flyer (with the addition of guide). Smarter every day!

 

Thanks again for the great game!

[VonVilkee]

Jim due to changes poison only wounds wraith knights on 6s gargantuan creatures have some rules to change poison

[fluger]

You can do it, Jim!  

[JMGraham]

Jim due to changes poison only wounds wraith knights on 6s gargantuan creatures have some rules to change poison

 

D'oh! That's right, they're gargantuan creatures, now. Is the same true of the big Riptide suits or other Tau suits?

[fluger]

Riptide will almost assuredly become a GC, but isn't currently.  New book will be out soon, then we'll know.  

[InfestedKerrigan]

  I wonder what's happening with Fantasy Battles.

 

6 months later Fantasy Battles Rests In Peace.

[fluger]

6 months later Fantasy Battles Rests In Peace.