JMGraham Posted January 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Gonna wait and see how the new Tyranid book pans out first, but I may switch plans and make this a reality. Time will tell! One thought - Would it be weird to drop one Fire prism and replace it with a Wraithlord? I'd love some flexibility for assault, and with the Iyanden book I could make him my warlord to better leverage the Warlord traits and Spirit Marks and what not. It would be the one painfully slow piece in an otherwise blazing army, but it might be cool. Twin bright lances for anti-armour, with good assault ability. Would he stick out as a sore thumb compared to how fast everyone else is? EDIT: Oh yeah - almost forgot. Had a game with borrowed figs vs. Munkie. Good fun! The speed was as promised, and those Wraithguard were just brutal. I lost a big chunk when he stole the initiative on me, but pulled out a solid win in the end. I was scared to death of assault, but otherwise the mobility and shooting was lethal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Eldar Fairies glow. Avatar's might grants fearless. PEW PEW goes my shields. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacewolved Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Saim-Hann 2k Autarch w/ jetbike, fusion gun, laser lance, mantle of the laughing god - 145pts Farseer w/ jetbike -115pts 6x Avengers in wave serpent w/ scatter laser, shuriken cannon -195pts 6x Avengers in wave serpent w/ scatter laser, shuriken cannon -195pts 6x Avengers in wave serpent w/ scatter laser, shuriken cannon -195pts 5x warp spiders w/ exarch, fast shot -115pts 5x warp spiders w/ exarch, fast shot -115pts 6x jetbikes w/ 2x shuriken cannon -122pts 6x jetbikes w/ 2x shuriken cannon -122pts 6x jetbikes w/ 2x shuriken cannon -122pts Crimson hunter - 160pts Crimson hunter - 160pts Vyper squadron w/ 3 bright lances -180pts Nothing moves less than 12' a turn, 40+ S6 shots a turn, lots of troops, decent anti-air. You could drop the vyper squad and 2 guardians out of each squad and add a basic wraithknight but that's not very Saim-Hann like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jollyork Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Are those Guardians supposed to be Dire Avengers? Because you can't take 7 Guardians. Minimum 10 for 90 points. And Warp Spiders can't have fast shot without an Exarch, which is another 10 points on your listed price. And Serpents should always have holo-fields. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 One thought - Would it be weird to drop one Fire prism and replace it with a Wraithlord? I'd love some flexibility for assault, and with the Iyanden book I could make him my warlord to better leverage the Warlord traits and Spirit Marks and what not. It would be the one painfully slow piece in an otherwise blazing army, but it might be cool. Twin bright lances for anti-armour, with good assault ability. Would he stick out as a sore thumb compared to how fast everyone else is? It would be slightly out of place, but not so much so, the real issue is he's got a HUGE target on his head now. Even T8 and 3+ armor and ideally cover isn't going to make him last long against dedicated firepower. With the bonus of getting StWL, he's going to have to hide more than snipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busbina Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Two lords with dual bright lances is pretty good backfield anti-tank, give them dual flamers as well and you can stick them in front if your playing an assault army. The hornet does this better for less points however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMGraham Posted January 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Didn't know about the hornet before. Man, it seems pricy, though. 150 points for twin bright lances with holofields. Seems better off taking a fire prism for the points (armour 11 hurts!), unless I'm missing something? I also like the wasp... I love the corsair war walkers. Did they update the rules for the new eldar codex yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMGraham Posted January 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Holy cow, I was looking at old point costs. Two hornets for the cost of a fire prism seems great. Fits the theme, as well. I like it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacewolved Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Are those Guardians supposed to be Dire Avengers? Because you can't take 7 Guardians. Minimum 10 for 90 points. And Warp Spiders can't have fast shot without an Exarch, which is another 10 points on your listed price. And Serpents should always have holo-fields. Yes they are! To both things. I'll change that. It was like 4am when I wrote this. And if you only have one or to serpents, holo-fields would be cool. But when your almost spamming them holofields are not needed, imo. And aren't hornets like 85pts? Cause they would be amazing as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jollyork Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 Hornets with pulse lasers are the best unit in the game (point-wise). And that's not some theoryhammer, I have used them several times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMGraham Posted January 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 OK, now I'm looking at this for 1997 points. I gave up shuriken cannons on the Windriders and Wave Serpents (and the singing spear I was planning for the Farseer) to fit in the Hornets, but I really like the way it's shaping up. Fast as balls with lethal firepower, and it'll crumble like a baby if you pin it down in close combat. It totally feels like the fast and lethal Eldar Corsair strikeforce that I was after. I'm still not certain about some of the upgrades, but those are the sort of things that would get sussed out in playtesting. Here's my rationale for some of the odder choices: Wave Serpents: The Vectored Engines for the Wave Serpents are to optimize the placement of the Wraithguard. Those D-scythes can be so lethal in the right position, that it seems worth the points to make sure they get where they need. Likewise, the SPirit Stones are there to make it so, even if the Wave Serpent gets destroyed, they still should be able to fire. My understanding if that they get hit with crew shaken/stunned, the occupants can only snapfire on the turn they disembark, right? Which means template weapons can't fire. Given the cost of the payload, this seems worth the investment to make sure it gets delivered, Warp Spiders: Exarch with Spinneret rifles are to let me play the range game. The unit can fire at all of the models in range of any of the weapons (provided all of my models are in range of at least one of the enemy). Given the close range of the spinners, this lets me keep all of my guys just at 12" from the closest enemy model while the spinneret can reach all of the enemy models. I think the extra 6" of the spinneret rifle may help keep the warpspiders at a safer distance. I also don't have any dedicated flyer defense, but I'm of the mind that I can put out so much high strength firepower, and that I can generally put it where I want it, that, with the addition of guide and prescience, I should be pretty set. Any other thoughts or suggestions? [1997 points total] (155) Farseer + Jetbike + Mantle of the Laughing God (70) SpiritSeer (51) 3 Jetbikes (51) 3 Jetbikes (51) 3 Jetbikes (210) 5 Wraithguard + D-scythes (160) Wave Serpent +(Scatter or Bright Lance) + Holofield + Spirit Stones + Vectored Engines (210) 5 Wraithguard + D-scythes (160) Wave Serpent +(Scatter or Bright Lance) + Holofield + Spirit Stones + Vectored Engines (177) 8 Warpspiders + Exarch + Spinneret Rifle (177) 8 Warpspiders + Exarch + Spinneret Rifle (190) 2 Hornets + Pulse Lasers + Holofield (175) Fire Prism + Holofield + Crystal Targeting Matrix+Shuriken Cannon (160) 2 Warwalkers + 2 bright lances Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generalripphook Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 The war walkers seem a little out of place being slow compared to the rest of the army Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMGraham Posted January 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 They're coming on from a board edge with infiltrate, so while they can't re-position quickly, they're going to show up where they need to be. After that, they still have Eldar battle focus, so they'll be moving 7 to 12 inches a turn. By definition, I guess Eldar stuff is fast. The War Walkers aren't as fast as some other stuff, but they still play into the tactical movement theme really well. I do wish the Wasp Corsair War Walkers were available as heavy support, though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacewolved Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 If your just putting models to have fun fluffy games your list will do fine. But if you want to play against anything that is a hard list you will be blown off the table. I really like the hornets. They are flyers right? War walkers are dead turn 2 to bolters, the wave serpents have way to much stuff on them. They are there to pop light transports turn one then move the overpriced, fragile wraithguard onto objectives. Spiritseer is a tax for wraithguard. MothLG is not really useful on a farseer. Jetbikes are solid, some of the best objective grabbers in the game. So again if your playing for fluff or in a beer n' pretzel type game you'll be good and have a blast. Against anything else I see this list being tabled by turn 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMGraham Posted January 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 Nah, Hornets aren't flyers; they're fast skimmers. Likely, my Wave Serpents do have way too much stuff on them (for the reasons stated above), That one's a lesson that would sort itself out in a game or two. I'm quite surprised to hear you call this a fluffy, beer-and-pretzels list that would be blown off the table. We must play in very, very different metas. I would be quite shocked if I were tabled on Turn 4 against any army (though, I'd welcome the lesson - I reckon I'd learn a lot if such a thing happened). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacewolved Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 Wow... I love this forum. No negative responses to criticism. This is so much better than dakka. =) But yea southern Oregons meta is a little more cutthroat. Even non-power gamers tend to run efficient list. So the reason I say its not a hard list, and that's fine, is you have a lot of points tied up in units that don't need that many points. Or just bad units themselves. Example, you have 800+ points in two troop choices that will die in two rounds of shooting. Wraithguard by themselves are bad, way overcosted and fragile. But if you have a wraithknight or 2 then your spreading out the target priority. What are warp spiders job? Harassment and transport popping. But you only need one or two units of 5 to do. They then spend the rest of the time shooting at troops. I love fireprisms. They just don't do anything. You have better options elsewhere. Farseers just need a bike. Nothing else. They twin-link two units, then hide until its time to contest. Mantle of the laughing god is amazing on a autarch with a bike and laser lance. He is great at hitting troops, kill three or four then running across the board and murdering more unsuspecting guardsmen. War walkers are just...meh. Hornets do there job better. You also have no anti-air. Which if you had 3-4 wave serpents could just rely on mass shooting. Or, even though they are made of cardboard and duct-tape, crimson hunters. They are lethal to flyers if you avoid intercepter and go 2nd. Still with vector dancer they are the most agile flyer out there. And if you were close-ish to my area I would love to play you. I've been dying to have my semi-fluffy sons of Medusa see some action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 What is a hornet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 [1997 points total] (155) Farseer + Jetbike + Mantle of the Laughing God (70) SpiritSeer Solid overall, I can see a skilled opponent making lots of hay with a laughingbikeseer. (51) 3 Jetbikes (51) 3 Jetbikes (51) 3 Jetbikes Jetbikes are amazing for what they do, no complains here. (210) 5 Wraithguard + D-scythes (160) Wave Serpent +(Scatter or Bright Lance) + Holofield + Spirit Stones + Vectored Engines (210) 5 Wraithguard + D-scythes (160) Wave Serpent +(Scatter or Bright Lance) + Holofield + Spirit Stones + Vectored Engines I think there are too many points on the wave serpents in general, but I see the rationale, if you get a stun/shaken, then the guys inside can't shoot when they get out, which would be brutal. The vectored engines allow you to push forward really far which helps extend their paltry range. As nasty as d-scythes are though, I think you'd be better served with the normal shooting weapon instead for even more range. Just a preference thing. (177) 8 Warpspiders + Exarch + Spinneret Rifle (177) 8 Warpspiders + Exarch + Spinneret Rifle (190) 2 Hornets + Pulse Lasers + Holofield I have no idea what hornets are, I'm assuming some kind of Forgeworld thing that is getting let in for some reason. I really don't like FW stuff, so I'll drop that, as to the warpspiders, I wouldn't ever take an exarch on them because if you roll doubles on the move, then you lose a random model. If you lose the exarch, that is sad. Also, the spinneret doesn't help you do much that the rest of your list already does, shave points here. A unit of 8 stock warp spiders are golden. They'll probably be on the receiving end of buffs from the laughingbikeseer. That's nice. (175) Fire Prism + Holofield + Crystal Targeting Matrix+Shuriken Cannon (160) 2 Warwalkers + 2 bright lances Can't recommend war walkers with dual starcannons enough. Been using a unit of 3 for a while now and they are straight up brutal. Fire prism by itself is less sexy IMO. Talk to me about the CTM, what's the plan with this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 Wow... I love this forum. No negative responses to criticism. This is so much better than dakka. =) But yea southern Oregons meta is a little more cutthroat. Even non-power gamers tend to run efficient list. Ordo is rad, no question. Just curious as to where in Southern Oregon you're playing such top-flight generals? So the reason I say its not a hard list, and that's fine, is you have a lot of points tied up in units that don't need that many points. Or just bad units themselves. Example, you have 800+ points in two troop choices that will die in two rounds of shooting. Wraithguard by themselves are bad, way overcosted and fragile. But if you have a wraithknight or 2 then your spreading out the target priority. I really disagree on wraithguard being fragile and bad. In cover they are going to be pretty tough for a LOT of units to dislodge. Also, the way JMGraham has loaded out his waveserpents means that they can stay ensconced for a good time until they bust out when needed. They are a good counter point to the jetbikes which are truly fragile, but highly mobile. What are warp spiders job? Harassment and transport popping. But you only need one or two units of 5 to do. They then spend the rest of the time shooting at troops. They do lots of work. Guiding them makes them fairly functional as anti-air (check out some of the Frontline Gaming bat reps about this). Units of 8 are really deadly. They aren't just harassment, they are straight up short range murder dealers. My unit of 8 is consistently a high damage dealer. I love fireprisms. They just don't do anything. You have better options elsewhere. Agree somewhat. Blasts can be frustrating sometimes. Farseers just need a bike. Nothing else. They twin-link two units, then hide until its time to contest. Mantle of the laughing god is amazing on a autarch with a bike and laser lance. He is great at hitting troops, kill three or four then running across the board and murdering more unsuspecting guardsmen. It isn't too much of an investment to make him REALLY hard to kill, which, considering how exposed he will be in general, is a great thing. Being able to move out into open and be more reasonably capable of survival is nice. War walkers are just...meh. Hornets do there job better. Again, I don't know about hornets, but war walkers are great. Move shoot run is great at keeping them out of LOS from nasty stuff, outflank can be great, and their decent long range plus their ability to move and then run and then shoot gives you a brutal threat range. They are great units to guide/prescience as well. You also have no anti-air. Which if you had 3-4 wave serpents could just rely on mass shooting. Or, even though they are made of cardboard and duct-tape, crimson hunters. They are lethal to flyers if you avoid intercepter and go 2nd. Still with vector dancer they are the most agile flyer out there. I think the warpspiders with guide/prescience are a good answer to this. As well, not a ton of flyers present any real threat to the majority of the list outside of night scythes due to objective grabbing shenanigans later. And if you were close-ish to my area I would love to play you. I've been dying to have my semi-fluffy sons of Medusa see some action. JMGraham is not only an amazing painter, and totally fun to play against, he also happens to have an extraordinarily keen mind for generalship. He was murderous with Wood Elves in 7th ed Fantasy, and I can see the way his agile mind would mesh well with a dance, shoot, strike the weakpoints type of army like this. Honestly, everyone in the world should have the privilege of playing him once in their life. As far as getting tabled in 4 turns, I highly doubt it. First of all, I expect JMGraham will use reserves and LOS blocking to his advantage to basically be out of sight for as long as possible, then leverage his mobility and durability and hard-striking potential to clobber weak points and still stay as out of danger as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMGraham Posted January 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 Yep, Forge World. Hornets are 11/11/10 2HP fast skimmers with star engines stock, and a pair of eldar weapons (which can include pulse lasers). They also have a rule that they can still snap fire their weapons after moving flat out. With Holofields they chock in at 95 points a piece. They pretty much epitomize what I'm after - fast, lethal, and fragile as hell. Depending on the setting (and the prevailing opinion on Forge World), what else would you suggest slotting in? Before I had filled that space with another Fire Prism (which I still might), but I liked the variety (and the look) that the Hornets have. JMGraham is not only an amazing painter, and totally fun to play against, he also happens to have an extraordinarily keen mind for generalship. He was murderous with Wood Elves in 7th ed Fantasy, and I can see the way his agile mind would mesh well with a dance, shoot, strike the weakpoints type of army like this. Honestly, everyone in the world should have the privilege of playing him once in their life. Aww Fluger, I'm blushing! Re: the Mantle Seer, I used the Mantle because I don't know where else to put him. I want him to be mobile, stay out of the thick of it, and still be able to support my troops. The thing is, I don't really have any appropriate units for him to hang with - no backfield objective holders of the like. I can dance around and keep him out of sight, but figured the Mantle would be nice extra insurance (though by no means a guarantee of safety). I've heard the same thing about the Warp Spider Exarch from just about everyone. You'd think I'd listen! I imagine that'll be something that, after some playing, I'll be able to realize for myself that my Theoryhammer doesn't match reality (or, at least, isn't worth the points). I'll give the non-D-scythe Wraithguard a thought. That'd be some nice point savings as well. In my game vs Mukie, though, those D-scythes were incredible. Actually, the Spirit Seer was really useful (not a tax at all). The ability to Battle Focus with them (I was using Iyanden) let them get just into the position they needed to delete one of Munkie's squads at a key moment. The CTM for the Fire Prism is just to give it some added mobility. That one turn of being able to move halfway across the board and still fire the big gun just sounds like fun. If I get boxed in and need to reposition, or if I want to get behind a vehicle, or if the flow of battle shifts, I like the idea of a get out of jail free card that doesn't make me sacrifice a turn of shooting. I should also point out that I'm not looking for an optimal army; just a competitive one that fits the playstyle I'm after. I'm thinking this fits the bill, it's just a matter of tweaking and fine tuning (for which I really appreciate the feedback!). It's been my experience that, at high levels of play, the difference between a competitive list with some less optimized choices and a purely optimized only-the-best list is negligible. At that level of play, it's more about how well each player can respond to their opponent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 It's been my experience that, at high levels of play, the difference between a competitive list with some less optimized choices and a purely optimized only-the-best list is negligible. At that level of play, it's more about how well each player can respond to their opponent. Indeed. I see where you are going with most of this list, I see what you are going for. I don't think it really needs too much beyond tweaking to get where you want it to be. I think you'll find that this will play like your wood elves, but on crack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacewolved Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 @JMGraham, There you go! If your just playing for fun then take anything you want is the way to go. I'm way to waac when I look at things and I have to rein myself in. With that said, I still think 800+ is too much for two troop choices (wraithguard, transport, spiritseer tax) with out another extremely high threat unit. Like a wraithknight or avatar. @fluger Medford/Grants Pass area. There are still really fluffy players here, but alot people like to step it up a little. Screamerstar, Fmc circus, cronair, 5th Ed tervigon/mc spam, gk/crons, wave serpent spam, quad helldrake all show up in my meta regularly. No triptide, taudar, or baron star though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 Glad to hear there's a good showing in Medford and such. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jollyork Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Uh... there's nothing soft about this list at all, and I am quite sure it will blow most anything else off the table. Having used variations of this list (as most Eldar players have), and being an abysmal tactician myself, I can assure you any player with a modicum of skill can dominate with this list. I think the pieces that stand out as sore thumbs are: Mantle Autarch: I've used this guy a couple times and I just don't like him. Yes, he can do what it says on the tin, and pick off a few targets, but having a second Farseer is SOOOOO much better for your whole army. EDIT: misread the list, you don't have a Mantle Autarch. I will still note that 2 Farseers is awesome, and even with one, having him in a unit is better than the Mantle. Fire Prism: it's a great tank, but just doesn't seem to fit with your list. If we're talking fluff, I'd love to see you replace this with something else. You can always take more Hornets, because trust me, once you use them you will never NOT use them. A couple other notes: -Holo-fields on the Hornets tend to be overkill, and you can use those points elsewhere. Not because they're not useful, but because your opponent is busy with other things (if you're playing right). After they've overlooked the Hornets once, you've already wiped out whatever threatens them. -You will need to test this against your playing style, but I found Vectored Engines on the Serpents to be a mixed bag. Yes, you get the D-Scythes in range quickly, but you also expose your non-shielded rear armour to enemy fire. Keeping those Serpents alive after they've dropped the WG is not like keeping worthless Rhinos alive. When I play, the Serpents aren't just about attacking, they are ridiculously useful in absorbing enemy fire, which keeps all your other supa-killies alive (Hornets, Spiders, etc.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Only thing I'm confused about is that vectored engines help you NOT expose rear armor by allowing you to spin around after shooting, so you SHOULDN'T be exposed. Curious as to your thoughts here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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