Eldar list: fast, Faster, FASTEST!

[busbina]

Hornets are pretty much dual weapon ravagers that Eldar can take in fast attack, they cost about 2/3 the cost of a ravager too. They can be taken in squads too, so you can spam them pretty easy.

[jollyork]

Only thing I'm confused about is that vectored engines help you NOT expose rear armor by allowing you to spin around after shooting, so you SHOULDN'T be exposed.  Curious as to your thoughts here.  

 

Sorry, I'll clarify. Most people take VEs so they can shoot and soften up a target, then spin and unload their unit. And even if you don't, the VE rules say "a vehicle... can pivot to face any direction immediately after resolving its shooting attack..." so you are generally forced to face the enemy for both purposes. I prefer moving Flat Out turn 1, then unload and move my WS away on turn 2, which eliminates the need for VEs and those points go elsewhere. 

[fluger]

How would what you are describing work?  They couldn't shoot, then spin and disembark the unit after shooting.  

 

Your strategy that you are employing would function fine, but if you moved up so close that a unit of d-scythe wrathgaurd could disembark and then shoot at the target, you are certainly within assault range of that unit.  And, while not all units can threaten with assault, wave serpents are highly susceptible to krak grenade toting...anythings.  

 

The VEs allow Jim to move up and disembark as far as possible and create the greatest possible threat range for those units, while simultaneously not forcing him to expose his rear armor.  

[JMGraham]

Sorry, I'll clarify. Most people take VEs so they can shoot and soften up a target, then spin and unload their unit. And even if you don't, the VE rules say "a vehicle... can pivot to face any direction immediately after resolving its shooting attack..." so you are generally forced to face the enemy for both purposes. I prefer moving Flat Out turn 1, then unload and move my WS away on turn 2, which eliminates the need for VEs and those points go elsewhere. 

 

Wat'chu talkin  about, JO? Fluger's comments are in line with my thinking. During the movement phase, move into position, with the rear facing where you want to go. Unload the Wraithguard. Forgo a turn of shooting (or at least shoot in a different direction), and then use VE to turn back around and protect your rear. That should give the Serpent a bit more survivability, while eeking out another 4 or 5 inches for the Wraithguard. Chances are, any assault threats to the Serpent will have been wiped out by the Wraithguard. Combined with the Spiritseer (who I think is great, and don't see as a "tax" at all), this means a 6" move, plus a 6" deployment, plus a d6" run, before laying down the flamer templates. Given how expensive (and how utterly devastating) the Wraithguard are, I figured it's worth the investment to get them where they need to be.

 

Fluger, convince me to take starcannons. My thought with the lances is, while I have plenty of high strength shooting in this list, I don't have much to reliably take out AV 13 or 14. I'll annihilate light vehicles, but for the heavy stuff, I just have the Fire Prism. Against TEQ, I have volume of high strength fire, with some armor-ignoring shenanigans (D-scythe, monofilimant). If I take the hornets, they'll be putting out 8 S8 AP2 shots. 8 more S6 AP2 shots from the starcannons would be great, but doesn't really add to what I already have. I'm thinking that the 4 S8 AP1 Lance shots can still be effective in an anti-TEQ role, but also fill a hole in my army.

[JMGraham]

I think the pieces that stand out as sore thumbs are:

 

Mantle Autarch: I've used this guy a couple times and I just don't like him. Yes, he can do what it says on the tin, and pick off a few targets, but having a second Farseer is SOOOOO much better for your whole army. 

EDIT: misread the list, you don't have a Mantle Autarch. I will still note that 2 Farseers is awesome, and even with one, having him in a unit is better than the Mantle. 

 

Fire Prism: it's a great tank, but just doesn't seem to fit with your list. If we're talking fluff, I'd love to see you replace this with something else. You can always take more Hornets, because trust me, once you use them you will never NOT use them. 

 

 

 

Any suggestions on what to replace the Fire Prism with? If they're as good as folks say, I probably shouldn't do more than 2 Hornets. I had added the CTM so that the Prism could fit in with the speed theme for at least one turn. Otherwise, you're right - 6" isn't exactly fast. I reckon I could do more War Walkers, but I am interested in the variety that a Prism would add. Plus, the model is just so cool!

 

I'd love to put the Farseer in a unit, but short of beefing up a jetbike squad and starting with it on the board, I don't know what to do with him.

 

Man, I wish the Corsair list was updated. It'd be way cool to ally Craftworld and Corsairs together, with a bunch of Wasps for troops. I love the idea of a bunch of Zentradi Battlepods dropping from the skies and leaping around.

[fluger]

Fluger, convince me to take starcannons. My thought with the lances is, while I have plenty of high strength shooting in this list, I don't have much to reliably take out AV 13 or 14. I'll annihilate light vehicles, but for the heavy stuff, I just have the Fire Prism. Against TEQ, I have volume of high strength fire, with some armor-ignoring shenanigans (D-scythe, monofilimant). If I take the hornets, they'll be putting out 8 S8 AP2 shots. 8 more S6 AP2 shots from the starcannons would be great, but doesn't really add to what I already have. I'm thinking that the 4 S8 AP1 Lance shots can still be effective in an anti-TEQ role, but also fill a hole in my army.

 

Quickly, Bright Lances are only AP2, same as starcannons.  

 

I run a list with 3 wave serpents with TL BL and under-slung shuricannon.  For me, having the starcannons gives me more mid-strength shooting with AP2, which, frankly, you can never have enough of.  

 

I have a unit of 3 war walkers with dual starcannons.  I stole the idea from Lord Hanaur after running dual scatter lasers for ages (including 5th edition).  I can run the numbers for you, but the AP2 really helps against vehicles with the bonus on the chart (offset by fewer hits, of course), but really helps clear out infantry and MCs of a variety of stripes.  Think of Riptides and Broadsides for instance.  Being able to come in on a flank via outflank or just hide, move-shoot-run to cover with that 36" range REALLY helps you have a chance against those nasties.  

[jollyork]

Jim, you can replace the FP with some DE Allies in Venoms, that will give you the Corsairs feel until the FW list gets updated. Add some Grisly Trophies and you will never fail a psychic test! 

 

As for VEs, go ahead and do what you want to do, as there's no wrong way to eat a Reese's - I mean, field a WG death squad. To me, Eldar lists are always an exercise to slice 5 more points of this unit, 10 out of that one, etc., because with those handfuls of points you can buy entire additional units of killiness. After trying VEs a few times, I found the points could be used much better elsewhere, while the 1st turn Flat Out and 2nd turn disembark not only gave me more tactical flexibility but protected both units better. 

[jollyork]

Oh, and if you want to avoid Allies, a Night Spinner with CTM is a hoot. First turn torrent? Yes, please. Roll up your flank with a more torrent, or bombard your fleeing troops? Yes, please. 

[JMGraham]

Oohh.. Night Spinners look kinda sexy. It's a dual kit that's easy to magnetize, I hope?

 

WG death squad is right! They were really quite brutal.

 

I actually don't know Dark Eldar well at all, and have been avoiding them because HQs tend to be an expensive tax to pay for allies unless you really want the HQ. What are the viable (for this sort of list and theme) Dark Eldar HQ?

 

It does sound like a lot of these suggestions are ones I can switch between by switching out upgrades or weapons - which is good!

[fluger]

Night Spinners ARE sexy.  I think the kit is easy to magnetize.  

[jollyork]

I like Venom spam. You can take a cheap HQ, a Trueborn squad, and a Warrior squad, packed into two Venoms, and it's very cheap. Splinter Cannons can tear up infantry. And once you've used those Grisly Trophies to reroll your psychic roll of 12, you'll never leave home without them! 

 

You can also take a cheap Haemonculus and Wracks as Troops. Again, put them in Venoms and pick off the weak, then capture objectives at the end. 

 

And finally, you can throw Wyches with Haywires into a Venom. Good bye, vehicle-of-your-choice. 

 

There are some other good choices, though Venoms fit your theme best, and I won't prattle on. 

[intrizic]

I like Venom spam. 

YES !!!!

 

I'll prattle a little.  Trueborn are an elite choice, they can take 2 splinter cannons in a min squad of 3.  Pack them into a venom with an extra splinter cannon, you effectively have 2 venoms if you are able to sit still and 1 3/4 venoms if you only move 6".

 

If you have DE questions I volunteer myself and Kevin.  We play pretty divergent types of DE armies, but between the two of us, we cover the spread.

[Munkie]

Fluger, convince me to take starcannons. My thought with the lances is, while I have plenty of high strength shooting in this list, I don't have much to reliably take out AV 13 or 14. I'll annihilate light vehicles, but for the heavy stuff, I just have the Fire Prism. Against TEQ, I have volume of high strength fire, with some armor-ignoring shenanigans (D-scythe, monofilimant). If I take the hornets, they'll be putting out 8 S8 AP2 shots. 8 more S6 AP2 shots from the starcannons would be great, but doesn't really add to what I already have. I'm thinking that the 4 S8 AP1 Lance shots can still be effective in an anti-TEQ role, but also fill a hole in my army.

 

While it seems odd given the lance rule, I can tell you from plenty of past experience is that lances are actually really bad at killing vehicles. Lances are still good for zapping T6 MCs and T4 multi-wound stuff (like broadsides), but as a solution to vehicles they are woefully underwhelming. I'd go with double star or scatter/star too.

[busbina]

With Dark Eldar you can roll up with your Venom Spam Warlock Deathstar!  3 grizzly venoms and The Baron. Throw the baron with 2 farseers on bikes, 5 warlocks on bikes, and a min bike squad, and wave good by to all your friends with that 2++ reroll + hit and run + crazy amounts of witchblades. Crap throw a ravager in there too for more rerolls and some anti-tank. Remember it is better to win at plastic army men than it is to have friends.

[fluger]

Starcannons vs Broadsides (in 5+ cover) get .37 wounds a shot.

Brightlances vs Broadsides (in 5+ cover) get .37 wounds a shot (that cause Instant Death)

So a war walker with dual starcannons should do 1.48 wounds and a war walker with dual bright lances should do 74 (with ID),  Essentially identical statlines.

 

Starcannons vs T6 monsters (in 5+ cover) get .22 wounds a shot

Brightlances vs T6 monsters (in 5+ cover) get .37 wounds a shot

 

So a war walker with dual starcannons should do .88 wounds and a war walker with dual bright lances should do 74,  Essentially identical statlines.

 

Starcannons vs AV12 get a glance .11 per shot

Brightlances vs AV12 get a glance or pen .333 per shot

 

Obviously the Brightlance gets better AV12 and up, but the Starcannon kills more bodies, especially TEq and MEq.  

 

To me, it's basically a wash, but I like the BLs on wave serpents and the Starcannons on War Walkers.   

[Aventine]

I actually don't know Dark Eldar well at all, and have been avoiding them because HQs tend to be an expensive tax to pay for allies unless you really want the HQ. What are the viable (for this sort of list and theme) Dark Eldar HQ?

 

I'd say for Dark Eldar HQs in this list, the Baron is the way to go. A little over 100 points, sports a 2++, and (most importantly) give you +1 on the roll to go first.

[JMGraham]

Starcannons vs Broadsides (in 5+ cover) get .37 wounds a shot.

Brightlances vs Broadsides (in 5+ cover) get .37 wounds a shot (that cause Instant Death)

 

So a war walker with dual starcannons should do 1.48 wounds and a war walker with dual bright lances should do 74 (with ID),  Essentially identical statlines.

 

Starcannons vs T6 monsters (in 5+ cover) get .22 wounds a shot

Brightlances vs T6 monsters (in 5+ cover) get .37 wounds a shot

 

So a war walker with dual starcannons should do .88 wounds and a war walker with dual bright lances should do 74,  Essentially identical statlines.

 

Starcannons vs AV12 get a glance .11 per shot

Brightlances vs AV12 get a glance or pen .333 per shot

 

Obviously the Brightlance gets better AV12 and up, but the Starcannon kills more bodies, especially TEq and MEq.  

 

To me, it's basically a wash, but I like the BLs on wave serpents and the Starcannons on War Walkers.

 

I think you just convinced me to take star cannons on wave serpents (where the other weapons serve an anti infantry and anti light vehicle role), and bright lances on a separate platform (like the war walkers). I've found that mixing weapons with different roles on the same unit ends up making it less effective.

 

Just played against a venom spam list tonight (with tau allies). It was pretty brutal, and would have eaten my Chaos alive, save for the fact that I was using my Necrons. Barely, just oh so barely eeked out a win. Really fun game, but it didn't leave me real excited about venoms.

 

We've got a local player who uses the Baron. Scary, scary fellow.

[fluger]

Fair enough.  I just like mixing and matching with the wave serpent at need.  

[Torg]

I'm curious how this list has been working out.  I am in the midst of building a list that will include the hornets as well as a wraith knight.  I am thinking about wraith guard - but I may go with massed bikes and guardians instead along with some flyer.

 

-d

[Lord Hanaur]

Yeah the point on exposing rear armor is very true.  I've done in more than one of those wave serpents, and then the flamers just stand there and do nothing while the guys holding them get dead.

 

Now on the plus side, if you're not jetting to an area that is highly populated or dangerous, and the enemy has no remaining outflankers to pop it with, then it may not be terrible.  But that kinda puts the upgrade in the realm of 50/50 usefulness, you know?

[JMGraham]

I'm curious how this list has been working out.  I am in the midst of building a list that will include the hornets as well as a wraith knight.  I am thinking about wraith guard - but I may go with massed bikes and guardians instead along with some flyer.

 

-d

 

Haven't played it but the once. Me building toward this list is a ways off. I've got my CSM/Daemon army to finish for the OFCC, then likely a Wood Elf army to update, then I can get on with the Eldar. This Eldar list is more than a bit powerful for my local meta, but if some of the more competitive tournaments start including things like dataslates and Knights, it'll be good to have an army that I can still use against those lists and have fun.

[Torg]

hmmm well good luck — I know how those side projects can suck up your time.  I have been thinking about a list that will be more competitive as my time is limited to game - so event gaming typically would make up over half my games each year.  I am hoping a saturation of larger and dangerous targets will really force my opponent into hard choices.  Wraithkight and hornets would be the start of that kinda idea.

 

-d

[JMGraham]

The Eldar can definitely excel at presenting multiple dangerous targets! I think the Hornets will get targeted first however, as they are made of tissue paper and can be taken down more easily than the Wraithknight.

[Torg]

The Eldar can definitely excel at presenting multiple dangerous targets! I think the Hornets will get targeted first however, as they are made of tissue paper and can be taken down more easily than the Wraithknight.

which…is my hope… allowing the WK to jump in and hurt the other things lol.  OR visa versa…  I may also plop in a warp hunter… or a wraith seer… or something else that looks dangerous

 

-d

[Lord Hanaur]

Umm...if you need something that looks dangerous, may I suggest Ork machinery?

 

But in all seriousness, I will say this:  the Wraithlord from Forge World that is an HQ is just silly awesome.  As tough as you could ever want and he does stuff!  I hates hi.  I hates him my preciousssssss.  Is that the guy you're talking about?