Tyranids are here!

[fluger]

I think that statement is true for the majority of the 6th edition dexes/builds.  

[Lord Hanaur]

Tau.  So awesome.  And their army isn't bad either.

 

I think you beat Tau by:

 

1.  Focusing a ton on their troops.  Though more damaging units exist and scare you, the reality is, scoring units are the primary target in most games and you can lose nearly everything and win as long as you have troops left.

 

2.  Reserves.  Cant shoot what they cant see.  Comms Relays can help you keep units off the board and force the issue to secondaries because you simply have more troops than they do at the days end.  Therefore:

 

3.  First Blood at all cost.  With enough speed, Linebreaker is easy.  Keep your warlord alive and you dont have to worry about his.  So whatever you do, dont give up first blood and pick out the easiest to kill unit and kill it round 1.

 

It's no guarantee that you CAN get (or avoid) First Blood.  But Tyranids DO have the advantage of massive body counts that threaten and force the enemy into shooting THEM, with low chance of first blood, compared to the things trying to kill, say, ONE Fire Warrior Squad the Tyranids are focusing on.

 

Other things:

4.  Tau LD sucks.  Pin the Markerlights.  Then pin Riptides if you still can.  Infiltrating Broodlords in cover = good.  Who says they need to charge right away?  They can be your support units for a bit.

5.  Broadsides do not like Exocrines.  Nor Mawlocs.  Just saying.

6.  Tyranid Artillery does not suck.  Crowded FOC there but I cant help but notice that the Tyranid artillery essentially never "misses".  Barrages against Tau are great.  Barrages allow you to get past the drone walls and other defenses. like the Mawloc does.  I'd use a Mawloc, personally but...

 

 

There's a few morsels of biomatter for thought.

[ChaosGerbil]

I'm seeing a trend with the codices and supplements. What used to be $25-$35 is now $50, and if you miss some of the stuff they deliberately took out you can add it back in for another $40 or so, three times in a row. This is why I don't own a single 6th edition book besides the main rules. Updating my armies would cost a couple hundred bucks without a single new model to show for it. If the books were better done I wouldn't mind so much.

[pretre]

I'm seeing a trend with the codices and supplements. What used to be $25-$35 is now $50, and if you miss some of the stuff they deliberately took out you can add it back in for another $40 or so, three times in a row. This is why I don't own a single 6th edition book besides the main rules. Updating my armies would cost a couple hundred bucks without a single new model to show for it. If the books were better done I wouldn't mind so much.

I don't think it is quite that simple. Yes, books are more expensive than the 25-35 range but everything is more expensive 10 years later. Also, the supplements / dataslates are not required or necessary for most armies.

So $50 for a book is basically what you need for your army. Considering how much play most of us get out of our armies? That's nothing.

[Aventine]

The greatest thing about the Mawloc against Tau is it gets to do its damage before worrying about Interceptor fire.

[nathonicus]

My biggest question with this dex, is how is or will it be able to handle Tau/Eldar/Taudar? I can see a first turn situation where you will be able to be on them turn two, but if they are going first, I don't necessarily see a good outcome in most games for Tyranids against those forces. Any thoughts and ideas?

 

Someone already demonstrated how to win against Taudar/Eltau: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/01/11/warhammer-40k-video-bat-rep-new-tyranids-vs-eldau/

 

Summary: Go first, take extra points, cheat and select the best psychic powers, and have your opponent deploy everything in one clump in the middle of the board with his tanks facing backwards.

[galahad911]

Someone already demonstrated how to win against Taudar/Eltau: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/01/11/warhammer-40k-video-bat-rep-new-tyranids-vs-eldau/

 

Summary: Go first, take extra points, cheat and select the best psychic powers, and have your opponent deploy everything in one clump in the middle of the board with his tanks facing backwards.

 

 

Or, and I know I'm going out on a limb here, make a list with the new codex and not just throw your old list out there and expect to do well? Reece is upset, and that's his right to be so. But that Tyranid list is just less than garbage, and would've lost just as horribly with the 5th ed book.

[Munkie]

I couldn't not picture Badger from Breaking Bad holding that camera. Seriously, the exact same voice...

[Guest]

Or, and I know I'm going out on a limb here, make a list with the new codex and not just throw your old list out there and expect to do well? Reece is upset, and that's his right to be so. But that Tyranid list is just less than garbage, and would've lost just as horribly with the 5th ed book.

Frontline seems to specialize in lopsided battles. Been watching a few now. They seem to like to stir up discent amoungst the 40k gamers.

-Pax

[fluger]

At the moment, Reece is pretty upset about balance shenanigans with 40k.  Overall, they are a great group of guys that are just trying to promote the hobby and their store.  

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

I don't think they try lopsidded matches as much as they like to play balanced lists against the cheese. I don't think their goal is discent.

 

The more I'm reading the book it seems now. Dakka flyrant is a good choice, but only need a devour set, not 2 set as you are aiming for a witchfire. About 33% chance of getting a decent witchfire to me is enough of an incentive to save 15 pts. I don't know how others feel?

 

I am digging the idea of 2 harpies and a flyrant for my fmc, dakka fexes for other antiair. Harpies seem like a good choice but just fragile. All three flying at you should by my ground troops the time to move in. Small min squads of genes hidden away ready to pounce on any advance of the enemy or to pop out late to take the objecive. Genes are good as scoring and that is how we should try to utlize them. I think they would be better if we could take smaller min squads.

[fluger]

Went a different way:

 

 

Deathleaper:  130

 

30 Termagants:  120

 

Tervigon:  195

 

8 Genestealers:  172

  Broodlord

 

8 Genestealers:  172

  Broodlord

 

5 Genestealers:  70

 

2 Lictors:  100

 

2 Lictors:  100

 

2 Lictors:  100

 

4 Shrikes:  140

  Rending Claws

 

4 Shrikes:  140

  Rending Claws

 

4 Shrikes:  140

  Rending Claws

 

Mawloc:  140

 

Mawloc:  140

 

Mawloc:  140

 

1999 pts

 

Tons of early pressure with all the stealers and lictors, and a nice deep strike inbound from the Mawlocs and Shrikes.  Also, there's a tervigon in the backfield with a ton of terms to control two objectives if need be.  The idea is put enough early pressure on my opponent that they won't clear the Tervigon or terms in time.  

 

Assuming this army can go first, being able to potentially pin two dangerous units could give them the resiliency they need to survive the turn one barrage of fire (obviously no guarantee).  If the board has enough LOS blocking terrian, I rate its chances as decent.  Without it, kiss it goodbye.  Still.  Could be a nice army.  

[Guest]

After 23 pages on this topic, I found me a copy of the rules. They are not as bad as I imagined, seeing the length of this thread, but I can see where there would be issues.

 

First, I think the learning curve on the new tyranid codex is much higher than prior incarnations.

 

Entire army seems built around the idea that you have a synapse creature bubbled with non-synapse, then more non-synapse advancing between the synapse bubble and the enemy. Knowing when to chance IB and when you want them in synapse range seems pretty key. To be fair, in fluff this would be the main body of the swarm and the tendrils.

 

As for synapse, you have three real choices, Singular synapse, mass synapse, and no synapse.

 

Singular synapse really means just having only 1 synapse model (or having a primary with spares). It functions as, sort of, a sheperd for 'nids that stray too close to the board edge when fleeing. This is likely a tyrant with a crown and the primaris power for a 24" synapse range, then a body guard. Rest of army is likely fearless or high leadership.

 

Mass synapse will probably be the most common, which means just lots of synapse to avoid taking IB tests. A player who fields this probably can't figure out how to use his IB tests to his advantage and considers them a weak point to the codex, though they might just have mass synapse for reasons aside from wanting synapse (like wanting zoans or a trygon prime in the mix). They may also understand IB tests and just consider it easier to play without them.

 

No synapse really means locking your units into their roles. It is very noteworthy that a unit gone to ground is not subject to synapse, so you should be able to avoid IB tests on non-fearless units if it's really important.

 

Shadows in the warp is pretty OP. Lots of elements in this army seem built around the idea of gimping Grey Knights....Lots of pretty solid combos with shadows working with some of their psychic powers (like psychic scream). Too bad the GK don't need the gimp right now.

 

Despite the complaining, tyranids did get lots of AT options that they did desperately need. To name a few, we have quite a few haywire weapons, heavy venom cannons are now straight S9, without additional penality, and the crushing claws were made useful again (remember that despite being unwieldly, MCs still strike in initiative order with unwieldly weapons).

 

Lots of old tyranid rules were made much more simple, though others remain really complicated.

 

As for winning with bugs, I think were going to find that there are lots of builds, as they have some pretty varied solutions to their problems. 

 

I do think that the new tyranid book lends itself to unflexible builds more than most armies. You really need to specialize the swarm into one or two approaches. I don't think general purpose tyranid lists will be very successful.

-Pax

[AscentStudios]

FWIW, I played with the closest approximation of my old list (Dropship Buggers), vs. my normal Necron opponent, using the normal level of terrain we play with, and have just gotten ROFLstomped. Lack of Catalyst plus the Terv nerfs (esp Synaptic Backlash and the inability to pass off Biomorphs) really, really hurts - he Telsa-Destructored the crap out of them and bang, there go most of my obligatory Gaunt squads. This is Turn 2, btw. I had to completely change my counter-assualt to make sure my Feeders (Ravs, Horms) weren't out of Synapse lest they stop fighting the bad guys and eat each other instead 

 

What's driving me nuts most of all is that I can't get past the feeling that IB is a massive Achilles' Heel which most armies can exploit almost at will, both in play and with the player. The way you protect delicate units in all other armies is cover and reserve - but with most Synapse being large it makes getting LOS all too easy, and IB actively screws you if you DON"T have your babysitters. I can't think of any other army whose armywide rules are an active disadvantage AND a way to nullify that disadvantage. 

 

The bigger issue for me was tracking IB - as I started to lose Synapse (because it's going to happen), I found myself staring at the board trying to figure out what my critters were likely to do in its absence, then double checking, moving synapse back in, remeasuring at the start of each turn and having to randomize what everything does. Feels a lot more like a geometry class than a game, and adds approximately ZERO to the gameplay experience of running Nids. It's just another housekeeping thing to do for the "benefit" of playing the army. That's pretty crappy.

[fluger]

I "liked" that mostly for your commentary, not for the sad state of affairs it represents.  

[Lord Hanaur]

FWIW, I played with the closest approximation of my old list (Dropship Buggers), vs. my normal Necron opponent, using the normal level of terrain we play with, and have just gotten ROFLstomped. Lack of Catalyst plus the Terv nerfs (esp Synaptic Backlash and the inability to pass off Biomorphs) really, really hurts - he Telsa-Destructored the crap out of them and bang, there go most of my obligatory Gaunt squads. This is Turn 2, btw. I had to completely change my counter-assualt to make sure my Feeders (Ravs, Horms) weren't out of Synapse lest they stop fighting the bad guys and eat each other instead 

 

What's driving me nuts most of all is that I can't get past the feeling that IB is a massive Achilles' Heel which most armies can exploit almost at will, both in play and with the player. The way you protect delicate units in all other armies is cover and reserve - but with most Synapse being large it makes getting LOS all too easy, and IB actively screws you if you DON"T have your babysitters. I can't think of any other army whose armywide rules are an active disadvantage AND a way to nullify that disadvantage. 

 

The bigger issue for me was tracking IB - as I started to lose Synapse (because it's going to happen), I found myself staring at the board trying to figure out what my critters were likely to do in its absence, then double checking, moving synapse back in, remeasuring at the start of each turn and having to randomize what everything does. Feels a lot more like a geometry class than a game, and adds approximately ZERO to the gameplay experience of running Nids. It's just another housekeeping thing to do for the "benefit" of playing the army. That's pretty crappy.

 

So you WILL have to change your list some then.  That happens almost every time a codex drops to some extent though.

[Psilence]

Fluger, you can't just change your avatar willy nilly like that. I read a post and my eyes muscle memory was like 'who the eff is trying to impersonate fluger?' :p

 

I had to 'slowly' read your name to realize/prove it was you ;)

 

As for the nids, I think people are frustrated because the books power level (already mid to low from last incarnation) remained the same/slipped backward a step, compaired to eldar/tau/marines who had significant structural table top tweaks.

 

I'm not saying they can't win, just that their play style (the bat reps/lists I've seen/written) has gone from aggressive to denial.

 

Sorta reminds me of late 4th ed pure GK. Really fun if you accept what you are playing, super frustrating if you don't love your toy soldiers :p

[fluger]

Fluger, you can't just change your avatar willy nilly like that. I read a post and my eyes muscle memory was like 'who the eff is trying to impersonate fluger?' :p

 

I had to 'slowly' read your name to realize/prove it was you ;)

LOL, I haven't changed it in years.  Much like my army lists.  

[intrizic]

What's driving me nuts most of all is that I can't get past the feeling that IB is a massive Achilles' Heel which most armies can exploit almost at will, both in play and with the player. The way you protect delicate units in all other armies is cover and reserve - but with most Synapse being large it makes getting LOS all too easy, and IB actively screws you if you DON"T have your babysitters. I can't think of any other army whose armywide rules are an active disadvantage AND a way to nullify that disadvantage. 

 

The bigger issue for me was tracking IB - as I started to lose Synapse (because it's going to happen), I found myself staring at the board trying to figure out what my critters were likely to do in its absence, then double checking, moving synapse back in, remeasuring at the start of each turn and having to randomize what everything does. Feels a lot more like a geometry class than a game, and adds approximately ZERO to the gameplay experience of running Nids. It's just another housekeeping thing to do for the "benefit" of playing the army. That's pretty crappy.

This.

For me it comes down to core army mechanics.  I haven't kept up to date on the 'humble proposal' thread, fyi.  But let's look at army core mechanics in 6th, please jump in and correct me where I am wrong.  CSM, supposed to work the challenge mechanic, you can see what GW was trying to accomplish here, and when it works it's pretty brutal, but it's clunky and difficult.  DA core mechanic, stubborn and fearless on key units, with elite armies, both are considered middle/low tier I believe.  Chaos Demons: core mechanic, gifts and Warp storm table, gifts are random and the warp storm table is a bit cray cray, mid to top teir?  Who was next...Tau?  Markerlights and supportive fire, both extremely good core mechanics, easy to leverage with no/little negative sides, top tier dex.  Eldar: core mechanic, shoot and run or run and shoot, and negatives versus Slaanesh, who says fluff doesn't determine rules?  Fluffy negative affect, but really doesn't come into play, fairly strong core mechanic, top tier codex.  Space marines: core mechanic, combat squads and ATSKNF, both strong core mechanics ATSKNF is arguably one of the best USRs in the game, above mid tier codex.  Tyranids codex: core mechanic: instinctive behavior, fearless within synapse range, most builds do not function outside of synapse range, not a strong core mechanic, actually punishing.  Just some perspective 

[AscentStudios]

So you WILL have to change your list some then.  That happens almost every time a codex drops to some extent though.

 

Gee-whilikers, really? Methinks you were responding to my first paragraph, which was stated as a *test* of the codex, and not the contents of what I actually had to say about the Tyranid army's performance...so let me clarify. 

 

OF COURSE I expected my army list to change, because duh - new codex. However, my list changed more than most as it lost the Spores and thus much of its ability to do what it did. I ran a test of that old list in order to see just how badly that concept was compromised. Let's just grit our teeth, say I got burned, and call that water under the bridge. 

 

The real point here is that  no matter how much I change this list or make another, nothing will change the my observations about the play ecosystem of Synapse and Instinctive Behavior, nor the robotic effect it has both on the army AND how you play that army. I will say this for the design team - it's apparent to me they were miffed that IB: Feed went from being a disadvantage in 5th to an occasional advantage in 6th (thanks to the Rage USR losing the "must charge closest" caveat), and so they went to a lot of trouble to make absolutely sure you never want to ignore Synapse. Mission accomplished fellas! 

[AscentStudios]

As for the nids, I think people are frustrated because the books power level (already mid to low from last incarnation) remained the same/slipped backward a step, compaired to eldar/tau/marines who had significant structural table top tweaks.

 

I'm not saying they can't win, just that their play style (the bat reps/lists I've seen/written) has gone from aggressive to denial.

 

Sorta reminds me of late 4th ed pure GK. Really fun if you accept what you are playing, super frustrating if you don't love your toy soldiers :p

 

Though I'm a casual player, I still like to compete (for sh*t-talking purposes - that's how my group rolls), so the "power level" may be some of it. But honestly, I started bugs in 5th ed, when everyone else was dumping them in nerdrage over the loss of the 4th ed codex, and it never bothered me. They've been my go-to army in 75% of my games since the dex came out, and that's over IG... 

 

In the end, I think the play style is just not a play style - it's management of your weaknesses. It's less like play and more like work. Your strategy is not, "let's try this cool thing to outfox my opponent," but rather "let's try to hold the army together long enough I can do some damage." Even in the previous edition, losing Synapse was obnoxious, but that web was (and should be) part of the overall thinking. Fortunately, there were things that made the trouble worthwhile.

 

However, the new edition and the new dex combined have really left this army in the dust - Bugs don't get access to 2 of the edition's biggest advancements (new psychic powers, allies) nor do they get anything to give them an edge in, or even mitigate the changes to, assaults from 5th to 6th ed (such as assaulting out of reserves, moving into assault faster, avoiding overwatch, etc.). In the end, this book *could* have existed in 5th edition and played just fine...which means it completely missed the boat on what a new edition's book should be. 

 

TL; DR - my point is, when I play, i want to play. I want to spend the game thinking about maneuvers and odds and looking ahead, not fretting about how to keep my army's single advantage (widespread Fearless via Synapse) in play and/or whether my troops will stop functioning and/or *literally start killing each other* when it's gone. Spending your whole game having to react rather than getting into a proactive position is just not fun.

[Lord Hanaur]

Well since I never have PLAYED bugs but twice (won both of those games using hodge podge forces) yet have played against them a LOT, I see this differently.  

 

When I look at the Instinctive Behavior (IB) chart I see pretty much all positives except Feed and even Feed has good results.  The chart doesn't even come up until you fail morale which you may never do.  Live in fear of what may rarely happen?  Not this guy!  I'll Deep Strike 4 inches from you because its WHY THAT UNIT IS HERE!

 

I am on a lot of forums.  And on those forums I hear VERY little talk about how to USE this codex.  All I hear is how bad it LOOKS (with, by the way, maybe three games to back it up if that before they spouted, if that).  I hear that ONE Instinctive Behavior table CAN bone you.  CAN.  But as for useful tactica?  Forget about it.

 

I think if you keep tinkering with it, you're going to find that what I said earlier is true:  Lists will change and results will improve.  I don't think they will be "top tier", but then, most agree an arms race isn't a good idea anyways.  I think this codex falls in the "Good Generals are going to mop up like they always do, but look awesome doing it" category of middle tier.  

 

And looking awesome doesn't suck.

[fluger]

A positive post about the dex:  http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/01/20/guest-editorial-by-kevin-tyranids-are-good/

[Lord Hanaur]

Here's another

 

Nids no sucky

[AscentStudios]

My fav thing about so many of these posts are the, "I don't play Nids, but I think the dex is good." Even the posted links. Perhaps give the folks with some skin the game a bit more credence at least.