A hidden change to Oblits

[peter.cosgrove]

So, here is a quote from your's truly regarding Obliterators.

"Obliterators. I put these on the table ONCE. They are crap. Compared to EVERYTHING else deep strikable they are absolute garbage. And to put them on the board with their pitiful 24" inch range they become a laughable pile of fluffy clowns compared to ANYTHING that can take plasma guns."

So, here is the hidden change. In the Index Choas: Heretic Astartes. Obliterators get fleshmetal guns. Assault 2

However... in the Codex Heretic Astartes, Obliterators get Fleshmetal Guns Assault 4

Assault 4.. 

THIS.. IS HUGE.. 

A unit of 3 oblits deep striking will now get 12 guaranteed shots of S7, AP -1, 1 damage. Averaging S8, Ap -2, 2 damage at 24" range. This, with NO Get's Hot!

So, it is now time to compare them to the Plasma gun and do some points costs.

3 oblits, 65 points each, for 3 is 195 points. 12 Plasma gun equivalent shots at 24 inch range, deep strikeable.

The most obvious is of course Choas Terminators. To get 12 shots you would need 12 Terminators with combi plasma. 10 Choas Terminators is 310 points plus 2 reaper auto cannons (Heavy 4, S7, AP-1,1 Damage) with combi plasma and power axe/sword would make it around 510 points for 20 wounds. 

This will give you 8 plasma shots and 8 reaper auto cannon shots at -1 to hit.

Oblits will get 8 hits and 5 wounds at AP-1 against T4. Terminators will get you 5 and 4 hits, and 6 wounds at AP-1/3 against T4. 

HOWEVER.. that is around 85 points per wound for the terminators and only 39 points per wound for the Obliterators.

Obliterators have 2+/5+, 3W and 3A at S5. 195 points gets 9 wounds and 9 S5 attacks. Terminator equi would be 5 termies for 10 wounds, 2+/5+ and 11 S5 attacks for 255 points. Obliterators are 21 points per wound/attack. Termies are 25 points per wound and 23 points per attack.

Obliterators now beat termies EASILY for first strike/deep strike attack by fire.

So, over to Raptors. 3 plasma guns per unit of 5, 4 units to make 12 plasma gun shots at 24" range. 5 raptors is 17 for 85 points plus 2 plasma for 13/26 and a combi plasma at 15 is 126 points for 1 unit. 4 units is 504 points. Thats 8 hits and 5 wounds at AP-3, so around 100 points per wound compared to the Obliterator 39 points per AP-1/2/3 wounds.

Raptors at 3+, 1W and 1A for the plasma gunners/2A for the BP/Chainsword would make 9 attacks per unit. Raptors are 25 points per wound/14 points per attack, however, that attack is S4. Obliterator unit will get 6 hits and 4 wounds on T4 for 195 points, Raptors will get 6 hits, but only 3 wounds on T4. So Raptors are 42 points per T4 wound and Obliterators are 48 points per T4 wound.

Obliterators are half again cheaper per wound, around the same cost for attacks/CC wounds as Raptors. And the 2+/5+ makes up for that. So Obliterators beat Raptors for the first strike/deep strike attack by fire.

So, next up, Scarab Occult Terminators. Full unit 10 SOT's with 2 Soul Cannon/Helfyre Missile Racks/Inferno Combi Bolter. 1 Damage from Smite, 4 shots HMR/8 shots SC/16 shots ICB. 2 Hits HMR/5 hits SC/10 ICB. 2 wounds HMR/3 wounds SCR/5 wounds ICB all at AP-2/3. 11 wounds total for 457 points. That's 41 points per wound compared to the 39 for the Obliterators.

So. Obliterators now beat both Terminators and Raptors and are Even with Scarab Occult Terminators.

Your only other option is to take Alpha Legion and infiltrate a 6 model squad of Chosen in with 6 plasma guns. And that would be 96 points plus 5x Plasma guns/1x combi plasma for 65/15 is 80 would be 176 points total. And that would still only get you 6 shots at 24" for 4 hits/3 wounds, so 58 points per wound. And the Obliterators beat that hands down. 

I now want to put my unit of Obliterators on the ground once again and see if I am right.

[Guest]

18 hours ago, peter.cosgrove said:

So, here is a quote from your's truly regarding Obliterators.

"Obliterators. I put these on the table ONCE. They are crap. Compared to EVERYTHING else deep strikable they are absolute garbage. And to put them on the board with their pitiful 24" inch range they become a laughable pile of fluffy clowns compared to ANYTHING that can take plasma guns."

So, here is the hidden change. In the Index Choas: Heretic Astartes. Obliterators get fleshmetal guns. Assault 2

However... in the Codex Heretic Astartes, Obliterators get Fleshmetal Guns Assault 4

Assault 4.. 

THIS.. IS HUGE.. 

A unit of 3 oblits deep striking will now get 12 guaranteed shots of S7, AP -1, 1 damage. Averaging S8, Ap -2, 2 damage at 24" range. This, with NO Get's Hot!

Yup, so many awesome changes between the Index and the CSM book. Mutilators also went down by 15pts per model, making the unit 45pts cheaper. The Daemon Prince's Axe and Sword options dropped by 35pts or 32pts respectively.

Anyway, for comparison, Raptors have the advantage of being able to take a mixed bag of melee, ranged, and icons. CSM terminators can also do this. Obliterators, Warp Talons and Mutilators have no opptions aside from Mark and Legion.

I will note that the downside for Oblits is that they lack melee options and have a fixed unit size of 3 models. So you drop them down and you expect anything that doesn't die, will assault them and tie them up (not difficult to make a 3-man infantry team unable to leave combat).

Regarding Get's Hot, note that Black Legion has a stratagem that makes infantry re-roll 1s to hit. Nurgle also has a Stratagem that allows units to revive lost models. And of course, you could Deep Strike a Chaos Lord in TDA or with a jump pack for re-rolls of 1s to hit.

Oh, one more point, and this often overlooked, is that CSM Lords and unit Champions can actually take two Plasma Pistols (which can both be fired in the same shooting phase). So if the goal is only rapid fire range, a Raptor Champion can include dual plasma pistols. Dual Plasma pistols is 1pt cheaper than a combi-plasma, but 1pt more expensive than a plasma gun. You do lose the bolter shots, though.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, peter.cosgrove said:

3 oblits, 65 points each, for 3 is 195 points. 12 Plasma gun equivalent shots at 24 inch range, deep strikeable.

Oh, added note. it's not that they are "Deep Strikeable," they MUST deep strike. With only a 4" move, them and mutilators are the slowest units in the codex. I'd be hard pressed to justify the unit if they weren't deep striking. Very slow with only 24" of range. They are at least assault weapons, but that's as good as it gets. 

[CaptainA]

For obliterators here is what you do.

1. Give them the Mark of Slaanesh. This unlocks the the shoot twice stratagem for 2cp. So worth it.

2. Use the Veterans of the Long War stratagem for 1cp. Gives your oblits +1 to wound. You will be wounding Magnus, Mortarian, and Knights potentially on a 2+.

3. If you are going to use a cp to reroll, do it on the damage.

4. Have a sorcerer close by to give them Prescience. +1 to hit. 2+ to hit, want even more, put a lawd next to them to reroll 1's.

You will be able to kill magnus, mortarian, or a knight in one turn.

You're welcome.

[WestRider]

How is this a "hidden" change to Oblits? This was all over the place when the Dex dropped.

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, CaptainA said:

For obliterators here is what you do.

1. Give them the Mark of Slaanesh. This unlocks the the shoot twice stratagem for 2cp. So worth it.

2. Use the Veterans of the Long War stratagem for 1cp. Gives your oblits +1 to wound. You will be wounding Magnus, Mortarian, and Knights potentially on a 2+.

3. If you are going to use a cp to reroll, do it on the damage.

4. Have a sorcerer close by to give them Prescience. +1 to hit. 2+ to hit, want even more, put a lawd next to them to reroll 1's.

You will be able to kill magnus, mortarian, or a knight in one turn.

You're welcome.

Okay, so jump pack sorcerer, (126pts min), 3 oblits (195pts), 4 CP, and a JP lord (93pts min). 314pts? Risky, but not bad for destroying a knight. I hate the loss of CP, but that's probably a good use of them. 

[InfestedKerrigan]

And then the other three knights rain hellfire and brimstone. 

[CaptainA]

6 minutes ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

And then the other three knights rain hellfire and brimstone. 

Naw, one knight is punked by the oblits, the other knight is punked by Magnus and the other smites. Park the oblits in terrain for a 1+save.

 

And your also -1 to hit as they are alpha legion.

[InfestedKerrigan]

5 minutes ago, CaptainA said:

Naw, one knight is punked by the oblits, the other knight is punked by Magnus and the other smites. Park the oblits in terrain for a 1+save.

 

And your also -1 to hit as they are alpha legion.

Yeah, but my grammar Nazi ability grants me a +3 to all dice rolls during our game. 

[CaptainA]

Just now, InfestedKerrigan said:

Yeah, but my grammar Nazi ability grants me a +3 to all dice rolls during our game. 

But did you expect the Spanish Inquisition? Wound on 6's

[InfestedKerrigan]

2 minutes ago, CaptainA said:

But did you expect the Spanish Inquisition? Wound on 6's

I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper!

[CaptainA]

Just now, InfestedKerrigan said:

I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper!

Spam Spam Spam Spam Spam Spam Spam Spam...here's to spam, wonderful spam!

[InfestedKerrigan]

Just now, CaptainA said:

Spam Spam Spam Spam Spam Spam Spam Spam...here's to spam, wonderful spam!

I fart in your general direction!

[Guest]

<Succeeds at will save to avoid the complusion to make the "no one expects the spanish inquisition!" remark which always follows any mention of them on these forums.>

[InfestedKerrigan]

Successfully Taunted thanks to my outrageous accent, can force you to reroll one die per phase.  ^_^

[Dusldorf]

2 hours ago, WestRider said:

How is this a "hidden" change to Oblits? This was all over the place when the Dex dropped.

Yeah seriously. The actual hidden news is that OP has been living in a box. 

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Dusldorf said:

Yeah seriously. The actual hidden news is that OP has been living in a box. 

Not constantly roaming the online forums to tidbits about 40k isn't exactly living in a box. 

Though I suppose I probably do live in a box, it's called an apartment, but calling it a box wouldn't be wrong. 

[Dusldorf]

56 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Not constantly roaming the online forums to tidbits about 40k isn't exactly living in a box. 

Though I suppose I probably do live in a box, it's called an apartment, but calling it a box wouldn't be wrong. 

Constantly roaming forums is one way to find out. Reading the dex is another lol 

[peter.cosgrove]

3 hours ago, Dusldorf said:

Yeah seriously. The actual hidden news is that OP has been living in a box. 

Basement actually. Same thing

[peter.cosgrove]

And to be honest. I was going back through the codex to find the point to wound comparison for non-DG Helbrutes vs Predators and randomly going down the line of weapons when the assault 4 froze at my reading point. I thought. "That's odd, that must be a typo or something". Been kind of focused on the storm eagle vs rhino and dropping a land raider off my list for something with 4 lascannons and or 2-3 somethings with 8-9 lascannons/missile launchers.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Dusldorf said:

Constantly roaming forums is one way to find out. Reading the dex is another lol 

Yeah, but only if you were reading the codex and never read the Index. Coming from the index, the change is more subtle, since oblits are otherwise identical in both books, points and stats, with the only difference being a 2 instead of a 4. It's easy to overlook. Several reads of the codex before I noticed the change. Even the weapons have the same name and cost.

Anyway, I don't mean to make a big deal of it. I just felt you may be being too hard on Peter, so I mentioned it. 

I feel I've read both the codex and the index at least 20 times each, and I'm still noticing new things (or having them pointed out to me). A lot of it has to with assumptions based on prior editions. This edition really is a new game, while past editions were more substanical updates to the existing game.  

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said:

Been kind of focused on the storm eagle vs rhino and dropping a land raider off my list for something with 4 lascannons and or 2-3 somethings with 8-9 lascannons/missile launchers.

Lascannon obsession? Have you looked into running any buildings? That Chaos Bastion, for example, has the option to allow transported units to fire out of it. It's otherwise a T10 vehicle with 20 wounds. And the cool thing in this edition is that the Bastion is no longer scewed by having a heavy bolter on each facing, instead, all weapons fire at the same target regardless of facing. Other buildings could work too. 

So fill it with havocs or whatever, and lob 10 lascannons shots out each turn. 

 

[SPaceORK]

Pretty sure there was a list that top 5ed the BAO with three units of alpha legion tzeetch oblits (deepstrike middle of table, -2 to hit at 12+" due to trait and changing) and two units of slaneesh to get that sweet double tap.

[Lord Hanaur]

So once again we see in this diagram that the Codex is INDEED determined to be, once again, better than the Index in every way.  In other news, water is wet.  Lol.

But seriously though, this really is a boost for the poor Obliterators for sure.