Points update are live, take it with a grain of salt

[Lyraeus]

Yup. Just like everyone else. So you will need to adjust your tactics and pick when best to deploy it or how to use it.

 

With the changes to how missions are done and points are scored you will be less focused on killing and more on completing those secondaries and holding objectives so them shooting at the void raven means less shots taking you off an objective. 

[Ish]

Just now, Munkie said:

It isn't a wash. The only real defense of Eldar flyers was making them hard to hit. That can no longer be done.

Can’t hit ‘em if they’re out of range. Definitely can’t him ‘em if they’re off the table.

Aircraft excel at getting out of range and Eldar aircraft are better at it than most. Keep them in Strategic Reserves until your ground elements can neutralize the enemy’s long range anti-vehicle shooters, then dance around the range bands of the remainder.

[Munkie]

Just now, Ish said:

Can’t hit ‘em if they’re out of range. Definitely can’t him ‘em if they’re off the table.

Aircraft excel at getting out of range and Eldar aircraft are better at it than most. Keep them in Strategic Reserves until your ground elements can neutralize the enemy’s long range anti-vehicle shooters, then dance around the range bands of the remainder.

The voidraven has 24" range guns.

 

1 minute ago, Lyraeus said:

Yup. Just like everyone else. So you will need to adjust your tactics and pick when best to deploy it or how to use it.

No, I'll just have to not take it because it is an objectively awful choice compared to other choices.

It is not a revelation that if you make bad lists but play them to the best of your ability, you can still wring value out of them. That isn't an endorsement for taking bad choices which is what the voidraven is.

Is there a good reason it costs 55 points more than a razorwing? No. So why should I take the over-costed one?

[Ish]

7 minutes ago, Munkie said:

The voidraven has 24" range guns.

 

It has the Dark Scythe (24”) or Void Lance (36”),  plus the Voidraven Missiles (48”), and the special Void Mine which is can drop at any point along its 60” movement path once per game.

 

[Munkie]

Just now, Ish said:

It has the Dark Scythe (24”) or Void Lance (36”),  plus the Voidraven Missiles (48”), and the special Void Mine which is can drop at any point along its 60” movement path once per game.

Yes, I'm well aware of the guns on my flyer.

Staying out of 24" and just throwing D6 str 7 missiles is not a good use for 225 points. I have to stay in range with all guns to get value out of it.

You can tout the benefits of a unit you have no experience with all you want, but there's really no justification for one of the highest percentage hikes in the game. A nearly 40% increase is HUGE on an already expensive flyer that got fewer benefits from the edition change than most.

[Lyraeus]

29 minutes ago, Munkie said:

The voidraven has 24" range guns.

 

No, I'll just have to not take it because it is an objectively awful choice compared to other choices.

It is not a revelation that if you make bad lists but play them to the best of your ability, you can still wring value out of them. That isn't an endorsement for taking bad choices which is what the voidraven is.

Is there a good reason it costs 55 points more than a razorwing? No. So why should I take the over-costed one?

That is your choice. I take units that are sub par all the time. Hell people didnt think Deathskulls were any good when the ork codex first dropped, I was part of the crew that helped change that before Saga of the Beast dropped and made them better.

 

Play the list you want to play but dont count anything out because its not the same. Nothing is and the games themselves will reflect that. 

If you are in the portland area we can have a few games and see what can be done

[Ish]

You’ll never be able to stay out of range of everything in the enemy army... I never meant to imply you could. But you can stay out of range of some of his units, the key is to prioritize and minimize your risk.

Yes, the price hike for the Voidraven seems high,  but I’m not seeing it as useless. That voidmine dropped on a backfield infantry objective holders is still going to do some serious work and those missiles are still gonna chew up backfield artillery units.

 

[Munkie]

43 minutes ago, Ish said:

You’ll never be able to stay out of range of everything in the enemy army... I never meant to imply you could. But you can stay out of range of some of his units, the key is to prioritize and minimize your risk.

Yes, the price hike for the Voidraven seems high,  but I’m not seeing it as useless. That voidmine dropped on a backfield infantry objective holders is still going to do some serious work and those missiles are still gonna chew up backfield artillery units.

It is harder now to stay out of range though. Since there is no reason not to move and fire heavy weapons or move and advance assault weapons when shooting at it, getting units into range is very easy. 

While this is true of all flyers (and bad game design, IMO), the tradeoff is that many flyers also have heavy weapons so they can shoot much better now. That's a huge benefit, and not even those flyers went up by 40%.

Everything about bomb drops and range management was true of the voidraven last edition too. That's what I've always had to do with it to get it to last more than a turn. 

It's more fragile than most other flyers, benefitted less than other flyers from the edition change, suffered more from the edition nerfs than other flyers, and increased in price more than most other flyers.

That's a 4 hit combo of punishment.

There isn't a single reason to take it that wasn't there before. Just lots more reasons not to.

 

 

[Lyraeus]

6 minutes ago, Munkie said:

It is harder now to stay out of range though. Since there is no reason not to move and fire heavy weapons or move and advance assault weapons when shooting at it, getting units into range is very easy. 

While this is true of all flyers (and bad game design, IMO), the tradeoff is that many flyers also have heavy weapons so they can shoot much better now. That's a huge benefit, and not even those flyers went up by 40%.

Everything about bomb drops and range management was true of the voidraven last edition too. That's what I've always had to do with it to get it to last more than a turn. 

It's more fragile than most other flyers, benefitted less than other flyers from the edition change, suffered more from the edition nerfs than other flyers, and increased in price more than most other flyers.

That's a 4 hit combo of punishment.

There isn't a single reason to take it that wasn't there before. Just lots more reasons not to.

 

 

More fragile than most flyers? Nani!? Have you SEEN my ork Flyers!

 

I would LOVE  an invul built into my jets... hell I have to pay 20 points for that and only get it on one of my units.

[Lyraeus]

look we can fight about this all day long but its a difference in perspective.

 

For me, i have accepted it and look for ways to still play with the things I like. 

 

For you, its the objective use mathematically that seems to matter. 

 

Neither is right or wrong here

[Ish]

This is the Internet. The important thing isn’t to be right, it’s to make sure the other person is wrong! 

[Munkie]

1 hour ago, Ish said:

This is the Internet. The important thing isn’t to be right, it’s to make sure the other person is wrong! 

Just found a 2nd Drukhari points leak. One which doesn't have the Voidraven paying for its guns--resulting in only a 20 point instead of 60 point increase.

So, there is at least one person who is (quite possibly for the very first time) wrong on the internet.

 

Dun dun dunnnnn....

[Lyraeus]

1 hour ago, Munkie said:

Just found a 2nd Drukhari points leak. One which doesn't have the Voidraven paying for its guns--resulting in only a 20 point instead of 60 point increase.

So, there is at least one person who is (quite possibly for the very first time) wrong on the internet.

 

Dun dun dunnnnn....

Sure. Did you take a look at the wargear cost in the army and subtract that from the total? I recommend watching the video that I posted on page 1

[WestRider]

4 hours ago, Lyraeus said:

More fragile than most flyers? Nani!? Have you SEEN my ork Flyers!

most =/= all

[Lyraeus]

12 minutes ago, WestRider said:

most =/= all

I would say most flyers have that statline so its more likely its the average

[Burk]

Mod Note:

All, I had to hide most content in this thread.  We cannot post IP protected information, and rules and/or full point value dumps are covered under that.  Individual rules or points in context of a discussion are generally acceptable, but full dumps are not.  Please understand we are not trying to be difficult, and only protecting the forum as a whole for the community.

This is covered under the COC's rule 4:

Rule 4: Be Legal
Do not post anything unlawful, libelous, defamatory, or that infringes upon any
intellectual property rights. Do not conduct any activity that may be illegal, or harmful in
any way, to people, to software or hardware, such as hacking, flooding scripts viruses or
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Thank you for understanding.

Burk

[MexicanNinja]

8 hours ago, Munkie said:

It isn't a wash. The only real defense of Eldar flyers was making them hard to hit. That can no longer be done.

The no stacking negatives to hit is disproportionately more brutal to armies that relied on it.

Eldar flyers were under costed and broke AF in 8th.

Did Eldar flyers retain their pivot rules?  If so, that's still a bonus.  I have yet to read the rules for matched play; however, can units enter strategic reserves past turn 3?

[Ish]

1 minute ago, MexicanNinja said:

Did Eldar flyers retain their pivot rules?  If so, that's still a bonus.  I have yet to read the rules for matched play; however, can units enter strategic reserves past turn 3?

Yes, until their datasheets get rewritten, by new codices or errata, they’ll still have their special pivot rule.

Aircraft and only Aircraft, not any unit with Fly, can enter Strategic Reserves any time their movement takes them off the table. In a later turn the game, the Aircraft can be redeployed anywhere on the table (9″ away from the enemy). 
 

[MexicanNinja]

Just now, Ish said:

Yes, until their datasheets get rewritten, by new codices or errata, they’ll still have their special pivot rule.

Aircraft and only Aircraft, not any unit with Fly, can enter Strategic Reserves any time their movement takes them off the table. In a later turn the game, the Aircraft can be redeployed anywhere on the table (9″ away from the enemy). 
 

@Ish tracking that rule.  Due to 40k 9th following the 5 turn rule, and looking very similar to AoS in many areas, I'm curious if you can put units in any type of reserves in turns 3-4 and have them come on the table turns 4-5.

In AoS matched play, any units in your army which are not on the table at the start of your 4th turn count as destroyed.

If that's going to apply to 40k 9th ed then that pivot rule is still great.

That's what I'm curious about.  There's many differences from open play, narrative play, and matched play.  With matched play having many modifications to core rules.

[Ish]

Well, they have specific rules addressing how to set up units that come in from Strategic Reserve on “Battle Round 3+.” So I’m gonna assume that it’s possible... Otherwise, why have it say “3+”?

[MexicanNinja]

10 minutes ago, Ish said:

Well, they have specific rules addressing how to set up units that come in from Strategic Reserve on “Battle Round 3+.” So I’m gonna assume that it’s possible... Otherwise, why have it say “3+”?

Cool cool, thanks.

[Ish]

Obviously, I’ve only got the basic rules PDF and the various summary articles to go by... So 🧂 

[Munkie]

Dark Eldar flyers never had a fancy pivot rule.

Craftworld flyers got better for sure. The one thing holding back Crimson Hunter Exarchs was the fact that they have heavy weapons. If the leaks are true, they only went up by 20 points, but are going to be hitting on 2+ re-rollable and ignoring cover with their 4 str 8 shots.

They'll be obliterating vehicles and monsters with ridiculous ease.

[Lyraeus]

And dying with as much ease

 

[MexicanNinja]

7 hours ago, Munkie said:

Dark Eldar flyers never had a fancy pivot rule.

Craftworld flyers got better for sure. The one thing holding back Crimson Hunter Exarchs was the fact that they have heavy weapons. If the leaks are true, they only went up by 20 points, but are going to be hitting on 2+ re-rollable and ignoring cover with their 4 str 8 shots.

They'll be obliterating vehicles and monsters with ridiculous ease.

Gotcha, I just remember dark eldar aircraft obliterating my storm ravens every time i played against them.

Ignoring the entire rules for all types of cover?

As for the points increase.  Every vehicle essentially got "power of the machine spirit".  Yes, i know that rule is gone but that's basically the upgrade every vehicle has.