Character Discussion

[MexicanNinja]

For those of you who don't know who MrMalorian is on youtube, here's a very good discussion he did about the new change of the 50/50 for lords and heroes in the lastest FAQ.

 

http://youtu.be/V1heLgPbIoA?list=UU-FKledL3ys1n_A27J5Xefw

 

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Very good and interesting video that points out some good things. One is the community discussing which direction we will want to take this? Will we go the direction of herohammer and build lists to make Herostars pay or will we choose to my not go that way and work on a different way to build lists.

 

I did love his idea of countering the herostars and double Daemon Princes. So I will sit my Empire on the sideline for now but I believe I have a better feel of what is going to happen now.

 

The point I like the most is that if the people who take these Herostars or double DPs come to hate the Wood Elf avoidance lists or cannon lines they are the ones who forced the meta to take them.

[MexicanNinja]

Here's another perspective from Anthony form the Sustainable Center.

 

http://youtu.be/3Gfe9CFskmw?list=UUYabSJ6P_a21lxfZ1RlAW4A

[MexicanNinja]

Very good and interesting video that points out some good things. One is the community discussing which direction we will want to take this? Will we go the direction of herohammer and build lists to make Herostars pay or will we choose to my not go that way and work on a different way to build lists.

 

I did love his idea of countering the herostars and double Daemon Princes. So I will sit my Empire on the sideline for now but I believe I have a better feel of what is going to happen now.

 

The point I like the most is that if the people who take these Herostars or double DPs come to hate the Wood Elf avoidance lists or cannon lines they are the ones who forced the meta to take them.

I'm glad you liked it.  Think about the following with your Empire army:

 

1) You could spam a light council with the normal limit and that is still a great solo character/monster killer.  It's even better if you have more targets to take advantage from the council's strength.

 

2) I haven't read The Empire book in a long time so I don't know the answer to this question.  Can you take more than a single runefang in an army?  If you can, you can mount 3 lords on a horse, 1+ armour saves, and go kill a ton of crap with 12 attacks where the hits autowound and there's no armour save allowed. 

 

3) You still have the war machines to make armies cringe at the thought of getting in range.  Instead of taking a single helblaster, take two and you can now dish out more damage (again with the 50% allowance you can get an engineer to accompany both of them).

 

The Empire is in a terrific spot for this right now.  Here's why:

 

1) Who cares about demigryph's when you know you can take other tools to deal with the big stuff.  You can have the light council, engineers with helblasters, double steam tanks (yeah, toss two of those at a player spamming characters and you can pretty much lock that death star down all game long), 1+ armour lords running around with a unit of 5 knights (heck line them up in a "lance" formation and watch how your opponent struggles to kill the three lords with units who can't deal with armour).

 

2) You will have more troops on the ground and don't need that unit of 50 halbediers led by a warrior priest and bsb going forward because the shooting and magic should bring the numbers of the enemy units down to a manageable size.

 

3) I just don't see the need to take certain things in an Empire list any longer.  Mainly, I don't see the need for demigryphs in a list going against a list with character spamming because of the above mentioned things.

 

4) In the end, The Empire is one of the armies, IMO, who can have a significant advantage over the hero spamming armies.

[JMGraham]

If this pans out the way I hope it does, my Witch Hunter Empire army may see the table again. It won't be very good, but 1200 points of actual Witch Hunters? Thank you fluff hammer, thank you very much.

 

My one regret is that my DoW light cav don't yet have a place again. And duelists with pistols! Loved my duelists.

[Peanut]

Im pretty reluctant about this - I got in to warhammer to push blocks of troops around, but Im glad Eric is having us try it for the league. Better to try and know than be too upset about it without any experience. I appreciate peoples optimism about it though!

[MexicanNinja]

You can still push blocks of troops around.  That's the great thing about this change.  Like it was stated in the first video I posted.  You can drop from a horde of 50 models to a unit of 30 with a few characters in the front.

 

Personally, I love the flexibility of the 50/50.  I currently hated Dark Elf Infantry; however, I can now get access to a few more heroes so I can toss 3 here or 3 there and now my dreadspears are a threat because there are a few characters in the unit who can dish out some counter CR.  I just think this is phenomenal.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Im pretty reluctant about this - I got in to warhammer to push blocks of troops around, but Im glad Eric is having us try it for the league. Better to try and know than be too upset about it without any experience. I appreciate peoples optimism about it though!

will still have blocks to push around but as I said my list will depend on the community. If lists start looking filthy I will bring the counter filth, if players keep it low key and fun I will keep the filth at home.

 

I am struggling with my O&G army but I believe that army has a higher learning curve than the vast majority of armies. But after OFCC and watching a number of videos I know what makes a filthy Empire list. (I softened my Empire list a bit for OFCC, it could have been much much meaner.) So I am watching a observing what is going to happen. And if my opponent brings a DP or hero filled horde to my front door I will ave deaf ears to their cries of how broken cannons and Runefangs are.

 

And I haven't played a Steamtank in a long time preparing for OFCC. My Dark Elves, even longer.

[Drak]

ML I think reactionary list building like you mentioned in your post is what contributes to the problem. I would instead encourage you to play the list you want to and if your opponent brings the filth (in your opinion) then tell them that while you mention it wasn't fun to play against. it's on them to get the message or they will find a lack of opponents and thus games.

 

when you bing cheese to counter cheese you set the time for the gaming environment and new players who show up are introduced to a culture that is not representative of what Ordo is striving to put forth (IMO).

[Don't Panic]

i kinda think he has it a bit wrong about hordes imo.  the 6 spells can deal with hordes quite well in 8th(unlike 7th) and Magic resistance/ward saves doesnt help at all really for the scary ones like final trans, dwellers, purple sun... and once you've knocked those hordes down to 15-20 from shooting and magic, most msu builds can take care of them at that point.  and he overlooked some msu tactics a bit with the 'make way' argument.  idk ive kinda had a change in thought to think this really wont be as bad as people are thinking.  it will just diversify builds a bit is all which hey thats a positive for the game right?  will be fun to test out and see first in our meta.. 

[valourunbound]

If this pans out the way I hope it does, my Witch Hunter Empire army may see the table again. It won't be very good, but 1200 points of actual Witch Hunters? Thank you fluff hammer, thank you very much.

 

Have fun keeping track of all the Accusations.

[MexicanNinja]

i kinda think he has it a bit wrong about hordes imo.  the 6 spells can deal with hordes quite well in 8th(unlike 7th) and Magic resistance/ward saves doesnt help at all really for the scary ones like final trans, dwellers, purple sun... and once you've knocked those hordes down to 15-20 from shooting and magic, most msu builds can take care of them at that point.  and he overlooked some msu tactics a bit with the 'make way' argument.  idk ive kinda had a change in thought to think this really wont be as bad as people are thinking.  it will just diversify builds a bit is all which hey thats a positive for the game right?  will be fun to test out and see first in our meta.. 

The mention of hordes was just an example.  He was more or less talking about character sniping with death magic.  Of course the spells you mentioned will still do wonders and they should be what people fear from making a super deathstar.

 

Again, he's just talking about characters and not MSU compared to make way.  His point was that in 7th you couldn't make way beyond the first rank with your characters and that any character in the second rank was stuck where they were at, so that when you got hit with a flank charge you didn't have the option to toss a character into combat.  He was just comparing the huge advantage units with characters have in 8th compared to 7th.  We all know the power of a MSU.  The non-engage army is one of the deadliest armies to face.

 

I don't think it's going to be as bad either.  Also, the meta in their areas is much much different than in our area.  They play in a very competitive environment.  The army lists aren't even in the same category as the majority we play with.  I don't see many people jumping at max character points min core points here.  Sure, there may be a rise in characters (i know I wouldn't mind a few extra masters on cold ones) but I don't think we'll even begin to get close to the OTT builds.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

ML I think reactionary list building like you mentioned in your post is what contributes to the problem. I would instead encourage you to play the list you want to and if your opponent brings the filth (in your opinion) then tell them that while you mention it wasn't fun to play against. it's on them to get the message or they will find a lack of opponents and thus games.

when you bing cheese to counter cheese you set the time for the gaming environment and new players who show up are introduced to a culture that is not representative of what Ordo is striving to put forth (IMO).

I actually agree with you here fully. I will be bringing my O&G army and try to play some fun games. BUT if the majority of players start bringing the Herostars and Double Daemon Princes (and you know a number of people ran out and bought a second the moment they saw the FAQ.) then I will adjust to play against them.

 

I am just stating here and now I want to play for fun, but if the community goes this direction I will build lists purposely to counter such lists. I do not want to get tabled anymore than I already do with my less powerful builds. (If you look at my army collection you will see I am not building for the filth lists and purposely avoid them. And I really really want it to stay that way.)

 

So see my post as more of a topic opener and plea for the Ordo community to discuss what direction we want to go before you bring the double Daemon Princes. Please.

[MexicanNinja]

I actually agree with you here fully. I will be bringing my O&G army and try to play some fun games. BUT if the majority of players start bringing the Herostars and Double Daemon Princes (and you know a number of people ran out and bought a second the moment they saw the FAQ.) then I will adjust to play against them.

 

I am just stating here and now I want to play for fun, but if the community goes this direction I will build lists purposely to counter such lists. I do not want to get tabled anymore than I already do with my less powerful builds. (If you look at my army collection you will see I am not building for the filth lists and purposely avoid them. And I really really want it to stay that way.)

 

So see my post as more of a topic opener and plee for the Ordo community to discuss what direction we want to go before you bring the double Daemon Princes. Please.

You don't need filth to beat filth.  You keep talking about O&G as if they are just a weak army with no competitive nature.  You have a ton of non-filth choices at your disposal.  You are just building a specific list with a theme in mind.  Nearly all themed lists will have flaws because when you build a themed list you are decided to only use certain things from the army book and neglect to take the other tools at your disposal.

 

As an O&G player, you have access to some very cheap and effective war machines.  Never underestimate the power of a well placed rock lobba shot.  Again, two rock lobbas and two doom divers is not at all cheesy and is nothing to take lightly.  You have options to counter the 50/50 with still only using the 25/25.  A units of 18 trolls will still Clown the character walls and that unit of trolls isn't something that people don't already use.

 

Of course people went and purchased a second DP, if you're playing in a lot of competitive tournaments why wouldn't you have a second one if that's what you want to bring?  How many armies have you played in your last 20 games which had a kitted out nurgle DP?  If you weren't worried about that in your past 20 games, why would you be worried about a double DP list in your next 10 games? 

 

The second video I posted pretty much nailed the 50/50 with his examples of gaming communities, pick-up games, tournament comps (he did mention tournament organizers capping unit selections to 500 points), and GT's.

 

Ask yourself this question when list builidng:

 

1) Out of every five armies/games you face/play, how many of them are horde based?  If your answer is three or more then you should be building list that deal with them now.  If someone adds 6 characters to their horde it is still a horde and should be dealt with the same way with minor adjustments for dealing with or ignoring the characters.  You still have re-directors and can still perform the double flee tactic on them.

 

2) Out of every five armies/games you face/play, how many of them are character dependent?  Again, if your answer is three or more then you should be currently building lists to deal with them.

 

There aren't a lot of characters who are going to survive on their own any more than characters do now.  What it does allow is for certain characters to be more aggressive but there is still risk/reward to think about.  Here's an example:

 

I have the option to run two Lords on a black dragon.  Am I going to play them any differently?  Probably not because I still don't want to give up 500+ points to my opponent for allowing them to magic/shoot them down.  That's not to say that there won't be the game when I am forced to "risk it for the biscuit" and play them more aggressively to see if they can survive the magic/shooting onslaught.  Sure, it may work against armies with no shooting; however, Beastmen may soon have access to shooting in the form of a hellcannon and/or skullcannon and then they may have a DP or something else to counter my Dragon move(s).

 

What I'm trying to say here is three things. 

 

First, don't be so quick to think that O&G are just a weak army with no chance at winning games. 

 

Second, everything with characters can be exploited now and there are some armies with more options to counter some of the exploits now. 

 

Third, there are some of us, even if it's very few, who think this change is flippin' awesome.  I play this game with the hopes to be challenged (strategically and tactically and to me this starts with building an army list)  while I play.  If I am not challenged or challenged very little during my game(s), it's really not that enjoyable.  This 50/50 option makes this challenge so much better for me.  If I show up to a game and my opponent dumps 2 Nurgle DP's on the table, the first thing in my head is "how long can I evade them, how fast can I shoot them down".  Again, I am extremely excited to field more characters and fight against more characters.  I can't wait to see what combo's people come up with.

[Krieger]

In all fairness O&G has a book that was originally designed for 7th edition. That alone is a handicap. Even worse their options for strong characters does not compare to the newer books in points cost or performance (btw cheap goblin heroes are not an exception) .

 

Now I am not saying they suck or are unplayable. However if you are already a lower tier book and there is a game wide lift in points allowance in an area you are clearly lacking. Then you can't argue that this is a hindrance.

[generalripphook]

Before we complain about orks being old we have bretonnia and beastmen who are even older.

[Krieger]

Very true lol. I am just glad that they are putting a lot into fanatsy right now. Even though the growing pains into these new rules and upcoming 9th edition might be slightly painful.

[Don't Panic]

and skaven...

[valourunbound]

and skaven...

 

Every time people talk about old books, they forget about skaven. This happened last edition too. It was always how WE are old, or Bretonnians are old, or O&G are underpowered.

It's like people try to forget about Skaven. Probably because it's just one of those armies where if everything goes right, you can't stop them.

However, when everything goes wrong (and it does) it creates quite a spectacular show.

[Fixxer]

I have never had an issue playing and feeling competitive with Orcs and Goblins. The book was NOT designed for 7th as it was the first book to come out for 8th. IF anything, the SKAVEN book, being one of the last released for 7th, was designed for 8th in mind. Skaven is a confusing army book with a lot of side rules, they are surely competitive. I think every army can be,  in the hands of the right general. 

 

People who are on here saying that O&G are a low tier army really dont understand their advantages and perhaps think about the book as if it were WoC or an Ogre book. O&G rely on their diversity and sheer number of models that can be fielded. Careful and patient movement phases and the ability to adapt when an animosity test or stupidity test is failed. Basically you cant be stuck on a divine strategy, gotta learn to improvise a little given the MINOR unpredictability the newest book brings. 

 

In my 2800-3000 point army I typically bring 40 biguns, 40 black orcs, 60 ngs, and 12 trolls with a couple warmachines and other chaff/flack. My main blocks, if they can, keep a strong battleline are practically unapproachable.  Ive NEVER felt like i was at a disadvantage with this army, nor would I make any excuses for it.

 

Steadfast is a great rule, cheap T4 troops are invaluable, cheap regen, cheap WMs, I dont see a problem.... at all.  A lot of talk about bringing 'filth' too, what are you waiting for? This is war. 

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Thanks for the words of encouragement Fixxer, I just find my O&G much more difficult to play compared to my other armies. And as far a adapting I 100% agree this must be the key I m trying to get down.

 

As for characters I might take advantage of the wiggle room for an extra weapon or Black Orc to keep my Boyz in check. But still feel the more Boyz the better.

 

Also will admit my lack of optimism not only comes from my lack of success but also never seeing great players fielding them and when I play my other armies against them I find it easy to counter and beat them becuase I know their weakness. Of course I haven't seen MN play them, see my point above, but as a visual learner it can be hard for me to translate a post into reality. (I learned the most about my DE and Empire by watching opponents beat me and saw their strengths.)

 

But man I feel I went way off topic.

[HeroZero]

I'm excited for 50% lord/Heros.

VC finally can play a blow out lord on dragon.

 

Oh and sword of anti heros .. Just saying.

[Fixxer]

Even in regards to the character discussion. The ability for an army to ignore the option to go 50% on heroes and lords and just bring a [big bad swear word]TON of guys is not a bad strategy.

 

I feel like the answer to really powerful characters is a block of steadfast infantry that can just step up and chip a wound here or there or even win combat by simply having static rez or a musician. One death star littered with characters vs 4 healthy sized combat blocks... Id put my money on the player with the horde.

 

It also lends to the narrative when a group of characters go up against a horde of enemies within the standard rules of the game. The BIG main rule book has a scenario where characters are pitted against an army in a "last stand" kind of thing. I think this rule change just allows that to be more of an option all the time.

 

Im happy to see the new challenge, but it will not change anything I do when it comes to writing up a list. Ive always been drawn to troops and horde armies anyway, I never feel confident in a list that has the character slots maxed, even when they were 25%/25%. 

[Krieger]

I have never had an issue playing and feeling competitive with Orcs and Goblins. The book was NOT designed for 7th as it was the first book to come out for 8th. IF anything, the SKAVEN book, being one of the last released for 7th, was designed for 8th in mind. Skaven is a confusing army book with a lot of side rules, they are surely competitive. I think every army can be, in the hands of the right general.

 

If you have never had an issue playing competitively then you must not play in a very competitive environment. A lot of good players often find it very difficult to play competitively with O&G.

 

O&G and TK were both originally designed for 7th before they were released for 8th. There obvious signs of 7th ed design through some but not all of the books.

 

People who are on here saying that O&G are a low tier army really dont understand their advantages and perhaps think about the book as if it were WoC or an Ogre book. O&G rely on their diversity and sheer number of models that can be fielded. Careful and patient movement phases and the ability to adapt when an animosity test or stupidity test is failed. Basically you cant be stuck on a divine strategy, gotta learn to improvise a little given the MINOR unpredictability the newest book brings.

 

 

In my 2800-3000 point army I typically bring 40 biguns, 40 black orcs, 60 ngs, and 12 trolls with a couple warmachines and other chaff/flack. My main blocks, if they can, keep a strong battleline are practically unapproachable. Ive NEVER felt like i was at a disadvantage with this army, nor would I make any excuses for it.

 

Unapproachable? A single Gut Star, big block of white lions, block of dark elf wyches, plague furnace,a big block of plauge bearers, a big block of mark of nurgle chaos warriors, or a vampire death star would absolutley destroy all those units in 1 to 2 turns(withe exception of the trolls in some cases). They would lose their steadfast and break.

 

Steadfast is a great rule, cheap T4 troops are invaluable, cheap regen, cheap WMs, I dont see a problem.... at all. A lot of talk about bringing 'filth' too, what are you waiting for? This is war.

With low Initiative, low WS, no rerolls, horrible magic support and poor Ld othey are still low tier. Not to mention the t4 troops are either over costed or lose any real value by having poor stats and access to saves to make their low cost worth it.

 

I still love the army and I think they still have some punch. However they are low tier army and there are instances where a 50% lords game combined with far superior units and better magic support will make it a no contest game.

 

I do think most people want to play a more flavorful game so I hope this doesnt come into play. But to say that this isnt a possibility or that people just dont know how to play the army is just something I can't agree with.

[Krieger]

I know the book was the first one releases for 8th. It was originally designed with 7th in mind and then finished for 8th. This is why when you look through O&G and the TK book you will notice signs of 7th edition design in some but not all of the book.

 

Skaven being designed for 8th is just ludicrous. The worst set of FAQ's and there own stead fast rule are enough proof alone.