Haemonculus Covens

[AbusePuppy]

The counter to that setup for any shooting force is actually really simple: if your army is fast, you go in the center for maximum distance to move away; if not, you deploy towards the corners. That means LH either has to send everything at one "flank" of the army, which will mean if/when they kill it they'll have to trek across the whole battlefield to get to the other half. Or, alternately, he can send part of his army at each half of things and guarantee that one half of it will fail in its mission due to the combined shooting from the two flanks.

 

Also, Scout, Infiltrate, and Servo-Skulls will all denythe Taloii their own Scout move pretty easily, which is a problem given how dependent he is on it.

[Lord Hanaur]

@fluger: I should get that program at some point. I think LH needs a better visual that we can give with normal words.

Before I do, who is the warlord and where are they presently? What did you get for a warlord trait? Which "experiments" did you take? Oh, and if you could keep me updated on your current power from pain level, that would be awesome.

 

For me, none of my psychic powers are randomly rolled. Warlord is the GK terminator justicar for the 5-man TDA unit. He "rolled" the #6 power for GK, which gives him a bonus power on the Daemonology (santic) table, for which I'll take "Vortex of Doom" cause I like that suicidal power...

 

Oh, I'm assuming no night fighting turn 1, though you could take that warlord trait to make it so.

Its a free down load and it takes like two minutes to put it on a computer.  Takes more time to find the 40K module for it than it does to actually load it.

 

My warlord is Urien Rakarth and his trait chocsen for him.  He's with Grotesques.  I get the +1 STR enhancement on my Grotesques.  I have no Psykers so its all pretty straight forward.

 

Gonna punch til it hurts basically.

[Lord Hanaur]

The counter to that setup for any shooting force is actually really simple: if your army is fast, you go in the center for maximum distance to move away; if not, you deploy towards the corners. That means LH either has to send everything at one "flank" of the army, which will mean if/when they kill it they'll have to trek across the whole battlefield to get to the other half. Or, alternately, he can send part of his army at each half of things and guarantee that one half of it will fail in its mission due to the combined shooting from the two flanks.

 

Also, Scout, Infiltrate, and Servo-Skulls will all denythe Taloii their own Scout move pretty easily, which is a problem given how dependent he is on it.

wait that doesnt make sense.  If Im centered and hes centered, where is there for him to go except into me?

  Hes given me first turn so ...

 

Spliiting up far and wide is far from terrible advice.  I would definitely do that if I was him.  It actually doesn't solve many problems for him in the long term, but in the short term it helps him a little.  His trouble is if I select corner B and attack, corner a is like 60+" over yonder.  So its not hurting me from there.  I can finish up my grisly work in round 2, round 3 mount up again and jet, then eject in round 4 and do it again.  Possibly turn 5 depending on how the melees went.

[WestRider]

Split Deployment doesn't go that far apart. You put the two parts like 36-48" apart from each other so they're still in Heavy Weapons Range to support each other. Longer-ranged stuff like Russes and Artillery farther out on the flanks. I used to use that as my staple strategy with my Guard for years, and it worked great. Tau and a lot of Marine forces can do it very well, too.

[AbusePuppy]

wait that doesnt make sense.  If Im centered and hes centered, where is there for him to go except into me?

 

Er... What? You starts towards the center, he starts towards the center, you have first turn. Your units trundle towards him, he moves back either directly away (towards the back board edge), diagonally away (towards his board corners), or perpendicularly away (towards the side board edges.) There's actually quite a lot of room to maneuver and if you try to "preempt" him and cut off a direction of movement (such as by moving towards the corners yourself), you're wasting a significant portion of your ability to push towards them.

 

 

Spliiting up far and wide is far from terrible advice.  I would definitely do that if I was him.  It actually doesn't solve many problems for him in the long term, but in the short term it helps him a little.  His trouble is if I select corner B and attack, corner a is like 60+" over yonder.  So its not hurting me from there.  I can finish up my grisly work in round 2, round 3 mount up again and jet, then eject in round 4 and do it again.  Possibly turn 5 depending on how the melees went.

 

No, it really isn't, it's a very common strategy, as WestRider points out. Shooting armies have been using it against melee armies in 40K and in other games for a long, long time now. The fact that the technique is apparently completely foreign to you does not speak well of your ability to outplay and outthink your opponents.

 

You're not going to get any turn 2 charges unless your FNP dice have been absolutely unbelievable. Just for an example, a basic Tau list after destroying your three Raiders containing Grotesques is going to force you to make somewhere in the neighborhood of fifty cover save/FNP on those Grots- in other words they are going to kill, on average, eight Grotesques without undue difficulty (and that's assuming a minimal quantity of Markerlights not being used to ignore cover at all) with a limited portion of their army. And you have zero ways to realistically stop them from doing that, because your army doesn't really have any shooting to speak of, so on turn 2 they'll get to do that again, completely unimpeded, whereas you have lost a large portion of your forces to them already.

[Lord Hanaur]

Er... What? You starts towards the center, he starts towards the center, you have first turn. Your units trundle towards him, he moves back either directly away (towards the back board edge), diagonally away (towards his board corners), or perpendicularly away (towards the side board edges.) There's actually quite a lot of room to maneuver

 

That's your adaption plan?  Move back or sideways?  This illustrates how little you were paying attention when I told you earlier what the plan is.

 

I said that I end 1" to 7" away depending on his deployment.  i also already told you the Grotesques and Wracks form a bracket ESPECIALLY if he deploys centrally, like you're suggesting he do. 

 

Option 1:  he deployed to the back of the board (and centrally as you want him to).  If he did this, I'm about 6-7" away (given tank widths and the turn-and-go trick with Raiders), he's boxed in and his lateral movement ceases to matter because as mentioned, the Grotesques are on the wings anyways.  If he moves over 6", his shooting is screwed and I'm STILL easily within charge range.  So much so in fact that I could roll double ones and make it.  THAT's how much good his "plethora of movement options" will do him.

 

Option 2:  he deployed all the way forward (and centrally, again as you suggest).  In this case even if he backs UP (takes movement as im bracketing him plus the 1" barrier) and THEN latrally he's made almost no difference in his ending position and given up his shooting (if he moves over 6")...  for what?  If his DW Knights are behind the Raider as he says they would be, then he's gotta go around them too, to move!  Its a FUBAR situation if he does what you're telling him to do.  Dunkirk all over again.

 

So in what way is that good advice for him when I've already told you what I'm going to do and deployed so that you can see it coming???  You're literally offering me the proverbial silver platter and plopping Paxmiles on it by telling him "yeah but you can move and snap fire at the Raiders afterwards and make Lord Hanaur walk a little further to do the inevitable".  How is that HELPING his cause?  Just stick a neon sign above his army that says "Eat at Joe's"

 

The conundrum is simple if he deploys centrally:  He cant move over 6" because he NEEDS to kill those Raiders.  6" won't get him far enough to escape ANYTHING and 12" is jut an annoyance that changes nothing about my next round except that my aidrs will survive.  So he is better off manning up, firing his lasers into my boats and caving them in with grenades or Hammers if he can reach (which we as the Coven are assuming will happen by phase end to at least the Grotesque Raiders even after Jinking).  Since he said he'll hide his Knights BEHIND the raider to avoid me blocking his exits off etc...  I will use the 7" buffer plus length of the raider to make that DW Knight charge at least uncertain at best and certainly make multi-charges impossible.  He didn't give his DreadKnights the Teleporty things so they are pretty slow too, and will have to flame into me and then crash into the hull to try and finish it.

 

So you can see why I'm incredulous that you would tell him to do exactly what I'd want him to do.  You tell him to do this yet then insult HIS tactical acumen?

 

If he wants any chance here, it's going to have to be by splitting up his forces in some much more creative way.  That comes with its own perils but it's that or let me waste all his DreadKnights, Techmarine and Scouts in a single glorious first charge...  which is what will probably happen.

[AbusePuppy]

Well, aside from the fact that I think pax's list is pretty middling at best, with lots of weaknesses of its own (no offense, pax- I realize that making it the Mightiest Tournament Champion wasn't your main goal, and I can respect that) I wasn't talking about his list, I was talking in a more general sense and about shooting lists, which pax's isn't at all.

 

Really, as a list that is melee-centric pax doesn't need to avoid you- if he sits his Dreadknights and DWK in cover, he can pretty reliably destroy anything you send at him by just sort of crushing them to pieces with S10 hits (although I think the lack of Force Weapon upgrade on his Dreadknights is a major mistake that weakens him in this scenario.) Neither your Grots nor your Taloii have grenades, so it guarantees that the DK and DWK will get to swing first and do a lot of damage to you- for example, presuming the DWK are properly equipped with Greatswords, they will kill approximately three Grotesques or Taloi before either gets to swing at them- essentially half of your unit, in the case of the Talos formation. His Terminators will also put a lot of hurt on your Grotesques thanks to S6 Force Weapons; with Stern leading the unit, he can expect to kill seven Grotesques in a single set of swings with Hammerhand/Force up.

 

That's your problem right there. You aren't fast enough to pin down a shooting army and you aren't punchy enough to beat a melee army. None of that stuff about clever movement or anything else matters a single whit if, when you finally get there, the other guy just blows your units to pieces.

[Guest]

Really, as a list that is melee-centric pax doesn't need to avoid you- if he sits his Dreadknights and DWK in cover, he can pretty reliably destroy anything you send at him by just sort of crushing them to pieces with S10 hits (although I think the lack of Force Weapon upgrade on his Dreadknights is a major mistake that weakens him in this scenario.

Yeah, it's a hypothetical list. So I'm not certain on anything. I tend to play overly cautious.

 

Anyway, @LH:

Almost entire army is going reserves. LRR is hiding behind a 4 story ruin with the techpriest hidden behind (in the very corner on my left side). "Ruined" terrain fortified by techpriest. GK terms are deep striking. Scouts are split and are outflanking. Stern, chappy, and knights are deep striking. Dreadknights are deep striking.

 

Your turn 1.

[Lord Hanaur]

Yeah, it's a hypothetical list. So I'm not certain on anything. I tend to play overly cautious.

 

Anyway, @LH:

Almost entire army is going reserves. LRR is hiding behind a 4 story ruin with the techpriest hidden behind (in the very corner on my left side). "Ruined" terrain fortified by techpriest. GK terms are deep striking. Scouts are split and are outflanking. Stern, chappy, and knights are deep striking. Dreadknights are deep striking.

 

Your turn 1.

Much smarter play than the center.  Good man.

[Guest]

Much smarter play than the center.  Good man.

Thanks. I'll note that the GK are going to roll reserves turn 1. Part of their NFS detachment rules. That big unit will arrive normally, as it isn't purely GK.

[Lord Hanaur]

Kay Ill get back to you.

 

In the meantime, i did get to play a game against Blood Angels.  That Initiative boost plays big.  He deployed centrally though and his drop stuff wasnt fast enough for my 36" scooch away moves...  First time the disintegrator cannons got to shine.  12 shots a round into exposed Marines is a good time while the Grotesques and Talos battled it out with the units that they could reach.

[Lord Hanaur]

Thanks. I'll note that the GK are going to roll reserves turn 1. Part of their NFS detachment rules. That big unit will arrive normally, as it isn't purely GK.

The thing you have to love about NFS is that even though you still have to roll for it, getting them in turn 1 really means a lot more deployment options like this.  I definitely approve. 

And reserve manipulation in that list would be swell.

[Guest]

The thing you have to love about NFS is that even though you still have to roll for it, getting them in turn 1 really means a lot more deployment options like this.  I definitely approve. 

And reserve manipulation in that list would be swell.

If your list didn't have the deathstar it has, I could drop Stern from that large squad of knights and chappy, then get them to arrive a turn earlier via DW rules.

 

I would have gone all reserve, but I want the Land Raider present to give your army something to move towards. The LRR isn't really a threat to your death star, but being the only thing which can damage it, you will probably have to attempt to deal with it anyway via your deathstar. Ignoring it is fine too. The techmarine is there for repairs in this army. It's 5+ repairs without the harness or servo arms, but that's what I need him to do.

 

The GK justicar getting the bonus santic, which was that psychic vortex, also changes the role of that GK term squad. I can do much more damage as a DS psychic attack unit than I would as a melee assault unit.

 

I am wishing I had brought teleport homers in this list. Pretre's point regarding force weapons on the Dreadknights is also a solid argument for consideration. Also, against your list, the heavy incinerators would be better choices than those heavy psycannons. It really isn't a tailored list.

 

Also, I did look into that coven list more. Looks like you can field it without formations, not unlike Militarum Tempestus. That said, it is not a stand alone codex and your fielding only formations, not the normal detachment rules for them. Militarum Tempestus is a stand alone codex, including all the information for its units within its pages.

[Lord Hanaur]

Not sure why we're still on the Militarum Tempestus comparisons but all I'll say is this:  Covens have to use Formations.  Its that simple really.

[Guest]

Not sure why we're still on the Militarum Tempestus comparisons but all I'll say is this:  Covens have to use Formations.  Its that simple really.

It doesn't really matter. If you do want to use them without formations, rules for their detachment are under "COVENITE COTERIE" detachments. They aren't required to use formations.

[Lord Hanaur]

K. So I finally got to play against the new triple Storm Raven Blood Angel formation.

 

Quickly realized my entire army is incapablr of killing a Storm Raven. Like I lierally couldnt do it. The Storm Ravens bombarded my Talos in round one and again round two followed by charging them w Dante and his press gang of coolio Marines. I eventually repelled them but did it on my turn(d'oh). He was able to regroup and killed the last Talos w shooting. First time its died. Oofta.

 

I was able, despite my complete lack of answers for those Ravens in the post-Talos era, to score points and whallop the units I reached.

 

In the end, he led the first four rounds and I was really ferling the lack of obsec in Coven lists.

 

I tied it in the 5th, 6th and finally got up by a point the bottom of seven!!! Coven victory.

 

Clear MVP'S were my Grotesques, with their shred upgrade. But equally important were my Raiders that really kept the pressure on certain objectives, slingshotting to stop him from taking them as fast as he needed to.objective six was particularly critical all game and was a serious battleground.

 

There were two Skyfire Nexus's ironically but not a singleunit strong enough to punch his armor.

 

I had serious fun. Final score was 11-10.

[Guest]

K. So I finally got to play against the new triple Storm Raven Blood Angel formation.

 

Quickly realized my entire army is incapablr of killing a Storm Raven. Like I lierally couldnt do it. The Storm Ravens bombarded my Talos in round one and again round two followed by charging them w Dante and his press gang of coolio Marines. I eventually repelled them but did it on my turn(d'oh). He was able to regroup and killed the last Talos w shooting. First time its died. Oofta.

 

I was able, despite my complete lack of answers for those Ravens in the post-Talos era, to score points and whallop the units I reached.

 

In the end, he led the first four rounds and I was really ferling the lack of obsec in Coven lists.

 

I tied it in the 5th, 6th and finally got up by a point the bottom of seven!!! Coven victory.

 

Clear MVP'S were my Grotesques, with their shred upgrade. But equally important were my Raiders that really kept the pressure on certain objectives, slingshotting to stop him from taking them as fast as he needed to.objective six was particularly critical all game and was a serious battleground.

 

There were two Skyfire Nexus's ironically but not a singleunit strong enough to punch his armor.

 

I had serious fun. Final score was 11-10.

Can't your overpriced talos blob man the skyfire nexus? I mean, aren't they the only dedicated AT in the entire army, anyway?

[fluger]

He's talking about a list that didn't have Talos.  

 

 

 

I was able, despite my complete lack of answers for those Ravens in the post-Talos era, to score points and whallop the units I reached.

[Lord Hanaur]

No i had talos. But he killed them with storm ravens and tied them up. So they all died, unable to usr the nexus. Lol.

[fluger]

FINE!

[Lord Hanaur]

Lol. Yeah as I have mentioned before, the Talos are not the armies centerpiece. I used them in this instance to allow me to null deploy. His missiles and meltas were plenty good enough to whack my talos but good.

[AbusePuppy]

For something that isn't the centerpiece, they sure take up a large portion of its resources and focus.

[Guest]

For something that isn't the centerpiece, they sure take up a large portion of its resources and focus.

Been trying to tell him that.

 

@LH: That talos unit needs to become the centerpiece if it's going to represent that much of your army. Just needs to. If not, you need to ditch it or have a more impressive single unit that is the centerpiece...

 

On a side note, those DE Reapers (FW, heavy slot on the FOC for DE) are really what the list needs. 135pts each, they basically have a haywire cannon that fire at a single target or a large blast version. Should be a pretty easy conversion job from a raider, too. Basically a raider with a cannon instead of the ram prow. They aren't very durable, but they'd really make your talos unit less of a threat, and units afraid of haywire would need more choice between the talos and the reapers.

 

At present, list's main issue is that it encourages the opponent to focus on that talos unit. This is fine if the talos unit can survive that negative attention. If they don't survive, the army falls apart. You need to either make the talos unit more durable, or make the rest of the army more able to draw fire away from the talos.

 

The AA issue is a moot point, as that should have been covered with that talos unit. The issue at hand is that the talos didn't do what you intended them to do (that would be battlefield domination, right?).

[Lord Hanaur]

My army falls apart if they die?  But...I won...  Remember?  His entire army was down to three Ravens, a lone scout and 6 marines by games end.  Not bad for having fallen apart I'd say.

 

 

I should have backed them off once his stuff unloaded and given myself an extra turn to shoot.  There was a big LOS blocking hill in the middle, next to me, and I could have taken cover as well as made for the Skyfire Nexus.  No game is perfect.  Lesson learned.

 

Storm Ravens are just so good.  Expensive but good.

 

And Im not going down the Forge World route in any event.  No way.

[Guest]

My army falls apart if they die?  But...I won...  Remember?  His entire army was down to three Ravens, a lone scout and 6 marines by games end.  Not bad for having fallen apart I'd say.

No, you didn't do too bad. Did very well, as I gather, though I think it was more you the amazing player, and less the army. Could be wrong, I didn't see the game and am only going from what you posted.