Guest Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 It depends on what you want in your Army. If you're just looking at ways to get Grav in, and don't need what the Dominus brings, he's absolutely a tax Unit when comparing Kataphrons and Devs. The Dominus also has some serious lacks compared to the Master of the Forge. He doesn't fortify a piece of Terrain, he doesn't have the option for high S Attacks with the Servo Harness, can't take a Bike to expand his Repair Radius, can't take a Conversion Beamer or other truly long-ranged Weaponry. Fortified terrain is a double edged sword. If the opponent can take it, they get the bolstered cover too. That happened in my games twice at the annihilation event (I did win 1 of those). I do see this point though. The other bits seem petty. Servo harness is lost, but he's got a power axe with 2 base attacks (plus a pistol and a dataspike attack, for 5 attacks on the charge). His repair roll is 2+ as opposed to the techmarine 5+ or 4+. The conversion beamer is sort of a loss, though taking one means total loss of the servo arms, the harness weapons, and it makes repairs only on a 5+. I always thought the conversion beamer was too expensive for a master of the forge, just because he sacrificed his entire servo harness for it. As for a ranged role, he's relentless with a stock 24" S6 Volklite blaster, so he's got a very potent ranged potential. Though all that aside, there are a few unit upgrades attainable through attaching a Dominus IC to another of SM. The "Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land" grants IWND to any joined unit. That Infoslave Skull also has minor use if attached to non-SW outflankers (acute senses). I'm also seeing some very cheesy applications of that "stasis field" to just put him in front/attached to/of a more viable unit and let him soak fire. No, the major loss would be if you were fielding the Master of the Forge for the heavy slot dreads. Or if you want one of the chapter specific special rules, warlord traits, or relics. As for armies like Iron hands, I don't think they'd field the Dominus instead of a master of the forge, rather in addition to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 I specified High S Attacks. He's got nothing like the MotF's S8 AP1 Servo Arm Attacks. Also, 24" is not long-ranged. That's basic small-arms fire range. His firepower is strong, but it's not long-ranged, like the Conversion Beamer is. Fortified Terrain getting captured, well, that means that either you were too aggressive in your choice of Terrain piece, or you didn't have a sufficient backfield force for a garrison for it. Or you were just overmatched and completely overrun, which is the only time that's ever happened in any of my Games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Hmmm...Then I've been using the term wrong. I only consider it a tax if you're only paying it because you have to. Typically "tax" is any mandatory inclusion in an army- so you have an HQ tax, a Troop tax, etc. Your meaning is also not uncommonly used, though, in the sense that a "tax" is a unit that you are forced to take but probably wouldn't have otherwise. In that respect, most HQs are "taxes" because the points-per-effectiveness on HQs is almost inevitably lower than that of other models. Since most people aren't taking a Cult Mechanicus detachment specifically in order to get access to 2+ repair or any of the other things that the Dominus offers, I think it's safe to call him a "tax." That's not to say he's not good or useful, as Chapter Smasher in the SM codex is also a "tax" in that sense even though he's quite strong, but in neither case are they the reason you want to take the army; they're something in the army you're required to take, hence a tax. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Compiled B&C SM codex info - via Warseer new info from b&c(russ): I have seen the new Marine Codex the command tanks are not in it. Tac Squads can take Grav, All dreadnoughts now have 4 base attacks. Only LOW is Calgar. No master of the Forge but Techmarines can take Conversion Beamers. Iron Hand Chapter Tactics now add +1 to feel no pain. Raven Guard lost Scout but now get Shrouded turn 1 and +1 to roll for Night fight. Most others stay similar. Any other questions i'll try my best to answer. Sallies get 4+ FNP against flame weapons and preroll to wound with them. Scars can no longer scout land raiders. Templars can't take Librarians and get rage if they take damage from shooting the previous turn or overwatch. Bolter Drill can use special ammo now. Tac Doctrine lets tac squads reroll all hits in shooting and assault. Formations looked ok nothing amazing. The termi one can DS from turn 1. No assault marine formation. Bike are troops if you take any HQ on a bike, no need to be five man now. Temis squads of both kinds got a 5 point drop but TH SS cost the same as before after buying the upgrade for them. Centurions are pretty much the same. Ultras get the 3 doctrines other chapters can use the tac one once a game if they take the decurian which is call Gladius Strike force. no change in relics Templars get counter attack too after getting shot. Other armies only get the tac doc if they take the extra expensive formations. The docs look a lot better Ultras probably have the best chapter tactics still. Twin links grav centurions in pods seems scary. Chapter Master is now an upgrade for a captain. Basically they all allow to reroll ones for either shooting or assault depending on which one it is. Tacs reroll everything for the tac doc. Assault marines and assault centurions reroll all hits in combat for assault. Devs and Dev centurions reroll shooting to hit for theirs. More from B&C -Templars get counter attack too after getting shot. -Other armies (not UM) only get the tac doc if they take the extra expensive formations. -The docs look a lot better Ultras probably have the best chapter tactics still.Twin links grav centurions in pods seems scarey. -Chapter Master is now an upgrade for a captain. And regarding doctrines Basically they all allow to reroll ones for either shooting or assault depending on which one it is. Tacs reroll everything for the tac doc. Assault marines and assault centurions reroll all hits in combat for assault. Devs and Dev centurions reroll shooting to hit for theirs. [user comment, not from B&C source Russ] So,from what i understand of it,the UM trait IS the doctrines,one use each as in the old codex.If an UM army uses the formations that enables other chapters use the doctrines,they get more uses instead. The best formation from what I saw is strike force ultra. Can arrive turn 1 get +1 shot if ds or +1 a if assault from a vehicle. All vehicles can squadron you get bonus if you take 3. Whirlwinds get shred and pinning. Preds get monster and tank hunter. Again,B&C -Honour Guard are still there can be in units of 10 and can take raiders as transport. -There is a Raider formation. -Both anti air tanks got better, the stalker can fire twice at 2 targets or can be twin linked. -Signum no change. -Vanguard can reroll charge distance,1 or both dice,and ignore disordered charge. -Most Character stayed the same, -Emperor's Champion got a buff always s6 ap2 now. -Telion is now a HQ.He is an IC. -So is Cronos,he has 2 wounds and can join a unit if his tank is destroyed. -Techmarines all have 2 wounds now. -TFC can be taken in squadrons, if you have 3 you get +1 BS. Same source as above -Calgar can pick his Warlord Trait from the marine list the best one being FNP. - Shrike and any jump unit he joins can infiltrate. -Vulcan master crafts melt weapons. -Khan gives scout to bikes rhinos and razors. -No Iron Hand character. -Lysander has 4 wounds and Eternal warrior still and Fist or Dorn is +6S. Fist is still unwieldy. -Kantor makes Sternguards objective secured -Helbrecth gives all units Hatred and Fleet once per game. -Sicarius lets you effect reserves and give one tac squad a usr. -Kahn, Sicarius and Him still only ap3. -Honour Guard and Command Squads are Elites now you don't need characters to take them. -All termis are 5 cheaper TH SS upgrade is 5 points more. -You can take a librarian formation where one librarian can know any of the powers the others have if they don't cast and warp charges are on 3+ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Leman Russ SW on Warseer: Only Calgar is LOW all others are HQ Raven Guard get shrouded till the start of turn 2 Jump packs can still be used for movement and assault and get rerolls, I believe all units and Dreadnoughts get shrouded but not 100% >Are Honor guards' rules changed? Do they still come with Art. armor, bolter, pistol and Power weapon? Thanks in advance, Leman Russ SW! Still the same, get raider as transport, units of up to 10, can take relic blades and Champion can take Hammer. If you take a full company all dedicated transports are free You have to take a Demi company which is Captain or Chaplian, 3 Tac Squads, 1 Dev Squad or Dev Centurion Squad, one Assault, bike or Assault Centurion Squad then you can take different Auxiliary detachments. The Demi Company allows you to use the Tactical Doctrine once per game. Most of the Auxiliary detachment can be take on their own as a formation. Didn't check scout bikes, if you take the scout formation they all get precision shot first turn and any turn they don't do anything they get shrouded. Only Compulsory in gladius is a demi company, there are lots of auxiliaries you can take. No free stuff unless you take a full company then you get free dedicated transport. Gadius is the name of the Decurion style formation the only thing you have to take is a demi company there are lots of options to take most of the stuff in the codex with it. heavy bolsters are not free neither is flakk. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Wait, if I take a full company, all transports are free? Shut the front door. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 That was what I was hoping for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Shrouded turn 1 is OK, especially with most likely getting night fight as well. The lack of scout though is pretty dumb. It makes scouts way better though, and I guess that's the point. Overall, not having any bonuses after the first turn is pretty dumb IMO. Oh well, I'll reserve judgement until I see the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Iuchiban@Warseer wrote:Ok, let's go: The basic "Decurión" is the Demi battle company: - 1 Captain or Chaplain - 0-1 Command squad - 3 Tactical squads - 1 Assault squad, Bike squad, Attack bike squad, Land speeder squad or Assault Cents. - 1 Devastator squad or Dev Cent squad. - 0-1 Dreadnought of any type. This formation may use any battle doctrines once per battle If you take 2 Demi-Companies, you get a full Company. (First company with a Captain and the second with a Chaplain). If done so, any unit that is able to purchase a Rhino, Razorback or Drop Pod, may do so without any additional cost. Termins are now 175 points (Both types), altough hammer and shied cost +10 points Devastator, for +5 points, may once per game, reroll to hit. Grav cannons + amp cost 35 points. Chapter master upgrade is not one per army. No Land Raider Squadrons, but one Formation (3 Land Raiders of any type). They reroll to wound vs Gargantuan Creatures and to penétrate vs Superhevies. If they are at 6" of any other Raider of the formation, they ignore any result on the damage chart but destroyed. To get the benefit of the tank squadrons you need 3 of them. You lose the benefit if you lose a tank. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Okay, so minimum full company: Demi 1 Captain 90 3 Tacs - 210 1 Assault - 70 1 Dev Squad - 70 440 Demi 2 Chaplain 90 3 Tacs - 210 1 Assault - 70 1 Dev Squad - 70 440 880 bump those up to 10 man each and you're at 1580. That gives you 270 in heavy weapons/upgrades and then you get 10 free Razorbacks or drop pods or whatever. Not bad. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Some more from Iuchiban: Calgar (275) may choose his warlord trait from the codex. They are: - Warlord gains Fear. Test is done with 3D6. - Warlord and his unit get Furious Charge - Warlord has FnP - Every shooting phase pick a unit at max 12". Shooting weapons of this unit get the Rending SR - Any unit in the same Detachment may use Warlord's Ld - Any unit at 12" reroll Ld tests (Moral, Pinning, Fear) His army may use one additional doctrine, once per game. BTW doctrines are cumulative. If you have an Ultramarines detachment, using a DemiCompany and Calgar, you may use the same doctrine 3 times during the battle. Tigurius (165). Pretty much the same. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Iuchiban at warseer wrote:This is for the Gladius detachment. Benefits of the Demi-Company are: - Tactic Doctrine may be used once per game (cumulative with other doctrines) - They get objetive secured 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 1450 gets you the following: Captain & Chappy 6x5 Tacticals w/Combi-Grav & Grav Cannon 2x5 Assault Marines w/2 Flamers 2x5 Devs w/4 Grav Cannons 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Dude. Looking sweet. Like Necrontyr, tho, I'm really hoping this carries over to DA. I've almost got their whole 5th Company, while I've only got a few Squads of Crimson Thunder done. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbitron Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 The Full Company thing sounds super fun. Almost makes me want to just start collecting Space Marines. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 The Full Company thing sounds super fun. Almost makes me want to just start collecting Space Marines. I know someone with plenty of cheap marines. :) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbitron Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 I know someone with plenty of cheap marines. :) Would they take nids in trade? Otherwise I'd probably have to liquidate them first before I could convince the wife.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbitron Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 I think the most depressing is the *why* I am thinking about it. I love Nids, I love the fluff and mentality behind them. I just hate bringing them to the table. Since I've started playing them (shortly after their fifth edition dex) they've been pretty lacking in viable options. The best lists are often gimmicky or very repetitive. I can't really just go through the dex, pick units, and be effective on the table. No matter how good a general I may, or may not be.... what options come out of the dex are way too big a factor in whether I'll be successful. With the Full Company though, I could bring 6 units of Tac marines, which I've always seen as a unit that is decently effective, and in the hands of someone who can really leverage them, can be downright frightening. I'd have plenty of options, and even after the full company would have points to fill out the company with upgrades, a couple more units, or to ally something in. Free transports gives almost limitless tactical options. I want to go into a game and be able to change up the strategy before ever placing a model down, and know that it's still an extremely viable strategy. I might not win tournaments or anything, and that isn't even my goal. It's to feel flexible with what I bring. I just want to play Warhammer 40k, with vehicles, armor saves, real options from my codex, allies.... that sort of stuff. I'm getting awfully tired of looking through my Tyranid dex and feeling like it's just an entirely different game (let's call it Tyranid 40k) that GW does less to support than Warhammer 40k. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 I know the feeling, dude. My Nids have only hit the table a couple of times since their last Dex dropped, because I just don't have fun running them anymore. I'm basically all SW or Daemonkin or AdMech at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Let's go with the formations: Demi-Company (See above) Anti-Air Defence Force - 1 unit of Hunters - 1 unit of Stalkers Benefits: - If one Hunter hits a flyer with the main weapon, all Stalkers in the unit get +1BS when firing at this flyer. Restrictions: - Unit of Stalkers: Mínimum 2 1st Company Task Force - 3-5 Units from: Termis Assault Termis Sternguard Veterans Vanguard Veterans Benefits: - Fear - Fearless - At the beginning of the game, pick an enemy unit. Units in this formation have Preferred Enemy against the picked unit - Enemy units get -2 to L, if they are a 12" of a mínimum of 3 units of this formation Restrictions: None Strilke Force Ultra - 1 Captain - 2 Termi squads - 2 Assault Termi squads - 1 Venerable Dreadnoght - 1 Stormraven - 1 LR Crusader or Redeemer Benefits: - All units stay in Reserve. Start rolling on your turn 1. - After coming from reserves, or disembarking, shooting weapons of the Termi squads get +1 shoot (For Example, Assault Cannon becomes Heavy 5) - When disembarking from a transport, assault Termi units get +1A. Restrictions: Captain must have Terminator Armour All units must enter via DS, unless embarked in a Transport. Reclusiam Command Squad - 1 Chaplain - 1 Command Squad Benefits: - All units at 6" benefit from the Fanatic SR, not only the Chaplain unit Restrictions: - Unit must purchase a Razorback. Chaplain may not leave the command squad. 10th Company Task Force - 3-5 units of: Scout Squad Scout Bike 0-1 Telion Benefits: - Precisión shots during first turn - If the unit has not the Stealth SR, they get it until the move, shoot, charge, etc. Restrictions: - Scout bikes must purchase the mines. Storm Wing - 1 Stormraven - 2 Stormtalons Benefits: - Make only a reserve roll for the whole unit - Stormraven gets the Strafin Run SR, if at least a Talon is alive. Restrictions: None Centurión Siege Breaker Cohort - 2-4 Assault Cent squads - 1 Ironclad Benefits: - If they destroy a Transport, unit inside the 2D6 S6 AP4 hits, Ignore cover. - Reroll to penétrate vs buildings Restrictions: None Land Raider Spearhead - 3 Raiders of any type. Benefits: - See previous posts Restrictions: None Librarius Conclave 3-5 Librarians Benefits: - Pick one Librarian, This guy knows all the powers of any Lib of the formation at 12". Those Libs may not cast powers this turn. Picked Lib harness warp charges with 3+ if one Lib is at 12" or less. If 2 Libs at 12" or less, harnessing is with 2+. Restrictions: None Armoure Task Force - 1 Techmarine - 0-3 TFC - 3-5 Units of Vindicators Predators Whirlwinds - 0-1 Chronus Benefits: - Ignore crew shaken and stunned if at 6" of a Techmarine or a Techmarine gunner - Thechmarine and Techmarine gunner get +1 to Ominissiah rolls (repair vehicles) Suppression Force - 1 Whirlwind unit - 1 Landspeeder unit Benefits: - One landspeeder may pick an enemy unit at 12". Whirlwinds reroll to hit vs this unit. If the picked unit is out of range of the whirlwinds, the may fire ignoring it. Restrictions: None Buff, that was a big one .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrainFireBob Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Yeah. Who compulsively collects 3 of each tank? THIS guy. Free transports is pure win. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 I specified High S Attacks. He's got nothing like the MotF's S8 AP1 Servo Arm Attacks. Also, 24" is not long-ranged. That's basic small-arms fire range. His firepower is strong, but it's not long-ranged, like the Conversion Beamer is. It's more like 30" due to being relentless, but I agree the beamer has more range. That said, if you take the beamer, you don't have any of those servo arm attacks. Anyway, he isn't a tax for my DA, as they lack the MotF option and have only the 50pt techmarines (which I doubt you think are better than the Dominus). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 I love Nids, I love the fluff and mentality behind them. I just hate bringing them to the table. Since I've started playing them (shortly after their fifth edition dex) they've been pretty lacking in viable options. The best lists are often gimmicky or very repetitive. I can't really just go through the dex, pick units, and be effective on the table. No matter how good a general I may, or may not be.... what options come out of the dex are way too big a factor in whether I'll be successful. Thing that kills me about tyranid players is their unwillingness to evolve their playstyles. You've got fortifications, ally access to ALL armies via come the apocalypse allies, a great FW selection, and a dozen GW PDFs with new units within. And yet, you fixate on only your codex and complain that you don't have enough options. It is mind-boggling. If I was fielding tyranids and I thought the marines had a neat unit that would fill a role my tyranids needed, I'd convert some "infested marines" from starcraft and get them on the table. Heck, might even get an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with a Futurama Brain Slug attached to order Loyalist marines to do my bidding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 1450 gets you the following: Captain & Chappy 6x5 Tacticals w/Combi-Grav & Grav Cannon 2x5 Assault Marines w/2 Flamers 2x5 Devs w/4 Grav Cannons 10 Free drop Pods Add an Aegis with Comms for what, 80? That's 1530 Add 10 Deathwinds. That's 1630. 220 Points? Two dreadnoughts with Free Deathwind Drop Pods? That's 12 Deathwind Drop Pods 20 Grav Cannons and 6 Combi-Gravs 4 Flamers Two Dreadnoughts 62 Marine bodies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indytims Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 10 free drop pods.... Isnt that like 350 points for free? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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