Dark Elf Generals...

[Raindog]

What is mean in your list?

 

What can be abused?

 

What are one plus must have units?

 

What units stink?

[Kremmet]

1) Mobile shooting.

2) Large groups of warlocks with a pack of masters leading them.

3) Nothing.

4) Harpies and Sisters of Slaughter.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Harpies and Sister of Sluaghter are so OP.

 

Two units of Warlocks to spam Doombolt.

 

As for mobile shooting I haven't seen too much crazyness yet. Dark Riders are good but not great with needing at least a 5+ to hit most turns with S3 is not scaring Rank and File. The Chariot bolt thrower has not seen any action at Ordo yet.

 

Being able to take 4 Reaper Bolt Throwers is kind of nuts. More so than the mobile range support. Could be wrong and have to try it but if 4 are taken the gunline will wreck face on even the high armor units. (4 RBT could take out a unit of monsterous cav in 1 turn for 280 points and they will have at least 2-3 turns of shooting if the DE player sits back.)

 

I haven't seen any used yet but all the battle reports I have seen about a Witch Elf/CoB horde is as nasty as it looks.

 

No hero builds like the Unkillable Lord yet and they seem solid but not OP.

[MexicanNinja]

What is mean in your list?

 

What can be abused?

 

What are one plus must have units?

 

What units stink?

Mean units:

Level 4 sorceress with dark magic- +5 to cast with relatively low casting values

Death Hag on Cauldron of blood w/obsidian blade-It's mean, but she only has 2 wounds w/a 5+ ward save

30 Executioners w/cauldron of blood w/death hag and witch brew

Untis of 10 Warlocks or 2 units of 5 warlocks-the first is hard to shift, the second is a cheap level 2 mobile caster spam

 

What can be abused:

multiple masters w/great weapons, sea dragon cloaks, cold ones- it's like 95 points to get 3 S6 great weapon attacks on a 1+ armour save characters

mutliple units of warlocks

4 reaper bolt throwers- only 280 points to get 4 of these things

multiple hero dark magic casters for doom bolt access

 

What are 1+ must have units:

This is a tough one.  It really comes down to the play style you are going for.  For me, I have 2 cold one chariots which I live by.  They are tough hard hitting units.  I like 2 reaper bolt throwers because, well what dark elf or high elf player doesn't.

We all know I like to use 3 units of dark riders as well.  Cheap redirectors, they can harrass the flanks very fast and can clean up small units on their own.  However, if most of you have played the army.  The difficulity is engaging them.  They don't really do a whole lot of game changing shooting.

 

What units stink:

Medusa- this this is just stupid and a waste of points

Harpies- too expensive to use as redirectors and they take up special points

Sisters of Slaughter- Not worth their points, they have no survivability outside of melee and you won't waste points on a unit of more than 10

Fleetmasters- Trash, straight trash

Assassins- no point in wasting hero points on these when you can take masters on cold ones

[MexicanNinja]

Harpies and Sister of Sluaghter are so OP.

 

Two units of Warlocks to spam Doombolt.

 

As for mobile shooting I haven't seen too much crazyness yet. Dark Riders are good but not great with needing at least a 5+ to hit most turns with S3 is not scaring Rank and File. The Chariot bolt thrower has not seen any action at Ordo yet.

 

Being able to take 4 Reaper Bolt Throwers is kind of nuts. More so than the mobile range support. Could be wrong and have to try it but if 4 are taken the gunline will wreck face on even the high armor units. (4 RBT could take out a unit of monsterous cav in 1 turn for 280 points and they will have at least 2-3 turns of shooting if the DE player sits back.)

 

I haven't seen any used yet but all the battle reports I have seen about a Witch Elf/CoB horde is as nasty as it looks.

 

No hero builds like the Unkillable Lord yet and they seem solid but not OP.

I have to disagree with you on harpies and sisters.

 

Harpies aren't worth it, IMO, when you could get better results with just 5 dark riders.

 

Sisters OP?  Please show me how.  This unit is straight garbage if it isn't on the flank of something.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I have to disagree with you on harpies and sisters.

 

Harpies aren't worth it, IMO, when you could get better results with just 5 dark riders.

 

Sisters OP? Please show me how. This unit is straight garbage if it isn't on the flank of something.

LOL.!.?!!

 

I was being so full of it. Saw it mentioned and just wanted to be a smartass. Not like Eric would believe it for a minute.

 

Infact if anyone takes them to the OFCC they should get bonus points just for the point sink.

 

In fact if anyone wants Harpies I have two Avatars of War units I got before the new book came out. (No buyers remorse, really. ;) )

[HeroZero]

What is mean in your list?

 

Large block(horde) of wyches + cauldron, multiple units of warlocks, executioner horde, lvl 4 on Pegasus with darkstar cloak

 

What can be abused?

Multiple warlock units, huge volume of attack units, quad RBT, triple of both monsters.

 

What are one plus must have units?

Wyches, warlocks, cauldron, harpies and dark riders

 

What units stink?

none are total boners, but biggest lose are spear elves

[ratrek]

1: Witches+Cauldron / Exec's + Bloodwrack / Warlocks / Spammed Fast Cav Masters (though spammed CO characters are being en vogue too)

2: Spammed Fast Cav Masters + Warlocks

3: Warlocks

4: Sisters of Slaughter / Harpies

[McNathanson]

Great replies guys!  Definitely the Warlocks stand out to me as a little too good, but hopefully tournaments like OFCC can block multiple units of them.

Also regarding spamming characters… I don't quite get the abuse… I mean, I get that a front line of Masters is tough to beat in CC.  I would think a unit of them isn't any different than any other super-hard fighting unit, and they're still really expensive in numbers.  How many is "spammed"?  How many in a single unit?  Curious how are they being used?

[MexicanNinja]

Great replies guys!  Definitely the Warlocks stand out to me as a little too good, but hopefully tournaments like OFCC can block multiple units of them.

 

Also regarding spamming characters… I don't quite get the abuse… I mean, I get that a front line of Masters is tough to beat in CC.  I would think a unit of them isn't any different than any other super-hard fighting unit, and they're still really expensive in numbers.  How many is "spammed"?  How many in a single unit?  Curious how are they being used?

Here you go:

 

5 masters with great weapons, heavy armour and sea dragon cloaks get a 2+ armour save on dark steeds and a 1+ armour save on cold ones.  They are less than 100 points each and you can get a frontage with 15 S6 attacks and all attacks back at them need to individually pick out characters.

 

The usual spam is 3 of them mamma jamma's.  You basically spend the same number in points on 3 of these guys as you would a unit of 10 CoK's, consistant S6, either faster movement with the same save as a knight, or 1+ armour saves on cold ones.

 

If you toss them in a unit of warlocks, you just vanguard, and start charging.  You move the characters to the front and go to town on the flanks of your enemy.  It's not being used by anyone in Ordo, that I'm aware of.

 

All of the above is still before you take magic items.  You could give one of them the stuborn crown, so now they just hold something in place, you can tack in all kinds of magic items for different kinds of goodness.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

500 points of a hero choice would take up most of the hero points not leaving much for a BSB and such. Also if they do this no CoB. Feels like you pick your poison here.

 

It would be nasty to run three bare heros on steeds but that will be a huge investment ripe for attacks and spells that ignore armor.

[MexicanNinja]

Not that big of a deal, you are charging units on turn 2 with with 5 characters., or possibly turn 1 if you don't go first.  You have the ability to cross 24" of the table before the game starts, with the vanguard.  You have a charge range of 9"+the 2 highest dice of a 3 dice charge distance roll.  You could get 6 masters on dark steeds and one of them could be a BSB for under 625 points in a 2.5k game.

 

You stick them in a unit of 10 warlocks and you don't care about lore of metal.  You allocate wounds to the warlocks and get 4+ ward saves.  You can also make LoS rolls for them and pass the saves that disallow armour saves to the warlocks as well.

 

This unit doesn't die easily.  You then take those points and get a mobile level 4 caster on a dark peg w/cloak of twilight and can still take a dreadlord on dark peg w/ogre blade, talisman of preservation, and ToTS.

 

You can still spam 4 reaper bolth throwers, chariots, hydra's and crossbowmen for shooting and combat support.  The trade off for spending the points on characters instead of CoK's is in the dark elf player's favor.  Again, you get better WS, consistant S6 attacks, and can pass saves onto a model with a 4+ ward save.

 

This option was one of the first things which attracted my attention.  There is a reason I haven't run this option in any games yet.

[Dark Trainer]

Thanks for the thread. Been trying to find a source for what I need to do to my OLD 'meh' Dark elves (previous army book).
 

No one likes Hydras anymore?

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I see now MN. I thought you were talking about running the Masters as a unit of 5 masters only and thought that would be a big risk. A Master spam in a Light Cav unit is a different story.

 

Dark Trainer: Hydras are now 'good' not 'under priced, must take two'. Having no Regen Save makes them more likely to die before they get to hit. But if they do get to hit and stomp they are good.

[MexicanNinja]

@Murphy, yeah, I was just pointing out the potential spam.  The only way to make it work is to stick them in a unit of brolocks.

 

@Dark, Hydra's are the biz.  If your opponent doesn't kill them in a single turn, they will probably be sticking around for longer than they wish.  I was sceptical at first, then once I tried the new Hydra rules, yeah, very good.  The new Dark Elves are like the old High Elf book....ridiculous.  You get 2 sets of re-rolls in close combat against 95% of what you're fighting.  Remember how High Elves used to Clown Dark Elves?  We Clown High Elves now because of Hatred (High Elves).

[WarlordGhrom]

I for one want to take a unit of 10 sisters if I can for the OFCC.  I know they suck, but I just hope that I can get them in combat once.

That and I have a good idea for count-as models if I can find where I hid them...

[MexicanNinja]

I'm pretty sure this post has something to do with OFCC.  I think he may be working on the DE units.

[Raindog]

I'm pretty sure this post has something to do with OFCC.  I think he may be working on the DE units.

 

 

Winner!

 

I am trying to limit the bent and make the experience as fun as possible while letting DE generals take a while variety of units.

 

What restricts or limits would DE Generals place on themselves?

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Winner!

 

I am trying to limit the bent and make the experience as fun as possible while letting DE generals take a while variety of units.

 

What restricts or limits would DE Generals place on themselves?

I don't mind limiting what has been listed so far. My list will have more elements that other Generals might not use. Like the Kharidyss.

[McNathanson]

Winner!

 

I am trying to limit the bent and make the experience as fun as possible while letting DE generals take a while variety of units.

 

What restricts or limits would DE Generals place on themselves?

 

I'd personally be fine with 1 unit of Warlocks maximum, 2 Reapers maximum, and 3 Masters maximum (incl BSB).  I think that should take care of most of the truly obnoxious DE-specific builds.

[MexicanNinja]

My thoughts, and keep in mind I'm not taking Dark Elves to OFCC so this isn't because it has an effect on my army:

 

1) 10 warlocks max.  Either a unit of 10 or 2 units of 5.  Even with two units you still need a decent roll to get off two bolts and you are limiting your other casting.  If you just say one unit max, I would field a unit of 20 and call it a wrap.

 

2) If you are going to limit Dark Elves to only 2 RBT then the same needs to happen to HE.  They are both able to spam 4, at the same cost.

 

3) I really don't think you need to restrict Masters.  You get incredible outcomes with only 3, you can take a death hag for your BSB and still run 2 dreadlords (if you are going combat heavy instead of magic).  There are ways around only having 3 masters.  That, and I have yet to see anyone do the trick we've been discussing.

 

4) Limit Witches to the same max you have for savages.

 

5) Limit Executioners to a certain number.

 

6) 2 Hydra's max.

 

 

I could continue, but here's the real problem with Dark Elves.  Unlike most of the other books, we don't really rely on spamming mutliple units of the same type (I spam Dark Riders because I love mobility).  Dark Elf players have a ton of good choices to fill for multiple roles.  I.e. I want a unit I can have a quick punch with before sending in the troops....chariots, hydra's, cauldron, kharibdys, black dragon, shrine.  I want a unit to hold the line for my heavy hitter to flank....witches, blak guard, warriors, even knights.  There are just too many different combinations to choose from with this book.  However I think my above suggestions should be a good start.

[McNathanson]

True, the Masters limit could probably be better handled by just rejecting lists with character spam combos (like 2 Dreadlords and 3 Masters on Dark Steeds).

I would be happy if both HE and DE were limited to 2 Reapers, but that's also a matter that could be handled by rejecting gunline lists individually (e.g. 3 Reapers isn't that big of a deal with no other shooting and limited magic, and it's potentially totally un-fun with a bunch of shooty Dark Riders, Warlocks, etc.)

Seems like 10 Warlocks is a great rule, maybe the only necessary one?

 

And then let a DE expert like MNinja look over and reject individual DE lists that are abusive :)

[Fixxer]

I would agree that the 10 warlocks is possibly the one rule... their point cost is laughable. I do like their fluff and style but they are extremely powerful. 

 

I dont like the Idea of restricting character usage. If a person likes to max their characters out, that should be fine. I do see MNs point of the combo of a bunch of Masters in a block of Warlocks right in your face turn one, YIKES! That is a great combo which might be a red flag if the rest of the army is offensive as well.  

 

I dont think that BTs need to be restricted, nor any BS based shooting. 

[MexicanNinja]

True, the Masters limit could probably be better handled by just rejecting lists with character spam combos (like 2 Dreadlords and 3 Masters on Dark Steeds).

 

I would be happy if both HE and DE were limited to 2 Reapers, but that's also a matter that could be handled by rejecting gunline lists individually (e.g. 3 Reapers isn't that big of a deal with no other shooting and limited magic, and it's potentially totally un-fun with a bunch of shooty Dark Riders, Warlocks, etc.)

 

Seems like 10 Warlocks is a great rule, maybe the only necessary one?

 

And then let a DE expert like MNinja look over and reject individual DE lists that are abusive :)

I don't think I'm a DE expert, by any means, because I seem to not like the internet unit options.

 

I play a heavy dark rider list with 2 RBT's and a unit of 5 warlocks.  The shooting is "meh" most of the time.  I charge things with my warlocks more than use them for magic.  My level 4 tends to use all the dice, 95% of the time.

[Norrad]

What is mean in your list?

 

What can be abused?

 

What are one plus must have units?

 

What units stink?

This really depends on why you are asking.  If this info is purely for curiosity sake and fun game play then great and I have some thoughts. But if you are asking to modify the current rediculious comp system that the OFCC is using for this year then No I dont have any useful info to inject.